Is Magic a broken system?

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Post by Retlak » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:00 pm

Pellandria wrote:Ahh to the beloved Matt, just some facts:
Where you there?
No
Do you cared to ask for logs?
No
Do you cared for listening to the whole story?
I actually think we can say no here
Do you want to discuss this whole thing without spewing falme wars, because you obviously don't know what happend...?
No.
Drop It.

-Matt

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Post by Athian » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:12 pm

@ Pell

I find it strange that i somehow left with three students? are you telling my whom my student are and aren't? Since Athian has no use of teaching rooms he has only been having ONE STUDENT AT A TIME tyvm. When studnet have been accepted by Athian which is very rarely they have been told that they will be taught when the former student is completed. That they did not want to wait is no fault of mine. Simply it is due to the fact that I had to teach very slowly. I didn't know you were playing my character for me, reading my logs and monitoring my activities so acutely that you knew when i was and wasn't teaching, yet at the same time had no idea of when and when I am not playing.


Pellandria, get out of the conversation. no one wants you here, you provide nothing but fuel for fights with your attempts to slander other people. Play your own character and shut the hell up please. You are not the community, You are barely a part of the community so stop trying to force back the tide.

So Pell, take your foot out of your mouth, take a deep breath, STFU for a few minutes then explain to us all exactly what you want of the teaching system. Because all your doing is providing NOTHING. No idea, no concepts nothing. So no matter what you say and how hhard to B#$%^ and moan, your never going to get anything you want, because no one even knows what that want is.

OR, and here's the best suggestion. Just go away

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:15 pm

Pellandria wrote:
So for another thing, that has not yet catched on, how about we make a second entrance into the academy room, obviously this way noone would need to pay for a natural room and noone needs to join the academy as such, that "backdoor" access is given to every "free" teacher we have by now, as it will spread and won't matter in a few months anyway, you will be able to use the academy grounds, without accesing the academy itself, leave the academy if you must or see the need to it, that kills two birds with one stone...first of all we don't need to bug lennier to build a natural room and mages who are not a member off the academy, who could do run crazy with said runes, will only hold responsible for their own actions, makes that everyone happy?
Ummm. No. couple things. First we would need to bug Lennier anyway. Second, this is just asking for someone to control it, which is why I suggested one of the Sirani islands and the builder could just claim that no building can take place on these islands do to enviromental conerns(nice one Alex). Third why would anyone need to pay for a "Natural"room. I thought it was self explanatory that anything natural is simply found. meaning no one would have to pay for it. However it does seem that everyone can agree that a nuetral teaching location will help the situation so can we get our "builder" or one of the other dev's to ok this?

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Post by nowitzjt » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:15 pm

LOL @ Athian telling Pella to STFU (I'm literally laughing my ass off right now)

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Post by Aust » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:20 pm

Retlak wrote:
Drop It.

-Matt
Athian wrote:
Pellandria, get out of the conversation. no one wants you here, you provide nothing but fuel for fights with your attempts to slander other people. Play your own character and shut the hell up please. You are not the community, You are barely a part of the community so stop trying to force back the tide.
nowitzjt wrote:LOL @ Athian telling Pella to STFU (I'm literally laughing my ass off right now)

With that said, I think the current system would work fine if we just had teaching rooms reachable for the public (or remove the teaching room concept completely), and more teachers with BHONA.

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Post by Athian » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:29 pm

Yes it seems most agree that free access would be quite a step in the right direction. The academies could even keep their own if there were even one that was usable to everyone. But i state again that simply adding more player characters with BHONA won't be a complete fix. I'm still for NPC quests taking some of the heat off of the teachers. allowing students to help themselves to some degree is always nice.

Also it means we could avoid the witch-err teacher hunts. I recall a nice point in time where if you even mentioned a magic teachers name in a public place he or she could become instantly swamped by potential students. I know i ran away plenty of times, guilty as charged :lol:

I can try to cook up some NPC but some idea's would be helpful as to what kind of tasks and quests are possible and the length and numbers of parts the quests should entail, any suggestions are helpful ^^ and of course anyone willing to help out too.

