Remove "Walk slower on terrain"

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Llama
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Remove "Walk slower on terrain"

Post by Llama »

Reasons:

1. Its not fun, it doesn't enrich gameplay and it doesn't make anyone's life any better
2. Its not useful for anything, in many cases there are no alternatives to walking through the forest, or walking on rough mountain ground when you're mining
3. Its not a nice feature at all
4. Its not fun.

The only counter argument I have heard against this is "It encourages people to fork out money to buy roads", however in many cases you're going to take a teleporter anyway - and in the times you need it, its not between settlements anyway.

So just remove it, it doesn't make the game fun and just frustates people.
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Olaf Tingvatn
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Post by Olaf Tingvatn »

well my thief has 17 on agility and 20 on dex..or was that the other way around..? annyways...he walks like he is an old fart when in the forest..so yeah its mildly annoying..i support this..exept for sand and gravel really..you dont fly along when walking in sand or on gravel.
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Achae Eanstray
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Post by Achae Eanstray »

I like the idea of delineating between travel on forest/grass and road otherwise why travel the roads at all? The slow speed does that yet it is DEFINITELY frustrating to travel.

Throwing out some ideas:
1. The roads are safe, the grass less, and the forests could be dangerous to travel (possibly occasional spawns of monsters etc)

2. There could be hills and valleys that when crossed too fast you could loose some health if you fall on anything but a road. That is, the char could go the same speed, but would have to slow or go around a hill unless willing to loose some health.

3. The speed of travel could be more directly related to agility, I know it is to some extent however even chars with high agility are slow crossing forests.
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Post by steppenwolf »

Olaf Tingvatn wrote:well my thief has 17 on agility and 20 on dex..or was that the other way around..? annyways...he walks like he is an old fart when in the forest.
I have almost no penalty with 16 agility so...
angry llama wrote:1. Its not fun, it doesn't enrich gameplay and it doesn't make anyone's life any better
Forest and mountains always save my live when I have to outrun nasty animals and stuff.
angry llama wrote:2. Its not useful for anything, in many cases there are no alternatives to walking through the forest, or walking on rough mountain ground when you're mining
In some cases, yeah. But most of these places are unimportant for the majority players or there are cleaner ways.
angry llama wrote:3. Its not a nice feature at all
It can save lives, makes agility also for non-dagger-fighters important and stops some people to go to places where they shouldn't be.
angry llama wrote:4. Its not fun.
It is fun.
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Llama
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Post by Llama »

Wolf of the stairs wrote:In some cases, yeah. But most of these places are unimportant for the majority players or there are cleaner ways.
Last I checked most mines had 'rough rocks' and the graveyard too. Don't see that there are cleaner ways.
Wolf of the Stairs wrote:It can save lives, makes agility also for non-dagger-fighters important and stops some people to go to places where they shouldn't be.
Agility is important for all fighters who want to try to doge anything. And I don't think this is much realistic "Oh noes, the town guard are after us! Quick, into the grass so we can outrun them!". "Places where they shouldn't be?" like you know, exploring the nice map Lenlen and co made for us?
-
Just make the penalty much much much much less. Try carrying a load of ores on rocky ground and you'll see what I mean.
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Post by steppenwolf »

Mining suckz and graveyard is not the only way to train fighting. But at least you have a chance to escape misplaced demon skeleton or aggressive wolf pack.
Hadrian_Abela wrote:"Places where they shouldn't be?" like you know, exploring the nice map Lenlen and co made for us?
Seeing Mrs. Tailor running around in dragoncave would be a bit odd in my opinion.

Hadrian_Abela wrote:Just make the penalty much much much much less. Try carrying a load of ores on rocky ground and you'll see what I mean.
I know what you mean and reducing the penalty would be okay.
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Hemisphere
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Post by Hemisphere »

Olaf Tingvatn wrote:well my thief has 17 on agility and 20 on dex..or was that the other way around..? annyways...he walks like he is an old fart when in the forest..so yeah its mildly annoying..i support this..exept for sand and gravel really..you dont fly along when walking in sand or on gravel.
Yes yes yes. Remove it. Most annoying thing EVER.

Makes characters move slower than I could concievably imagine anyone moving. It's not realistic and it's just annoying.

There should be some penalties (tied to agility level) for moving on rough terrain, perhaps your stamina would fall faster, or you could even randomly "trip" and cut yourself, causing damage(!), but given the current situation with moving speeds (ie, they're *always* fairly slow, whether you're walking on rough terrain or not), it's really one of the main things for me that clearly hurts the game more than it helps it (particularly with regards to retaining new players).

