Magic System Proposal

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Post by Mesha » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:23 pm

Magic System Proposal

As Estralis so graciously suggested, we could discuss a potential change in the magic system here.

Issues
I have been watching the thread myself with great interest, and noticed the following issues under our existing mage-base, and under the potential mages:

-Runes are hard to obtain (issue we can work on)
-Learning magic, OMGPGing the skills, is hard (issue we can't work on, only propose upon)
-Teacher-based system has it's merits, but it promotes dependence (issue we can work on)
-Teachers do not accept everyone (issue we cannot work on, because it often lies within RP backgrounds, but this issue should be solved if we solve other issues)
-New players chosing mage as their starting package cannot be a mage (issue we can work on, see above)
Out of the posters, one made a very good proposal how to change the way how magic is taught, elsewhere. But as a matter of fact, our scripters and developers are overburdened with other issues than reinventing the wheel the fourth time. In special, they won't make up a complete set of e.g. NPCs with their dialogues.

NPCs can teach runes, as you can review here: http://illarion.org/development/us_scripts_comm.php

So, everyone can help as soon as there is a concept. We can discuss about a good concept on the proposal board, but a concept is more than an idea. "Let NPCs teach runes" is not a concept. "NPC A teaches rune B upon delivering item C" is a crude concept element, a first start, nothing more. So - help Illarion with your ideas, Illarion is one of the few games where you can change things you don't like on your own!
As you can see in the quote above, we are more than happy to accept proposals and more, however, you would also be the one helping to implement the proposal.

Now, what I would propose, is a mixed system. NPC-based, and teacher-based.

The benefit of this is, is that aspiring mage characters do not have to wait ages to enjoy their game. Teachers will not be flooded with requests of aspiring mages to teach them, and teachers would not be overburdened (three students per teacher limit).

The lower-class runes can be taught through an NPC, who requires an item to be delivered to him. Or several items for that matter. The benefit of this is, that you can give new mage-players some of these items for free so they can be taught their very first spells and runes. Or, better yet, allow their runes to be part of the starting package. These items can ofcourse be acquired in many ways. Perhaps the lowest of the lowest rune-items can be bought at certain NPCs, and be something mundane (a candle!). Other items could be acquired through monsters on rare occasions, or perhaps even given out during quests.

Beginner-mages, fresh from noobia, could for instance be given KEL, RA, ORL and KAH. The very basics of a mage, handy yet not too powerful for a new character.

Flaws in my plan!
-No idea of what kind of item requirements would fit
-Whether more steps in "Rune-quests" (quests by an NPC to get a rune) are feasible
-Which runes fit in which category

Ofcourse, if the community at large dislikes this idea feel free to voice yourself. Propose additions, changes, whatever! Perhaps even an entirely different system. However, keep in mind that any proposal must be reasonable. The community would have to help with NPC scripting (no worries, it's not that hard. Perhaps Estralis can pull out some example NPCs), and any daring development stuff could take months, because the developers are currently occupied with different things.

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Post by Djironnyma » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:36 pm

In general i think its needed that at least simple runes give by npcs. So long it are real quests and nothing like the old npc-techers (bring me a potion and you get a rune ....). i image exploringquest (walk to x, y, z) - knowledge questions (history, rune names, race-backround, ect) or little doungens.

that runes given instant for npcs is a crappy idea i think. even if you would give them lhor they will not be able to handle... it will just bring trouble, everyone knows which remember the time were you could read some rune in library

for rune "classes" well i can give you the rank we teach runes via PM do what ever you want with these information,....

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:11 pm

PMed.

Dji's mini quests sound like a reasonable approach, collecting such mini quest ideas is never in vain. Anyone?

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Post by Rincewind » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:15 pm

What schold I say? It looks fantastic to me. Make the first steps by your own, and then search (maybee) some experienced Player-teachers to learn more about magic.

Like Djironymma said; some nice looking and not too stupid-simple quests would be nice.

best greets
Rincewind

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Post by Pellandria » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:28 pm

Please never include itemhunting in magic teaching quests, I remember the sacrifice stones a few years back and the knowledge what must be sacrificed was spread in days, well it was not so hard to figure out the clues, but yeah.

