Is Magic a broken system?

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:04 pm

The only thing bothering me is fighters getting the runes, yes they may not use them but I can picture them selling them. Is there anyway to script so only a char with mage stats can pick one up? I like the suggestion of Pancho also. It allows an either/or without any char having to absolutely depend on a teacher or really needing one yet gives that option for classes/RP along with their "teacher" helping in some quests and doesn't make one "apprentice" have to be with one "teacher" except for the RP.

as an aside:
I can say 100% that the 18 month wait and the crap I had to go through (bugging Silas every week on msn for hours because he never wanted to teach, going through with his tasks (e.g. collect 250 mana potions, had to sit every day at greenbriar buying 5 at a time because then the npc was sold out and spent 125 silver on them) was not as bad as the powergaming of ONE skill for 30-50 points.
Being able to "use" a skill has actually improved greatly since then IMO however it is still pretty much impossible to do offensive spells without QWAN on anything but very high level skills however healing and non-offensive spells work well.
Bullshit, I got 40% in one day when it was raining outside. I even had a friend who got 40% with me that day, who Arien caught and slapped his bollocks untill he couldn't cast anymore.
As I recall you were impressed that Dale managed to get his commo to 50 within a day and still had 2 hours left over when he was caught.
A conundrum.... don't PG yet the leveling almost requires it. :/

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:15 pm

Kaila Galathil Travinus wrote:The only thing bothering me is fighters getting the runes, yes they may not use them but I can picture them selling them. Is there anyway to script so only a char with mage stats can pick one up?
What is bad about this? Why would such a limitation be necesary? They might sell them, or even give them for free to a mage-friend. If it's a requirement to know ancient to determine the contents of the portion or even a whole rune-book, with certain stat-minimum requirements in place for actually learning them (like the '30' rule).. where is the problem with fighters picking them up and selling/trading/giving them away/wiping their arses/using them as kindlings/whatever with the partial rune parchments or books?

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Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:20 pm

Mr. Cromwell wrote:
Kaila Galathil Travinus wrote:The only thing bothering me is fighters getting the runes, yes they may not use them but I can picture them selling them. Is there anyway to script so only a char with mage stats can pick one up?
What is bad about this? Why would such a limitation be necesary? They might sell them, or even give them for free to a mage-friend. If it's a requirement to know ancient to determine the contents of the portion or even a whole rune-book, with certain stat-minimum requirements in place for actually learning them (like the '30' rule).. where is the problem with fighters picking them up and selling/trading/giving them away/wiping their arses/using them as kindlings/whatever with the partial rune parchments or books?

Nice! *sends her strong fighter out to make even more loot on selling runes at high prices* That would basically negate most of the quests.... find a friend with a strong fighter on msn and send them for runes for your weak mage.

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:40 pm

Kaila Galathil Travinus wrote:
Mr. Cromwell wrote:
Kaila Galathil Travinus wrote:The only thing bothering me is fighters getting the runes, yes they may not use them but I can picture them selling them. Is there anyway to script so only a char with mage stats can pick one up?
What is bad about this? Why would such a limitation be necesary? They might sell them, or even give them for free to a mage-friend. If it's a requirement to know ancient to determine the contents of the portion or even a whole rune-book, with certain stat-minimum requirements in place for actually learning them (like the '30' rule).. where is the problem with fighters picking them up and selling/trading/giving them away/wiping their arses/using them as kindlings/whatever with the partial rune parchments or books?

Nice! *sends her strong fighter out to make even more loot on selling runes at high prices* That would basically negate most of the quests.... find a friend with a strong fighter on msn and send them for runes for your weak mage.
In what way would that negate most of the quests? You seem to be missing the idea here a little bit: Entire rune books would be -exceedingly- rare drops, found from -difficult- monsters. Farming runes would be really difficult (especially if the rumours about the fighting system are true ;) ). Furthermore, your strong warrior, even if he/she was lucky enough to stumble on rune-parchment or solo a monster which dropped a rune-book, she still would lack the ability to put the parchments together or the knowledge of what's in there. Sure, that would be money for her still, but when it comes to trading the Mage who can actually inspect the contents of the parchment would inherently have an upper hand.

