Magic System Proposal

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Post by nmaguire » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:07 pm

And paying 10000 gold for a teaching room isn't money based?

The magic book for rune system seems like a great idea. How about having a small chance to gain the pages by doing crafts and stuff? Or library research, eg. "You start reading a book, and find a page that doesn't appear to fit with the rest of the book. On closer inspection it is..."
Oh, on second thought, Velask mentioned that one.. but still.

I suppose if you really wanted, the pages could spawn on the ground like herbs - eg. "You see a page being blown along in the wind..." Might be a bit stupid though...
In fact, you could stick them in almost any craft - "While cutting down a tree, you see a folded up page being used as part of a birds nest..."
"While fishing, a page floats along the river in front of you, you quickly grab it..." (like maps)
"While mining, you see an odd crack in the wall above you, it seems to have some paper stuffed inside.."

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Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:17 pm

1. Make mage char be application only like some other races on Illarion. The application to be done before a char is made. This would allow the game not to encourage so much leveling yet still limit the "everyone is a mage" wish.
2. Open up the teaching rooms allowing teachers more flexibility in where they teach not making them HAVE to join something. Program the basics of number of runes etc. in the teaching room or bhonna.
3. Allow those that passed the application and made a mage char to get the level one runes (subject to how this works out ig possibly level 1 and 2) by NPC without needing to learn ancient. Ancient would have to be learned for the higher levels...books given by the teacher as it is now.
5. TAKE AWAY the terrible PGing required for the student and the teacher to get and give runes. You are asking a RP char to want/enjoy PGing....if some leveling is needed do it in other ways.
6. Mages have been nerfed since I have been ig.... please don't nerf more by taking away some spells *sighs*


As far as #3 and the idea of:
The idea, as presented by Velask, is what I am also in favour of. Just think about the hype about collecting pokemon cards, collecting rune book pages might be alike. So, you have the 2nd page out of the RA (Fire) book and exchange it with somebody who offers the 3rd page of the HEPT (Ice) book... Win-win!

The liberty of such a "system" can result in many ways to obtain the rune book pages, a high degree of freedom is guaranteed. And always, you can give a rune book to a student, so you can also play pure student-teacher relationships.

Personally, I give this approach a clear go! But an idea is not sufficient: it needs a clear assignment how to get which rune book page in what way. I'd prefer some random here, so you can get e.g. page 4 of the RA (Fire) book in many ways, not just by bashing some monster, mindlessly.
I think it gives PLENTY of options, for those PO's not quest mode players also, along with options besides the "bashing of monsters" I like the idea that groups of mage students can get together to exchange runes received also. They can always get the runes from a teacher too.

Throwing out some random ideas:
(would be nice if this is arranged somehow where ONLY mage chars can pick up the rune so fighters/crafters won't be able to get/sell them.)

RA.. mages are weak so would need to find a figher to help them on this one: go to the maze at the dragon cave and some of the elementals can "drop" a rune.

RA/any low level rune.. find all the altars and ask for a gift from the gods at each... rare but sometimes may get a random rune. (would get more chars out exploring gobaith also)

RA/any low level rune... can get just a random rune from their good RP as a "gift of the gods" gm and player based (set up an addition in the call gm page to add one for "good RP" from player to player).

any low level rune... add to the Irundar quest.

(may add more as ideas come)

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Post by AlexRose » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:02 pm

nmaguire wrote:And paying 10000 gold for a teaching room isn't money based?

The magic book for rune system seems like a great idea. How about having a small chance to gain the pages by doing crafts and stuff? Or library research, eg. "You start reading a book, and find a page that doesn't appear to fit with the rest of the book. On closer inspection it is..."
Oh, on second thought, Velask mentioned that one.. but still.

I suppose if you really wanted, the pages could spawn on the ground like herbs - eg. "You see a page being blown along in the wind..." Might be a bit stupid though...
In fact, you could stick them in almost any craft - "While cutting down a tree, you see a folded up page being used as part of a birds nest..."
"While fishing, a page floats along the river in front of you, you quickly grab it..." (like maps)
"While mining, you see an odd crack in the wall above you, it seems to have some paper stuffed inside.."
Problem is, mages aren't crafters. All these new methods are encouraging pgers, fighters and crafters to get runes.

It's nice to have a system that encourages roleplaying. Really what we need is to stop getting so stingy with BHONA, unlock the doors, take the password off the teaching room, let the only restriction of teaching be the scripted 2 runes a week per student limit. Let anyone with BHONA teach and give BHONA to any full mage who wants to teach without them having to pass some exam or whatever you have to do nowadays. You remember before the council stepped in when people were finally complaining about too many people having magic? For years we tried to get that system to work to that point and then they decided to ruin everything and set us back in square one, and look where the teaching system is now. The whole council thing was a complete mockery and all the bull that they started needs to be undone. They've failed. Even the rune level category swap was an epic failure. Just revert back to 2007's system and all will be good.