Furthermore I would like to see the npc teachers not giving attack runes ORL, KAH, MES and PEN is safe for everyone, because I fear some people would just go ahead and get their attack rune just to annoy other poeple and as the mes pen spell is nerfed down next to uselessness anyway it won't be such a big annoyance.

For the npc itself, is it possible to make him choose from several questions?
Because I allready can imagen what happens with a new player: "HI I want to become a mage" "Allright go to xyz and say magenta troll of madness", having a few questions to choose from atleast expands the time somones giving out the answers for free and maybe include a certaint limit of answers, something like "the next three wordsyousay will count" or something like that, but I fear that might not be possible as the npc script doesn't work like this.

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Post by nmaguire » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:30 pm

Please never include itemhunting in magic teaching quests
Why not? Seems like a good idea to me, maybe put them in hard to reach places for higher level runes, so they need to team up with higher level mages or other players to help them get the item.

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Post by maryday » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:38 pm

mrm. maybe the first step achieved through rp from teacher.
((though there might be npc driven quests to "show" your future teacher your "ability"?))

then the apprentices/novices/awakening/whatever could be sent on "pilgrimage" (depending on magical faction selected), having to complete different, repeating tasks, which would also require the repeated use of special, already known runes, to "fortify the knowledge".
((for beginning mages, low on cash, npcs trading goods for mana potions might be scripted,
or an accepted novice might achieve allowance to receive a set ammount of potions from a npc regularly[like 2 each dwarven week,
or so :twisted:]))

making the first step available by npc quests might lead to an, maybe unwanted,
ammount of awakening persons.

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Post by Pellandria » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:40 pm

High level runes should not be included anywere except for the later teacher position, the problem is, what does one gain from a simple fetch quest
"Here have a merinium bar"
"great here get your rune"
"Hooorayyyy..lets kill people!" fetch quests are normaly annoying, boring and have no real purpose except drawing items out of the game, having questions on the other side makes the players look at illarion lore and maybe thus enabling them to make a char with more depth and also preparing them for what is to come in their mage education later on.

Furthermore with giving only lowlevel runes out you actually would to use low level items so its not even a "struggle" to get the runes after all and then avfter wasting a few days, they would probaply stop playing aswell, if they see that they still need to wait months till they get a new teacher.

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Post by Athian » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:41 pm

Basically this is the same as i idea i proposed in the general topic through all the ranting and what not.

NPC's should teach a variety of basic spell/rune combination's. Firstly I'd like to scrap the concept of runes levels in general. Instead we can base which runes are taught by what spells they produce. NPC's would only teach common mans spells, like fire balls and ice balls, healing and so on. If we were to only allow NPC's to teach runes that were level one for example, it would leave a 'mage' with a some disjointed an unusable runes. And i can imagine this would just make new mage players frustrated.

It would be better to decide what spells we believe the common mage might have as opposed to a schooled or apprenticed mage. It might seem difficult to do but there are some basic's everyone could agree on.

@ pell: one can annoy people just as easily by PGing slashing weapons and hitting them with a sword as a person could by going out of their way to learn a weak offensive spell. I see no reason to make a bias on offense spells

My idea of a basic spell is a minimum effect spell using two runes and rarely three, for example

fireball (RA KEL)
Iceball (HEPT KEL)
healing (MES PEN)
small food spell (ORL KAH)
Door opening/closing (ANTH KEL)
put out camp fires (CUN SAV)

These aren't very powerful spells so I doubt they will cause the space-time continuum to collapse in on itself. If one wants to learn more spells afterward they must apprentice themselves or join a school. If they are satisfied with these small spells then they need not.

As to the NPCs that teach runes for these spells, if possible they could have multiple requirements before giving a rune to a potential mage.

Potentials would need for example:
1. X% ancient language skill to start the quest (this would require of course ancient becoming more accessible).
2. The NPC could then require them to have X% of skill in another profession (look^^ we could make library research useable^^)
3. could ask for knowledge via communication (NPC asks a question that must be answered using certain key words or phrases)
4. In some cases require an item (NPC might ask for an item that represents a rune. RA(fire) NPC, might accept more then one item: Lit torches, Lit candles, Pure fire. More difficult items might be rewarded with small skill boosts as well)


I got more thoughts on the matter but i need to sort them together, but that's my basic idea^^

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:58 pm

i have one MAJOR issue with this, and i would guess that many other people have this as well. let me explain.