I don't know about you, but being unable to lift a tome from the ground because my char is not a mage would be rather silly.
Reminds me of those diabloesque "You are too dumb to wear this shirt." "It's a fokkin' shirt!!!" - limitations.

Furthermore, the assumption that drops would negate quests or studying is most incorrect. If anything, regular monsters would be nothing but a supplementary source of such items: So farming these monsters would be relatively pointless in such situation (this is not something which I had planned for anyway). More like, you HAVE to fight those monsters to get from A to B, where you are then able to access library/quest/so on C.


At no point did I imply that even this system would be entirely fair: No, I'm sure that experienced players would have easier time setting up groups for raiding the long-since forgotten libraries and whatever. However, it would be *more* fair than the current system nonetheless, where it's either connections or jumping hoops for some player for the uncertain promise of being taught magic. Furthermore, it's actually (even for new players) easier to set up temporary raid groups or partnerships for the purpose of going through a single dungeon than long term, dependable player-to-player RP tutor-pupil relationships, leading to a diminished advantage for long-time players.

Duh.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:24 pm

I'd like to stress a point: It is said nowhere that quests that yield rune book pages have to feature a fight with a badass monster. It is one option; but gathering informations is another option. Or getting certain items. Solving riddles. Dance around with your character. Anything is possible!

And, as Cromwell stressed, raid parties to get hold of something nice, are something good! Interaction is better than mindless powerclicking or annoying players via MSN to teach them.

At this point, personally, I think we should more care about who will implement such a system. The script of the rune book pages is written in no time, but the content such as quests or the library maps, is another issue.

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Post by Vern Kron » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:07 pm

Well, lets stop for a momment.
We have a system now for removing admonishments, by scripting npc's.
We have a system that needs npc's.
Perhaps, maybe, it might be a good idea to get these two things together?

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Post by Azuros » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:26 pm

What we'd need to accomplish this project is this:

2-3 people (maybe less) are needed to be storytellers/writers for the project. They will plan quests, dungeons, and what npcs should say.
As many people as we can get need to code the npcs that the writers request for the quests and dungeons to function.
A few mappers need to design new dungeons/quest areas for the project. They could place these things in areas that are otherwise just vast open spaces.
Naturally, we also need scripters to code the rune books/pages.

I really like this whole idea and hope that it can be done.

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Post by AlexRose » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:39 pm

I'm already working on maps and then I'll probably do the NPCs as well to go with them.

But srsly can someone PLEASE make some vine walls/ice walls etc.?

And as I said before, is illa really only going to have the monsters it has now for all time because every time anyone asks for something that requires more than 1 frame suddenly it's out of the question? We don't have many monsters right now and we don't have themed monsters except undead and forest creatures.

Themed monsters + themed tiles = Win.

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Post by Azuros » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:47 pm

For monsters, if graphics are a problem, why not (for now) simply rename them and alter their stats/weapons/magic?

This might be just a quickfix, but it seems acceptable until we get new graphics.

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Post by Vern Kron » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:52 pm

There are a few more monsters that have been made, however it seems like everyone is out of ideas for monsters, what they should do, what they should look like, and so forth.

As for dungeons, the problem is putting them in spots that aren't too close and aren't too far away. And then finding a space that works.

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Post by PurpleMonkeys » Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:16 pm

Vern Kron wrote: however it seems like everyone is out of ideas for monsters
Birds
Centaurs
Satyrs
Snakes
Bears

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Post by Vern Kron » Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:25 pm

PurpleMonkeys wrote:
Vern Kron wrote: however it seems like everyone is out of ideas for monsters
Birds
Centaurs
Satyrs
Snakes
Bears
Isn't that all sort of.. woodsy?