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Post by Pellandria » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:31 pm

I guess thats worth atleast one warning for obviously just wanting to insult me, you want me to repeat a concept agian and again?

So here we go.
1. Include a mage application system while you create an account, a "mage" char is only different from the normal char in terms of having an ancient book, the ancient book gives away the language skill and is useless afterwards, the mage application can be done by an gm, thus we don't have biased people, atleast not as biased as chars ig.
2.Give every char the chance to get a runebook, runebooks are made up from several runepages.
3.Runepages themself are found about everywhere libarys/monsterdrops/randomly while crafting/ one random page spawn on one random spot on the whole island every rotcycle and so on
4.As soon as you read a runebook it gets useless forever or even gets deleted.
5.Runebooks give every "basic" rune aswell as some "advance" runes, the skill in ancient decides aswell how good your spells are, you can aquire a ancient book, that can be reused, via gm quests or just spread them among every teacher and every full fledged mage that is currently played ig.


Because such a system, of course, needs time to be programmed I offer a "dirty" fix for all those who want a "natural" or "free" rune room, there will be a second entrance for the academy rune room, either complettly free or it takes maybe a few coins to enter, however it is done you can teach your runes down there, without joining the academy as such, clear enough?

If you really care about the 3 students I told you before you are free to send me a pm, but as you obviously have no interrest in this anyway, you can spare our time.

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Post by AlexRose » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:33 pm

Another big problem with the academy is that it's a pain to get to. As a student I hated how I either had to pay quite a bitof money for portal books or walk a long distance possibly being chased by flies every lesson, especially when sometimes things can be spontaneous. Things are a bit easier now thanks to portals but that only works if everything's worked out on msn.
Last edited by AlexRose on Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:34 pm

Athian wrote: Also it means we could avoid the witch-err teacher hunts. I recall a nice point in time where if you even mentioned a magic teachers name in a public place he or she could become instantly swamped by potential students. I know i ran away plenty of times, guilty as charged :lol:
lmao. this is what i get now on a larger scale, i just get, "hey, you're a fairy... never seen one of those before.." which is usually responded to with "yeah... hi... bye!"

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Post by Pellandria » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:40 pm

AlexRose wrote:Another big problem with the academy is that it's a pain to get to. As a student I hated how I either had to pay quite a bitof money for portal books or walk a long distance possibly being chased by flies every lesson, especially when sometimes things can be spontaneous. Things are a bit easier now thanks to portals but that only works if everything's worked out on msn.
We tried to get our bvery own portal stones, but the idea kind of sanded in..

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:40 pm

Pellandria wrote:I guess thats worth atleast one warning for obviously just wanting to insult me, you want me to repeat a concept agian and again?

So here we go.
1. Include a mage application system while you create an account, a "mage" char is only different from the normal char in terms of having an ancient book, the ancient book gives away the language skill and is useless afterwards, the mage application can be done by an gm, thus we don't have biased people, atleast not as biased as chars ig.
2.Give every char the chance to get a runebook, runebooks are made up from several runepages.
3.Runepages themself are found about everywhere libarys/monsterdrops/randomly while crafting/ one random page spawn on one random spot on the whole island every rotcycle and so on
4.As soon as you read a runebook it gets useless forever or even gets deleted.
5.Runebooks give every "basic" rune aswell as some "advance" runes, the skill in ancient decides aswell how good your spells are, you can aquire a ancient book, that can be reused, via gm quests or just spread them among every teacher and every full fledged mage that is currently played ig.


Because such a system, of course, needs time to be programmed I offer a "dirty" fix for all those who want a "natural" or "free" rune room, there will be a second entrance for the academy rune room, either complettly free or it takes maybe a few coins to enter, however it is done you can teach your runes down there, without joining the academy as such, clear enough?

If you really care about the 3 students I told you before you are free to send me a pm, but as you obviously have no interrest in this anyway, you can spare our time.
i didn't think these where ever YOUR ideas.... but ones everone is currently familiar with, and suggested by other people. However i think everyone else here can take this post of yours as your agreement to the mentioned ideas. meaning that just about everyone is agreed to another, nuetral location to teach.