I bring to attention the old potion system which was pulled OUT and made more exclusive because EVERYONE could make potions, meaning being a druid was nothing special. The same would hhappen if NPC's started giving out runes.

If you make it so NPC's can give out runes you need some way to control WHO gets them.

One: idea is have NPC teacher located in the magic Academy'S, students need a key to get in, given to by a player. However this key can be passes around and thus abused.

Two : That they first need to become a registered student before they may be taught. I think this "Registering" of students should still be done by a player, or a Very complex NPC. This would mean one mage or a handful, could clear 20 mages or more a day for their first runes.
2a. This could be as easy as making the NPC's want Badge (1) for the first rune. Badge (2) for the second. And the teacher would decide if the person is ready for it, before giving them the badge. Again these can be passed around, though not as easily as the would only be good once. Mage teachers could simply collect more from the NPC if they run out. For this I suggest Teachers have names manually put on a list that the NPC checks to see if they really are a teacher, there should not be THAT many teachers so this should be fairly easy.
2b.Or maybe make a spell that acts like an NPC quest point thing. Where getting the spell makes quest status go from 1 to 2 thing... And if quest status is not 2 then the NPC says "you are not ready" ext ext ext.

Third: You already need some skill in magic, this would mean anyone who choose the Mage starter package would be good to go, but anyone else, would need to apply for their first runes, from there, they may be taught by the npc till they need a real teacher again.

Fourth: Have it so you need some minimum stats, say 12 or 13 in each intelligence, wisdom, and essence. (Don't like this idea as previously stated on diferent thread because i do not think abilities should be able to stop you from doing things. Massively hinder you? Yes. Stop you? No.)

Fifth : Some combination?

My thoughts.

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:07 pm

Athian wrote:
Potentials would need for example:
1. X% ancient language skill to start the quest (this would require of course ancient becoming more accessible).
2. The NPC could then require them to have X% of skill in another profession (look^^ we could make library research useable^^)
3. could ask for knowledge via communication (NPC asks a question that must be answered using certain key words or phrases)
4. In some cases require an item (NPC might ask for an item that represents a rune. RA(fire) NPC, might accept more then one item: Lit torches, Lit candles, Pure fire. More difficult items might be rewarded with small skill boosts as well)


I got more thoughts on the matter but i need to sort them together, but that's my basic idea^^
Not sure I like your spell list but I do like Idea one, and am disappointed in myself that i didn't think of that (nice job). 3, is also good and i am not sure about idea 2. This would simply mean you have people PG'ing and essentially useless skill so they can get their runes. 4.

I do not think giving skill boosts for more expensive items should be done. I am a casual player and make very little money, it is not a goal I have and I do not think magic should be money orientated. It gives to much advantage to those that play for long hours and make lots of money. Also, in the fantasy genre Magic rarely cares for wealth.

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Post by Athian » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:09 pm

I disagree with anything that uses keys or in some way bars entry to players via other players control. That's just as problematic as the teaching room lock down.

Not anyone can learn magic. They need at least a basic amount of attributes to receive even a single rune, so that is no problem. warriors are not just going to go pick up runes at the NPC since they won't have the ability to learn the rune. Even if they did somehow they wouldn't be able to use or teach them ever.

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Post by Rincewind » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:16 pm

The druid-system found a way to be able learned by your own. Without a teacher. But it's still difficult enough to avoid a storm of potionthrowing mob. (As we are able to see)

So maybee you put the healing spell in the startpacket. So the Newbie has something to conjure.
For further simple Runes, you have to spend a lot of IG-time or find a person who helps you (teacher)
smiilar to the druids

This IG Time includes
- Research in the background of Illa or IG
- barriers by script (maybee you need a innocent child to open a magic book, for you?)
- complexe/difficult quests
- maybee puzzles ?
- and so on

And if you want to be a superior Mage, you need to find a Teacher.