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:37 pm

AlexRose wrote:
nmaguire wrote:And paying 10000 gold for a teaching room isn't money based?

The magic book for rune system seems like a great idea. How about having a small chance to gain the pages by doing crafts and stuff? Or library research, eg. "You start reading a book, and find a page that doesn't appear to fit with the rest of the book. On closer inspection it is..."
Oh, on second thought, Velask mentioned that one.. but still.

I suppose if you really wanted, the pages could spawn on the ground like herbs - eg. "You see a page being blown along in the wind..." Might be a bit stupid though...
In fact, you could stick them in almost any craft - "While cutting down a tree, you see a folded up page being used as part of a birds nest..."
"While fishing, a page floats along the river in front of you, you quickly grab it..." (like maps)
"While mining, you see an odd crack in the wall above you, it seems to have some paper stuffed inside.."
Problem is, mages aren't crafters. All these new methods are encouraging pgers, fighters and crafters to get runes.

It's nice to have a system that encourages roleplaying. Really what we need is to stop getting so stingy with BHONA, unlock the doors, take the password off the teaching room, let the only restriction of teaching be the scripted 2 runes a week per student limit. Let anyone with BHONA teach and give BHONA to any full mage who wants to teach without them having to pass some exam or whatever you have to do nowadays. You remember before the council stepped in when people were finally complaining about too many people having magic? For years we tried to get that system to work to that point and then they decided to ruin everything and set us back in square one, and look where the teaching system is now. The whole council thing was a complete mockery and all the bull that they started needs to be undone. They've failed. Even the rune level category swap was an epic failure. Just revert back to 2007's system and all will be good.
Again, stop trying to reinvent the wheel. The wheel is good. Teach people how to use the wheel instead. And alex again has a good point with this would encourage other non-mage characters to get runes instead of mages themselves.

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Post by Retlak » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:41 pm

The people who complained about there being too many mages IG were in a time when Mages were capable of killing 5 warriors at once, a lot of scripts has changed since then and now mages have almost an equal chance of killing just 1 single warrior. Magic is weakened, so there will be no more worries about "Too many mages being IG" please.

The current magic system isn't a wheel, it's a square and we need to add in a lot more sides (the ability to get runes without needing a lazy, innactive teacher) in order to get it closer to a wheel.

The people who decline well-thought out proposials like the one Velask brought up, are the people who are too afraid to accept change on anything.

If we had a system like Velask suggested, newbies who come to this game will want magic usually as normal, by the time they get a quarter way through they'll realise how hard it is and most may quit magic, but not quit the game because they've already settled in, they may make crafters or warriors and we will have more players.

Currently, newbies come to the game and have to post about 20 messages everywhere just to get "oh you have to wait for a free space in a few months and try really hard to impress a teacher who can't even be arsed to log in to teach anyway." I can guarantee that's why most newbies don't stay.

I don't look at this magic system proposial thread as the name, I look at it for a way to gain a larger player base.

-Matt

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Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:55 pm

...the ability to get runes without needing a lazy, innactive teacher
Please remember this is a game. IF the problems outweigh the "fun" for players (and mage teachers are players first), they won't play their chars. Most of the older mage chars I have talked to that have elected to quit playing have done so due to frustration followed by indifference. You can circumvent this a little by not having mages "teach" others in the low level runes. There will still be a problem with the higher levels unless you negate the teacher/pupil roleplay altogether as in the druid system. Not to be called "RP elitist" but do we want most professions ig to be all leveling and no RP...(I guess that is up to the devs. I can only speak my two cents)? Yet to keep older players ig (and I have not seen one older player that I have NOT learned from as far as the wonderful RP done), there should be a good balance between attracting new players and keeping the older players which I assume is what these proposals are about... the system obviously not working as it stands now.

Will it decrease the frustration of new players yet still encourage them to join IF a mage char was application only? It would give them a chance to get ig, play their other char, hopefully enjoy the RP... I am not sure but think it may be a better system then making the leveling so hard you hope some will quit *shrugs*. Would it keep older players playing if there was less restrictions on the teaching aspect and less PGing... not sure again on that but it makes sense.

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Post by Retlak » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:12 pm

This is a skill based game, there are a few people who remain trying to cling on to the "RP only!" side of it.
Kaila wrote:Please remember this is a game. IF the problems outweigh the "fun" for players (and mage teachers are players first), they won't play their chars.
Great, then you are in complete understanding that this is a game and the current magic system is no fun for anyone.

-Matt

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Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:25 pm

Retlak wrote:This is a skill based game, there are a few people who remain trying to cling on to the "RP only!" side of it.
Kaila wrote:Please remember this is a game. IF the problems outweigh the "fun" for players (and mage teachers are players first), they won't play their chars.
Great, then you are in complete understanding that this is a game and the current magic system is no fun for anyone.