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Post by AlexRose » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:41 pm

:O

I WANT A MAGIC ACADEMY DIAMOND MUCH LIKE THE TEMPLE BLACKSTONES!

:P

Nosrslythatwouldbesoawesome.

The only problem is if someone else pked you, stole your stone and then couldn't get off the island again because he didn't have the stats to get past the statue >_>

But one to the lighthouse top would be cool.

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Post by Pellandria » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:43 pm

I never claimed to be ~my~ concept, hell i wouldn't even have had a remote idea about the book idea from VELASK, I simply took several ideas together and put up what I think is best, I was just defending the point of the academy earlier on, never said I want it to stay that way, but before that boils up again.

Oh and Alex I mean real townportal stones..no magic portalstones, still would cost 30 coppers but better than 100...

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Post by AlexRose » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:44 pm

No I'm not even joking, if some cultists could make stones like that why couldn't the magic academy? >_>

But anyway that's not really on topic so I guess we should drop that.. for now ;)

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Post by Athian » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:48 pm

Pellandria wrote:I guess thats worth atleast one warning for obviously just wanting to insult me, you want me to repeat a concept agian and again?

So here we go.
1. Include a mage application system while you create an account, a "mage" char is only different from the normal char in terms of having an ancient book, the ancient book gives away the language skill and is useless afterwards, the mage application can be done by an gm, thus we don't have biased people, atleast not as biased as chars ig.
2.Give every char the chance to get a runebook, runebooks are made up from several runepages.
3.Runepages themself are found about everywhere libarys/monsterdrops/randomly while crafting/ one random page spawn on one random spot on the whole island every rotcycle and so on
4.As soon as you read a runebook it gets useless forever or even gets deleted.
5.Runebooks give every "basic" rune aswell as some "advance" runes, the skill in ancient decides aswell how good your spells are, you can aquire a ancient book, that can be reused, via gm quests or just spread them among every teacher and every full fledged mage that is currently played ig.


Because such a system, of course, needs time to be programmed I offer a "dirty" fix for all those who want a "natural" or "free" rune room, there will be a second entrance for the academy rune room, either complettly free or it takes maybe a few coins to enter, however it is done you can teach your runes down there, without joining the academy as such, clear enough?

If you really care about the 3 students I told you before you are free to send me a pm, but as you obviously have no interrest in this anyway, you can spare our time.
*applauds* good good boy, You managed to make a post that didn't take up a page, and you didn't quote a single person. Congratulations, you've become a man (i'll take the warning but someone needs to smack your ego down and I'm gonna do it every time I guarantee you)

Those really don't sound much like your idea's. More of a combination of things Cromwell and Kaila and a few others have said. Put together it seems plausible, but it also seems rediculously complex.

Firstly we need bunches of new items, even if it were only 4-5 parts per rune book if this qualifies 10 runes that's 40-50 new items. I don't see what makes this superior to using NPC's with quests, that can involve anything including library study, monster killing, gathering and riddles or all of the above.

We also discussed before that monster drops will be the wrong way to go with runebook parts. They stand the risk of being collected by warriors and sold off like expensive dishware. Secondly it provides a difficulty for mages whom will have trouble defeating said monsters and have to rely on warriors, and potentially the minority of very powerful ones at that, we want to at least in part remove some of that dependancy, not simply redirect it.

Sitting in the library to collect rune parts is fine, but then why ever go out into the field at all? Just sit around and do nothing. As i stated before this could lead to long bouts of Shift/click->click->cap->log and repeat. Giving the direct reward for simply reading a book doesn't strike me as any good.

Also why increase the GM workload when NPC's in part would reduce this phantom workload of constant request checking? by providing rudimentary magic for some newbies we can appease there desire to use active parts of the system while at the same time still have some use as teachers by teaching more advanced magic.