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Post by pharse » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:39 pm

1. In order to limit the access to magic to real mage characters I am in favour of an attribute minimum, like
INT + WIL + ESS >= 40 and minimum (INT, WIL, ESS) >= 10

2. You want a NPC supported magic teaching system? Then there is one possibility for me to implement this in less than 4 years: Gather NPC specifications so a dev can script a NPC template which can be filled with content in 10min. Firstly this is very restrictive to the variety of the quests. Secondly you have to specify as detailed as possible. Thirdly think of definite quests for those NPCs.

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Post by Pellandria » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:44 pm

We got this minimum allready more or less, its now at 30 points with the three categorys combined,don't make it too high or we will jsut get maxed and minimised mages and never any "balanced" out ones.

The only problem I really see here..if we start giving out ancient books to learn magic than ancient will suddendly become a common language, because people allready do give away their books orsell the, making ancient "useless" as its not "secret" anymore.

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Post by Aldan Vian » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:48 pm

I don't like the idea of npc mage teachers...I LOVE how hard it is to become a mage, it creates alot of RP situations, and its one of the most rewarding crafts in game should you master it. Just having to do a quest doesn't seem like much work for the power magic offers...even at a simple level.

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Post by Llama » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:22 pm

The problem with magic is that its very very very very very powerful.

Also while NPC quests are fun, people help each other. I mean I got the sacred water of Irundar because I went with a guy who knew how to do it.

So if we're going to have lots of mages, we either need to tame down magic - or throttle how much they can learn.

I mean the QWAN spells kill with a few blows, and the DUN QWAN are the reason that the SB/TB war was over in less than 30 seconds.

So I'd say, remove the runes/spells which can be abused (including the wall creation one), and an NPC collecting would work well.

But some spells are too overpowered even for current mages to use.

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Post by Athian » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:31 pm

As i mentioned above NPC's would only ever be teaching small spells, like fireballs, iceballs, healing and so on. What does that have to do with QWAN and DUN QWAN spells?

I don't think a single person has yet made mention of NPC's teaching QWAN or DUN or other runes that make spells uber.

What exactly needs to be toned down in magic then? I'm alittle confused as to where your going with that

Giving easy access to some minor appeasement spells for beginning mages is about all that really being discussed. We're simply trying to figure out ways of doing so without making it too easy or too hard

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Post by Vern Kron » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:32 pm

Here is what I think, and I am stealing ideas from friends in the proccess:

Newbies should be able to start with very, -very- weak spells. Like, you couldn't kill a player with it if you tried really hard. Atleast not at first.

Teachers should still be around. In times of a lull in teachers, a gm should hold a magic convention or something.

Remove the teaching skill limitation, as in, "You must have X skill to teach Y rune." Teaching rooms are still interesting, but perhaps should be more opened.

Certain spells only are obtainable through teachers. Some spells are obtainable through quests. Such as, "You have reached the very depths of the graveyard. Your spirit has been tested, as has your mind. Here lies the secret to the Minor Healing spell." And, ofcourse, there should be heavy limitations as to how that works so that there isn't ooc of, "OH, hey, old friend of mine who made a new mage character, let me just go with you to get you your runes real fast!"

Maybe that if you get a spell from the quest way, you get a minor, (very minor), set back on skills, but if you go through a teacher you get a little bonus.

As for ancient, either take it out, or make it so the newbie spells don't require it. Also make it so that not all newbies have spells, just the mage ones and that they aren't getting the mage spells and crafter attributes.

Just ideas I had.

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Post by Athian » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:39 pm

How about for ancient books we make them a one time useable item that you get in your mage/battlemage starter package. This would make them less likely to be traded. IT would of course give only a few levels of skill but language skills i can't imagine being that difficult to raise. All you gotta do is talk after all

Or perhaps we can make a sort of leveled book system. You use ancient book 1 it vanishes(thus can't be traded) then you need X% improvement to use Ancient book 2 for another little boost, it too vanishes. Then the rest you do on your own.

This way we don't have to remove the skills use in magic or a students need to learn it over time.

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:13 am

keep ancient, keep the books the way they are, just don't make them common.

I don't think that the magic system should be massively overhauled and i think that we should stop thinking that the NPC's are replacing teachers, only limited to lower spells, they should instead assist the current teachers. I don't think real player teachers should be taken out of the equation all together, we just need to make their job easier.