-Matt
Quoted from the front page
Illarion is a free, graphical fantasy game that focuses on true roleplaying.
. The skills and focus are the balance described. Yes, I agree the current system is no fun for anyone which is ..and just a guess.. why some no longer play their mage chars.
:wink:

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Post by Retlak » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:09 pm

You KNOW very well that the front page is just for advertising to make sure people who come here can RP. Inside the game, It's either skill or lose out.

But sorry to go offtopic, let's get back onto topic.

-Matt

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Post by Fooser » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:14 pm

Bring back the 200 coin books from 6 years ago!

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:16 pm

Fooser wrote:Bring back the 200 coin books from 6 years ago!
oh god no. i don't think i've had that much if you put the wealth of all my characters over the last two years together.

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Post by Fooser » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:22 pm

Image

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:39 pm

Please remember this is a game. IF the problems outweigh the "fun" for players (and mage teachers are players first), they won't play their chars.
You could apply that on mage students as well.

Anyway, now that we understand that mage teachers are players, I'd like to point out that the above is just an example of something: The players in general are fickle and completely unreliable. No matter how the current system is balanced, there's no guarantee at all that the players who play the teachers would actually deliver their promise of the 'system working' and the willing being taught magic any more efficiently than now. There are two reasons for this. First of all, these players are only speaking for themselves as teacher-players when they give their opinion. The fact that there are even different opinions about this shows that what works for one player sucks for the next, and one of those will get frustrated under whatever excuse/reason and consequently will no longer teach. Secondly and more importantly, people who claim that changing something will result in a fixed system are actually making promises in the name of the future mage-teachers (who may or may not agree at all). Once the current mage teachers become inactive at some point, we'll have this same discussion all over again with the new mage teachers who'll say "Because Nitram didn't give us all archmage rings and fly personally over to -location X- to thank me and kiss my ass for teaching, this system sucks, change it plz".

Merry go round.

The basic assumption about dependable players on which the system relies on is absurd. The only tangible result is that the magic system will continue to be unreliable (Because when the princess players don't like it, they won't do it! Nah nah nah naa!), noobs continue to be smiled over by the system and the teachers alike, and limited scripter time will be spent on tweaking something which will never reach a 100% dependability. Of course, those people who like the system and have teacher chars will love the way they have a fresh stock of slaves and toys to choose from "to support their important and impressive RP, and to keep those peasants who fail to amuse and interest us away from learning this very very serious and important stuff".

You have first given a limited group a unprecedented power and monopoly over a whole aspect of the game, SO BLOODY OF COURSE THEY'LL FIGURE OUT ANY POSSIBLE EXCUSE TO RETAIN IT AND FIGHT TO THE TOOTH AND NAIL AGAINST ANY REFORM. They have incredible vested interest here, both the unhappy and demotivated group and those who've got a hardon for the current way of handling things (both want their personal pickles tickled, so to speak). Sultan instead of the Sultan and all that.

Players don't deserve to lead. You can never ever count on that to work, because players are by definition an X-factor. The whole system has wrong basic assumptions and seems to have been created for the wrong reasons, namely to support "very important" Rp-ego tripping instead of assuring that we actually have something that works.


EDIT:

Sounds harsh about players, but that applies to everything else too. Imagine why we have NPC's selling stuff instead of a 100% player dependability. I hope you get the picture.

"I'm the only smith in game, so you HAVE to buy your armors from me! That'll be 10gps and a blowjob for a chainmail, take or leave it!"

Btw, I like what Velask suggests a lot. That would make it easy to add difficulty levels for runes and give the noob mages-to-be a way of actually *doing* something (other than being a toady brownnoser) to actually learn magic and study it.

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Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:26 pm

You KNOW very well that the front page is just for advertising to make sure people who come here can RP. Inside the game, It's either skill or lose out.
Matt, I will agree not to agree.
Sounds harsh about players, but that applies to everything else too
I don't think so, a profession shouldn't have to depend entirely on certain players in order to advance. If discussing simply advancement as a mage I am hoping that will be taken away from players. It would be nice if some of the RP remains but I have NO answers for that and am glad I don't have to decide either!
:D

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Post by Joxini Baenra » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:51 am

Hey!

I am a mage looking for a teacher.. I know ill be around town looking for a long long time but half the fun is learning about the other people and RP. Even if i never find a teacher i will still play this character just because of all the people i know. One day i do espire to be a great Wizard but for now its just me.

~Joxini the elf~

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Post by Rekarafi » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:48 am

Uhm...try the RP board or ingame...this is the wrong topic

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Post by Joxini Baenra » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:54 pm

Ahhh ~dur~

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