And finally, You speak of insults but whenever you get heated up all you do is start attacking people. You can say I've attacked you but I believe several people would easily agree that your own words and actions resulted in the response I gave. The fact is you are attacking people then crying wolf. Maybe you deserve the warning as well. Learn to accept that not everyone wants what you want, no matter how rational or well thought out it is, yelling at them isn't going to help your situation or change their minds. Majority will win of minority in the end

Thank you and have a pleasant tomorrow

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Post by Llama » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:10 pm

Athian wrote:Bunches of new items, even if it were only 4-5 parts per rune book if this qualifies 10 runes that's 40-50 new items. I don't see what makes this superior to using NPC's with quests, that can involve anything including library study, monster killing, gathering and riddles or all of the above.
Actually if the 'new items' only need two graphics "Part of Book" and "Whole book" you only need two items, you can do the rest with the data.

Secondly, I would really like it if GMs had the final word over magic instead of player characters. The 'application' is a good idea to ensure that magic doesn't become as common as anything.

And for a dirty fix right now, aside from making the teaching room accessable to all - REMOVE THE 'TEACHER NEEDS SKILL' to teach part.

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Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:15 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Athian wrote:Bunches of new items, even if it were only 4-5 parts per rune book if this qualifies 10 runes that's 40-50 new items. I don't see what makes this superior to using NPC's with quests, that can involve anything including library study, monster killing, gathering and riddles or all of the above.
Actually if the 'new items' only need two graphics "Part of Book" and "Whole book" you only need two items, you can do the rest with the data.

Secondly, I would really like it if GMs had the final word over magic instead of player characters. The 'application' is a good idea to ensure that magic doesn't become as common as anything.

And for a dirty fix right now, aside from making the teaching room accessable to all - REMOVE THE 'TEACHER NEEDS SKILL' to teach part
.
I am not sure it would take much to even make another teaching room accessable to all, wasn't there a post about one in Tol?

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:18 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Athian wrote:Bunches of new items, even if it were only 4-5 parts per rune book if this qualifies 10 runes that's 40-50 new items. I don't see what makes this superior to using NPC's with quests, that can involve anything including library study, monster killing, gathering and riddles or all of the above.
Actually if the 'new items' only need two graphics "Part of Book" and "Whole book" you only need two items, you can do the rest with the data.

Secondly, I would really like it if GMs had the final word over magic instead of player characters. The 'application' is a good idea to ensure that magic doesn't become as common as anything.

And for a dirty fix right now, aside from making the teaching room accessable to all - REMOVE THE 'TEACHER NEEDS SKILL' to teach part.
one thing at a time. and if i am to understand the system correctly it would be better idea to make it so that the only requirement for magic is the>30 thing. if i heard correctly you need certain attributes to be high in order to teach certain runes.

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Post by Athian » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:36 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote: Actually if the 'new items' only need two graphics "Part of Book" and "Whole book" you only need two items, you can do the rest with the data.

Secondly, I would really like it if GMs had the final word over magic instead of player characters. The 'application' is a good idea to ensure that magic doesn't become as common as anything.

And for a dirty fix right now, aside from making the teaching room accessable to all - REMOVE THE 'TEACHER NEEDS SKILL' to teach part.
And i see where your coming from with the applications idea. But then whats the basis of the applications? Whats the deciding factor that makes newbie A more worthy then newbie B? Is it his story? because a good story doesn't always mean a good roleplayer. Is it his time spent IG? For that who will monitor the characters actions and even then what actions will qualify that he or she is worthy of magic? How long does one need to play the game before applying for a mage character?

I don't want to leave things entirely in the hands of player characters either, we've seen how quickly that fails. But at the same time applications don't help to increase the the number of students that can taught and I don't think it will increase the speed of teaching either. You'll either be too 'new' and have to wait awhile anyway or newbies will be accepted from the start, so why bother applying?

If we use these books and other such things you can't control the number of mages anyway. Anyone with proper attributes that collects the desired items will be able to learn magic. Unless its somehow hard coded into all characters that you can't use the magic system without some sort of activation from a GM. This will just drive away all the people who don't get accepted, because they will feel slighted, but this time not by player characters but by the staff. I don't really see the problem with letting would be mages sort of sample some of the lower magic spells on there own. Its not anything that very dangerous or disturbing to the other players, and you don't have to worry about masses of badly rp'd super powered mages.