Newbies should not start with magic, this would cause mass problems with Role play. If they are to "start with magic" perhaps require an application before this can happen, just like with special races. Which is another idea all together.

Don't remove skill limit for teaching runes, "Get powerful runes from powerful mages" however, remove the ability limit.

I also like the magic is hard to get and should not be toned down (I am currently trying to become a mage with one character and have RPed myself TWO teachers [which left the game for Real life reasons]) and I still don't think it should be changed much at all.

Magic rooms should be purchasable for other Academies. Plain and simple. Price? Make it balanced, it should also require some pure elements for building and be expensive.

Something where the teacher can clear people for teaching, would mean teachers could clear 3 or 4 times the amount of people they could teach. Thus a good idea.

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Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:00 am

In order not to have every char ig be a mage and still allow a mage char to avoid
EVERYONE could make potions, meaning being a druid was nothing special.
which is very true now.

1. Make mage char be application only like some other races on Illarion. The application to be done before a char is made. This would allow the game not to encourage so much leveling yet still limit the "everyone is a mage" wish.

2. Open up the teaching rooms allowing teachers more flexibility in where they teach not making them HAVE to join something. Program the basics of number of runes etc. in the teaching room or bhonna.

3. Allow those that passed the application and made a mage char to get the level one runes (subject to how this works out ig possibly level 1 and 2) by NPC without needing to learn ancient. Ancient would have to be learned for the higher levels...books given by the teacher as it is now.


5. TAKE AWAY the terrible PGing required for the student and the teacher to get and give runes. You are asking a RP char to want/enjoy PGing....if some leveling is needed do it in other ways.

6. Mages have been nerfed since I have been ig.... please don't nerf more by taking away some spells *sighs*

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Post by nmaguire » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:30 am

Estralis Seborian, the GM brought up a very good point; if anyone has any good ideas or concepts we should let them fly.

Everyone knows that there is a variety of problems with the magic system even though some would rather not talk about it or compromise it.

So we know there's a problem; what do we do about it?

I have a few suggestions.

On my way from college to work I was thinking about a few possibilities, and then a thought occured to me. How cool would it be if you had to take trials to earn your runes? For example, to earn the fire rune you'de have to goto the bottom of a volcano with a fire guardian, or the earth rune, the middle of a desert with giant antlions, the poison rune, the middle of a swamp with poison spitting creatures, and you'de see a giant stone with the rune on it.

Pellandria had a complaint that he'de rather not see mages degrade into numbskulls tossing around spells that didn't know how to RP and didn't know about Magic Theory

This is a two part problem, as far as them being good at RPing a mage, that would really depend on the person judging them, how to RP a mage is different to everyone. And I don't think the GMs have time to micromanage that, "oh that person is acting more like a fighter than a mage" and the only solution would be to ban the person acting un-magelike (I know that's not a word) which is very subjective in itself.

So enforcing RP is unrealistic in a way, but enforcing knowing Magic Theory? That can easily be done with a system.

Let's say you've braved the volcano with your travelling partners (which would be fun, and an opportunity to RP) and you finally made it to the rune stone (big red glowing stone with a big pic of the rune on it) past all the dangerous fire based creatures, you would start "The Trial of Fire", you would be required to answer 5 questions relating to Magic Theory and Fire Magic (or whatever the corresponding rune is Earth/Poison etc...), if you answer them all right you get the rune! If you fail 3 times in a row, you have to wait a week as punishment, and that would give you another opportunity to study again. This would enforce knowledge and a system where you have to earn your magic, you would still only be able to do 2 trials a week, and you could pay a teacher to learn magic/or them just take an interest to you (money or interest being the incentive/less risky for the student) and still have to answer 5 questions (same criteria), or go on the trial (which is a lot more risky/chance of death with guardians) with some other friends to help out.

And as far as the teaching rune BHONA, once someone has 28 runes, he could apply with a GM for BHONA so it would be GM regulated and not player regulated. Whether you would get the teaching rune or not would be based on if you were a good player (RPd well) and didn't abuse the rules (mindless player killing). And if a teacher becomes one and abuses it, the GM can giveth and the GM can taketh.