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Post by PurpleMonkeys » Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:42 pm

Well it's all I can think of.. I'm trying to draw a cave creature at the moment, actually.. although my drawing sucks

Edit:
Wyverns
Imps
Crabs/lobsters

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Post by AlexRose » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:40 pm

Elemental themes:

Dark:
Zombies (In our case mummies), skeletons, demons, shadows, hellhounds, reaper, lich, ghost, Night Mare, Wraith, Banshee, Evil Eye.

Light:
Living Sword, Living Armour, angel, Paladin, Melting Pot, Iubaris, Phoenix, Wizard.

Water/Ice:
Crab, Squid, Angel, Carbuncle, Flying Ray, Land Shark, Maelstrom, Great Turtle, Hydra, Merman, Undine.

Fire:
Will-o-Wisp, Magmin, Fire Elemental, Dragon, Azer, Fire Golem, Efreet, Fire Gargoyle, Salamander, Chimera.

Earth:
Sandworm, Golem, Sand Beetle, Sphinx, Cyclops, False Pillar, Wyvern, Porcupig, Manticore.

Forest/wind:
Unicorn, Mantrap, Hobgoblin, Poison lily, sasquatch, cockatrice, Harpy.

Don't ever for a SECOND say the problem is a lack of monster ideas, I could go on all day.

And I already know good places for all the dungeons.

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Post by Karl » Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:11 am

Why can't we have our OWN monsters? Not general MMORPG monsters?

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Post by Azuros » Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:15 am

I don't really see anything wrong with using monsters from mythologies. It's not as if the other MMORPGs made these monsters up themselves.

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Post by Karl » Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:43 am

It's unoriginal and not as fun.

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Post by AlexRose » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:29 pm

Wow so we have:
Elves (LotR), Dwarves (LotR), Humans (Life), Fairies (Everything ever), Gnomes (DnD), Lizardmen (DnD), Goblins (LotR), Halflings (LotR), Orcs (LotR)

Animals:
Pigs (Life), Sheep (Life), Rabbits (Life), Deer (Life), Cows (Life)

Creatures:
NPC people e.g. bandits (Life)
NPC mages e.g. necromancers (DnD)
Wolves (Life)
Panthers (Life)
Trolls (LotR)
Scorpions (Life)
Flies (Life)
Bees (Life)
Spiders (Life)
Ogres (LotR)
Drow (DnD)
Rotworms (DnD), (although ours also look like Zelda's likelikes)
Gnolls (DnD)
Dragons (Medieval myth)

Undeads:
Mummies as monsters (The Mummy)
Skeletons as monsters (Everything)
Demon skeletons (TES)
Skulls (Zelda)
Ghost skeletons (DnD)
Demons (Christianity)

Other:
Fire elementals (Final Fantasy)
Beholders (DnD)
Golems (DnD)


Note: When I say my sources, I don't necessarily mean that's the original source of these monsters, but that they were used there long before they were used here.

Our monsters are so original.

Now I've not played a zillion mmorpgs but I've never seen these monsters in other mmos (Out of the list of the ones I named):
Shadow, Night Mare, Living Sword, Living Armour, Melting Pot, Iubaris, Phoenix, Will-O-Wisp, Magmin, Azer, Fire Gargoyle, Chimera, Sandworm, Sand Beetle, False Pillar, Porcupig, Manticore, Mantrap, Poison Lily, Sasquatch, Cockatrice, Squid, Carbuncle, Ray, Land Shark, Maelstrom, Hydra, Undine.

And there were plenty more that I've never seen in other mmos but thought "Oh c'mon that MUST be in SOME game it's so obvious" so I didn't include those in the above list.

I've seen them in 1 player rpgs (Which I've played 100s of) but not multiplayer.

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Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:21 pm

Hardly anyone ig has seen the beholders or the rot worms (though graphic-wise they look a little modern to me), nor the greater demon. Can they not be used? Personally I would be extremely happy with about anything, even using older graphic and recoloring i.e. panthers recolored to look like different cats, ice cave with white dragons is another idea.