Maybe an application for learning higher magic, but still allowing them to learn lower end magic might work out nicely though

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:05 pm

Athian:

The application can actually be done in two parts. Firstly, there can be an automated part which is simply such: A button next to your character that says: Become a mage

Technical limitations (which are told to the players)
- Minimum of 10 int (required to learn ancient)
- Minimum of 30 int/ess/wp (required to be a mage)
- Minimum of x online hours for a new account (total newbies spend a couple hours IG familiarizing with the controls and game)
- After that, any char with fitting stats can elect to become a mage.

Then, the automated application can be done at any time (so this is nothing you have to choose during the creation of the char). It gives the character ancient skill, which will then be the only possible way of gaining this skill. No more books or such. This is simply to adress the issue of non-mages knowing the contents of rune-parts/books if they come across them one way or another.

Second part of the application is done as a real application:

The ability for the character to learn the QWAN DUN WHATEVA uber-runes. This is done by sending an actual application of somesort to the gamemasters, who'll have to approve you before your character is physically capable of learning the most powerful runes. I realize that this will take away GM time from other purposes, but it would be a nice cross between the suggested systems: Some degree of oversight regarding who gets the power-magic, done in a way which does not in fact depend on the player RP-police.

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Post by Velask » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:43 pm

Applications to be a mage?

What a load of elitist nonsense.

Why dont you let us take care of the mages who DO become problems, rather than trying to prevent it in the first place?

Afterall, the noob pkers will get through anyway.

Pah applications.

Besides, I've already started working on the runebook concept.

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:18 pm

Well, makes plenty o' more sense than applications for a goblin, if you ask me.

EDIT: And those applications would, in fact, be in conjunction with the rune-book concept.

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Post by Retlak » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:52 pm

Seriously, applications are not good.

The temple used to recruit people using a strict application form, we didn't get any members, then we decided to just let people in imediately under a probation period, we got a shit load more people and almost all of them have been excellent so far.

How hard is it to report a mage for shitty rp using the !gm function (they stand out enough anyway), than to have to read through and filter applications from mages who could probably be perfect but are not given the benefit of the doubt.

-Matt

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Post by AlexRose » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:02 pm

They should be happy they don't have to do the illarion account essay application :P

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Post by Llama » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:51 pm

@ Matt:

Because magic is, and always will be, overpowered. You can do pretty much ANYTHING with magic. So if it becomes incredibly common, then fighters will start to suck (or powergame magical resistance) and we'd end up with walls, flames and summoned animals everywhere.

So an application form even keeps a tab on how many there are.

I'm not saying they should have to write the equivalent of LOTR, but even something simple.

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Post by Retlak » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:53 pm

You worry about things that haven't even happened yet, and don't even have too high a chance of happening.

Open up a little.

-Matt

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Post by Llama » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:03 am

Oh come on, like you never summoned docile creatures to fill up workshops or islands

I know I did :P
-

People will be more angry if you take their runes away because there are too many mages, then if you just make them work a bit

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Post by Retlak » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:04 am

... No one is going to take runes away for there being too many mages. They'll take their runes away if they DO smile up with shitty rp.

-Matt

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Post by Llama » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:10 am

So how would you address the fact that there will be too many mages running around? Nerf mages?

I'm all for giving every n00b and their cousin basic runes, but I don't think that these mages should be able to cast anything which remains on an area (walls) or use anything with QWAN in it. Fireball and iceballs don't hurt that much anyway.

Of course if this clause was already stated, then sorry for repeating it. I didn't read all of this, seems most of it turned flamey anyway.

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Post by Retlak » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:26 am

Hadrian_Abela wrote:So how would you address the fact that there will be too many mages running around? Nerf mages?

Too many mages isn't even a problem, It's a worry that you've came out with for yourself.

I do agree that walls and like should not be amongst any noob mages though, for annoyance reasons.

-Matt

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