As far as learning improving upon the ancient language, I think you should be able to learn this from books, walls in ancient ruins or teachers. And as far as Commotio, Decisio and the magic skills based on the spells you cast, improving them would be based on casting spells of that type (makes sense).

This would make it so there would still be a teacher based system (which can be good for RP in certain circumstances/or the teacher's pocketbook) and a Trial system which would definately be fun and good for RP because it would probably take some friends to survive the trial (pretty tough for a frail mage to brave the dangerous creatures all by himself)

Just some suggestions =)

Josh (Rymar Tarken/Sakumo Hatake)


Retlak wrote:
I read all of that and it sounded REALLY good, the best idea yet. I like the way you took everything into consideration like the 2 runes a week thing. Excellent proposal.

-Matt


I second that! Sounds awesome!
Also, perhaps some of them should be puzzle dungeons, since I'm not sure there's that many monsters as runes.

Here are some of my crappy ideas of what could be in which dungeon:
(Only thing is, I suppose it would require a lot of map design for new dungeons and stuff to put the runes in. If there's noone to do that, I wouldn't mind helping with it.)


1.1.1 CUN - Water rune, so perhaps some puzzles with balancing scales with water or something (not sure how easy that would be to script :/)
1.1.2 FHEN - Perhaps a teleport puzzle, solved by trial and error, or a riddle at the start to show which teleporters to use to reach the rune.
1.1.3 HEPT - Since there aren't really any cold based monsters, maybe have a time limit on how long you can spend in the dungeon, and after that time you "freeze to death".
1.1.4 KAH - Food - Perhaps a riddle with a table of foods in front of you, you must pick the right one to eat, otherwise you incur whatever penalty - thrown out of the dungeon, clouded, stat penalty, whatever.
1.1.5 LHOR-Either a maze with invisible walls, or a room like the one in Irundar over water with an invisible floor maze.
1.1.6 MES - Rune of light, so perhaps a dungeon in complete darkness in which you are a given a light that extends 1 tile in front of you, and you must make your way through the dungeon avoiding traps on the floor. (should be visible in the light you are given)
1.1.7 ORL - rune of creating and materialisation - I'm not really sure for this one. Perhaps a question dungeon related to magic (as well as/instead of question at the end), with the questions becoming harder and harder as you move through the dungeon. The penalty for a wrong answer are monsters spawns of increasing strength.
1.1.8 PEN-Just have the rune in the dungeon, easily accesible, but make the dungeon quite hard to find.
1.1.9 RA-Fire elementals, or dragon. Elementals would probably be better for a level 1 rune.
1.1.10 SAV - Protection, so perhaps the hopeful rune reciever is reduced to 1hp on entering the dungeon, with no health regeneration, and his teammates must protect him from mummies?
1.1.11 SOLH-Earth, so one or two golems to fight, not many, as it's still level 1 runes.

Level 2
1.2.1 ANTH-Normal maze, but with static fires blocking some places.
1.2.2 IRA-Dungeon full of undead
1.2.3 JUS-Couldn't think of one :/
1.2.4 KEL-Some sort of puzzle thats only passable if the person doesn't stop moving-eg a maze with a strict time limit, that is quite easy to get through but requires fast thinking.
1.2.5 SIH-Poison spiders, since it's heal poison.
1.2.6 SUL-Anyone in the dungeon becomes encumbered, to slow movement, and if possible, fireballs move across the room which need to be dodged.
1.2.7 TAH-Inverse, so a maze in which you are given the opposite instructions of what to do and where to go.
1.2.8 TAUR-Panthers and gnolls
1.2.9 URA-Ogres and trolls
1.2.10 YEG-More poison spiders

Level 3
1.3.1 DUN-Simply a dungeon full of nasty things, such as beholders.
1.3.2 FHAN-FHAN is the rune of sending, bringing and giving. No FHAN spells have ever been recorded... (If no spells, nothing needed?)
1.3.3 LEV-LEV is the rune of change and transportation. It is an inactive rune which has no use. (If inactive, nothing needed?)
1.3.4 LUK- Demon skeletons/Ghost skeletons/Liches
1.3.5 PHERC-A dungeon full of traps on the floor that must be avoided.
1.3.6 QWAN-VERY strong monsters, eg. dragon, demons


I just thought I'd shove this into the proposal board, since it was on the thread in general.