Other quest ideas:

Instead of having to "kill" a monster someone would need to "avoid" the fire of the dragon enough to get close to it (i.e. once standing next to the monster it would "gentle" and you could then script magic words that would give you a rune, similar to the Irundar quest where the words are found by hunting the man down that talks to newbies advising them to go to Trolls Bane and being able to formulate a specific question to get the magical phrase to calm the dragon. The advantage to this is (and I forgot the name of the man, sorry) he has been found ALL over gobaith from the union to the entrance to the graveyard so no one would know exactly where he would be next. You may even want to script some "tribute" to be brought to him before he speaks to you i.e. seedling fir (which can try to dig or get from a druid), a parchment (from a figher or crafter), and a salmon dish because he is hungry. This would be a good quest to go on after a char gets MES PEN so they can heal while getting close to the dragon.

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Post by AlexRose » Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:32 pm

Demons, Rot Worms and Beholders were used much more frequently in days past, (I saw rot worms and beholders in my first week (In fact I met a beholder in the wild east of TB so I think they even might have spawned at the time) and greater demons within a couple of months) however, again, the rarely used monsters (those and drow) aren't THEMED enough and there are only a few of them.

But yes, with hue changes we could have ice skeletons, ice dragons, white panthers, white wolves, we could stick the KEL HEPT spell as an ice elemental trail as we have fire elementals, etc. with not much effort.

And you can't say you're ABOVE recolouring when we have demon skeletons.

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:44 pm

AlexRose wrote:Demons, Rot Worms and Beholders were used much more frequently in days past, (I saw rot worms and beholders in my first week (In fact I met a beholder in the wild east of TB so I think they even might have spawned at the time) and greater demons within a couple of months) however, again, the rarely used monsters (those and drow) aren't THEMED enough and there are only a few of them.

But yes, with hue changes we could have ice skeletons, ice dragons, white panthers, white wolves, we could stick the KEL HEPT spell as an ice elemental trail as we have fire elementals, etc. with not much effort.

And you can't say you're ABOVE recolouring when we have demon skeletons.
I'd rather have scaled/blue golems as ice elementals. ;)

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Post by AlexRose » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:22 pm

Nah you could have them as ice golems.

See, now make some ice walls, hue those monsters, voila one ice dungeon coming up. It's not hard to make these changes. Illa could advance in terms of things to do so much if you'd just do things like this.

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Post by Llama » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:51 pm

Were-llamas?

Anyone?

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Post by rakust dorenstkzul » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:56 pm

Schrödinger cat

50/50 chance of spawning or not.

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Post by Ashayen » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:11 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:Were-llamas?

Anyone?
How about... Llama-mouses? Very evil looking creatures *shudders*

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3103 ... imamon.jpg

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Post by nowitzjt » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:17 pm

Lol @ Ashayen, that picture reminded me of the Guinea creatures with the costumes on in South Park, and I had a vision of my character fighting a Guinea Pirate as a boss

Josh

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:23 pm

Ok... yeah... you want my 13 inch fairy to kill things to get runes? BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You want my 13 inch fairy to buy things to get runes? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. You want me to PG to get runes? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Bad enough you already have to PG to level. But now you want to PG to get the runes in the first place? You want mages to PG twice? LMAO. Guess I'm never getting magic. THANKS guys. I still want the old system. Or at least the option of the old system.

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:31 pm


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Post by AlexRose » Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:38 pm

Cromwell, the problem about the level 3 runes governing all magic has not been magically solved since the last page so before you go posting answers like that to Tanistian maybe you should deal with the problem that your whole suggestion epic fails by relying too heavily on magic actually being useful before you have QWAN. Which is is not. At all.