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Post by Djironnyma » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:41 am

Yeah, kill, kill, monsterkill, powergame, and monster kill - .....great.....

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Post by nmaguire » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:03 am

Alright, suggest something better then. Newb mage #47 isn't going to be able to do a lot of that stuff without help, because he'll be a mage with no runes.

If I was a mage (which, fair enough, I'm not) I'd choose this over not being taught magic because either hardly any teachers are active or because they won't take any students because the students aren't impressive enough or whatever. Also, it's about half and half between puzzles and monsters.

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Post by Velask » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:33 pm

My idea is for some sort of multiple part rune books.

Each runebook has several pages that need to be collected first in a manner of ways.
  • Researching in the library,
    Performing simple quests for NPC's,
    Battling monsters,
    Trading with other players,
    Finding in ancient dungeons,
And so on.

Once the required pages are collected they can be used together to make a runebook. The student can then read the runebook and be rewarded with the corresponding rune. The runebooks can require certain skills/attributes to be read thereby allowing for a suitable tier system.

New mages can go out and hunt down pages on their own if needs.
Old mages can build libraries of collected runebooks for teaching purposes.

In order to spread a bit of lore and knowledge, the runebooks can be read like normal books that detail things about magic and the rune in particular. Meaning, techniques, rituals, spells, stories and legends etc etc etc.

If you're worried that established organisations will get around the skill limits (or even dont want skill limits) and teach everything in 30 seconds. Have the books be 1 time use or something. (Data 1 = Active Book, Data 0 = Inactive Book) And you can keep the knowledge of books while limiting the spread of runes further.

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Post by Retlak » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:38 pm

Wow, I think Velask has the best idea so far.

-Matt

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Post by Rekarafi » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:53 pm

Velask wrote:My idea is for some sort of multiple part rune books.

Each runebook has several pages that need to be collected first in a manner of ways.
  • Researching in the library,
    Performing simple quests for NPC's,
    Battling monsters,
    Trading with other players,
    Finding in ancient dungeons,
And so on.

Once the required pages are collected they can be used together to make a runebook. The student can then read the runebook and be rewarded with the corresponding rune. The runebooks can require certain skills/attributes to be read thereby allowing for a suitable tier system.

New mages can go out and hunt down pages on their own if needs.
Old mages can build libraries of collected runebooks for teaching purposes.

In order to spread a bit of lore and knowledge, the runebooks can be read like normal books that detail things about magic and the rune in particular. Meaning, techniques, rituals, spells, stories and legends etc etc etc.

If you're worried that established organisations will get around the skill limits (or even dont want skill limits) and teach everything in 30 seconds. Have the books be 1 time use or something. (Data 1 = Active Book, Data 0 = Inactive Book) And you can keep the knowledge of books while limiting the spread of runes further.
Yay, this one roxx!

But...everyone could become a mage with some moneycollecting-powergaming and buy these books...
You could do these quests and sell the books...and thats not the way supposed to be, i guess.

The idea is kewl, but needs some changes...ill think about it.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:37 pm

The idea, as presented by Velask, is what I am also in favour of. Just think about the hype about collecting pokemon cards, collecting rune book pages might be alike. So, you have the 2nd page out of the RA (Fire) book and exchange it with somebody who offers the 3rd page of the HEPT (Ice) book... Win-win!

The liberty of such a "system" can result in many ways to obtain the rune book pages, a high degree of freedom is guaranteed. And always, you can give a rune book to a student, so you can also play pure student-teacher relationships.

Personally, I give this approach a clear go! But an idea is not sufficient: it needs a clear assignment how to get which rune book page in what way. I'd prefer some random here, so you can get e.g. page 4 of the RA (Fire) book in many ways, not just by bashing some monster, mindlessly.

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:43 pm

i don't like this idea. magic will be made way to common. I really do not think the magic systems needs that great a change. we just need more teachers. not some crazy quests that will make learning magic money based. and yes, once you start learning magic like this, it's money based.

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