As a starter mage you do not have money and you probably don't have any influence so you don't have anyone who'll be willing to give you rune pages without relying on OOC influence (e.g. a well established member of the community decides to play a mage, everyone's happy to share pages with their character). You can't just go throwing around QWAN and other level 3 pages on easy monsters because once you have it with a bit of pging you can go round raping people, but if you put it on difficult monsters you can't kill them because you don't have any spells that can do anything.

I think a temple/dungeon system with puzzles etc. that requires some exploration, thinking, roleplaying and maybe some teamwork (perhaps with other aspiring mages) would be a much better system. Bit harder to make, but I'm willing to make the maps, and while we're at it we can throw in a different path (but with clear markings that it's not the way to the rune) where there can be monsters; they don't need to serve just one purpose, it'd generate some interest, even fight the current problem that Troll's Bane is the fighter town of choice because it's near the graveyard. I think level 3 runes should be awarded just by the academy, however, but this way teachers need to teach less runes before the teaching is complete so more people go through quickly, the students can train in the meanwhile with their current spells, and teachers will be able to assess more easily who they want to teach. If word gets around someone's abusing their magic they're less likely to get QWAN and if word gets around that someone uses their magic very well then they're more likely to get a teacher. All they need is one lesson, 2 runes from it and they can get maybe QWAN and SIH and suddenly they have like 30 new spells to experiment with.

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:56 pm

I find the expectation that I single-handedly figure out, fix and baloance the system for you guys to be rather amusing.

You point out the problem and just say ha ha ha? No wonder that the combined expertise of our mage players resulted in this mighty clustersmile being the way it is. :)
Offensive spells (Commo):
KEL RA/KEL HEPT (At a high skill level you still need to fire 10s of these to kill stronger monsters).
KEL YEG/YEG PHERC (Do basically nothing, and PHERC is level 3 and YEG is level 2)
JUS SOLH DUN ORL (Need pretty high skill to use it and it does rubbish damage and uses too much mana for it to be worth casting)
JUS PHERC smile (Pretty weak and it has QWAN and PHERC in it)
JUS SOLH DUN ORL smile/JUS PHERC DUN smile(These are decent but they're very high level and need QWAN)
KEL RA QWAN/KEL HEPT QWAN (These are the mainstream BEWM spells that people use to own stuff. They need high skill (like 60 base w/o equipment) to be able to use them for decent damage, though, because at first everything resists them or they do negligable damage.
KEL RA DUN QWAN/KEL HEPT DUN QWAN (These are the area versions of those spells and you need like 80+ skill base w/o equipment)

Healing (Pervy):
MES PEN (This is easy to get and it works well)
MES PEN DUN (DUN is one of the harder runes to get and this spell is pretty useless because by this stage it's more efficient to just MES PEN SIH all the people you intend to heal)
MES PEN SIH (SIH is a harder rune again. You need decent skill to use this)
MES PEN SIH DUN (Rather a high level spell for area max healing)
ORL KAH (For food. Not many people use this spell because it's pretty inefficient and you have to walk around lots for it to be worth using)
ORL KAH QWAN (Requires QWAN, this is the only decent food spell)

Static things (Pervy):
RA IRA ANTH smile/HEPT IRA ANTH smile (static flames: Needs high pervy and needs QWAN)
YEG IRA ANTH QWAN (Poison, requires even higher skill and it's pretty useless)
RA IRA ANTH DUN QWAN/HEPT IRA ANTH DUN QWAN/YEG IRA ANTH DUN QWAN (All require very high skill)
SOLH SAV ANTH DUN QWAN/RA SAV ANTH DUN QWAN/HEPT SAV ANTH DUN QWAN/YEG SAV ANTH DUN QWAN/Portal spell (Require massive skill)
SOLH ORL smile (For making walls, requires QWAN)
SOLH ORL DUN QWAN (For making a wall row, decent skill needed)

Interaction (Desicio):
SUL SOLH smile (Paralysis: Needs QWAN)
JUS KEL smile (Wind pushing spell: Needs QWAN)
JUS TAUR KEL (Teleportation)
Now it is "magically solved".

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