This, and having to stand on the adjacent tile to interact with anything in any way (and worse, having to actually face it head on for some actions). A one tile gap between you and the object should be okay - and you certainly shouldn't have to face the same way as something to use it either - your character should auto re-align itself in the direction of the thing you're using, as you use it.

There are lots of features in Illarion, (more that I've not yet run into I'm sure), which seem to be there for the sake of "realism", but this is firmly at the expense of quality gameplay, unnecesserily breaking standard RPG conventions and generally making the game of Illarion "not fun". Sorry :D

If Illarion is all about roleplay (which is in turn about imagination), I can IMAGINE that my character is actually facing the tree before I cut it, or I can imagine that I find it excrutiatingly difficult to walk on the forest floor(??).

Perhaps these features exist to prevent powergaming, but there has to be a balance kept between making powergaming less efficient, and keeping the standard player's game experience exciting and accessible. (this is difficult, and powergaming has to be accepted as a part of any MMO, because all MMO mechanics, even Illarions', specifically reward more time spent and input from the user),

Edit: Also, all arguments about "well just get more agility then duh!!" are completely void, as the majority of people who are actually likely to quit over this sort of thing, do not have, nor can they even concieve of having, enough agility to counter this silly system. These are the new players who start playing (as I did), then want to explore the wild forests for adventure, and end up walking for several hours, finding nothing but some empty houses, not even a single monster or animal spawn, not a single person, and on top of this having to walk at the slowest pace I've ever walked in any videogame, ever. In most games the rate of "running" over a forest floor, would be the rate reserved for "frozen in a solid block of ice" - in fact I'm sure I've been frozen in solid ice in a game before and moved faster than that.
Last edited by Hemisphere on Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Vern Kron
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Post by Vern Kron »

How about just drop the dungeon slowing terrain, and make it like a road/grass/carpet.
As to the hill proposal: Currently, we can't have hills. Unless you want hills that don't actually go 'up'.

As to the "Characters going where they shouldn't." That is a decision of the PO. If they feel there is reason, they have to meet some one, so forth, then that is their choice. Not yours. If they end up getting killed, its their fault. I mean, when you see 'keep out' signs, or skulls, or undead, you can generally bet that there is going to be something up ahead.

To the mining suckz comment, how about all the smiths stop smithing, since they won't get ore? Without the graveyard, you aren't going to have very decent weapons, are you? Unless you hunt maps, in which case you will need some one who is able to dig.

Also, yes, agility -can- save lives. However, agility in a forest won't really help that much, because many times you get stuck in trees.

To those who have high agility, congradulations: However, there are those in the game who have more things to spend their points on than just moving. With average agility, Wolves can be outrun, as can skeletons.

All that being said, I like agility. However, I do not like it when people get into arguements, especially over minor things such as this. And yes, I do believe I replied to every post so far in this thread.
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Achae Eanstray
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Post by Achae Eanstray »

I don't believe the slow speed to get some places in game is minor if I am interpreting the comment above correctly, if not I apologize. As for agility, yes there are more things to use then that, and those that pick agility either 1. want it possibly for fighting, or 2. picked it so they wouldn't be slow as molasses going over some terrain foregoing other assets for simply that reason.

All are just suggestions in order to make traveling in game easier which I am all for. Sometimes RP is left behind due to "you are in the graveyard, it would take me forever to get there, maybe will see your char tomorrow" and this is not even traveling over forest or mountain to get there. This suggestion was mainly to alleviate that distance and help RP but anything else would be appreciated:
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... ht=portals
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Post by Friedwulfa »

Sorry for german: Ich finde es gut das man auf unterschiedlichem Terrain unterschiedlich schnell ist. Es gibt genug Strassen auf der Insel, die dafür sorgen das man überall bequem hinkommt und wenn ich im wahren Leben statt auf der Strasse im Unterholz in irgendwelchen Büschen rumkrauche bin ich ja auch langsamer als normal. Für mich nur logisch und ein .. hrm .. sagen wir interessantes feature.
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Post by AlexRose »

Olaf Tingvatn wrote:well my thief has 17 on agility and 20 on dex..or was that the other way around..? annyways...he walks like he is an old fart when in the forest..so yeah its mildly annoying..i support this..exept for sand and gravel really..you dont fly along when walking in sand or on gravel.
Well then he's carrying too much stuff. It should be barely noticeable.

I personally think it's a good system. It gives agility a use etc.
Beldir
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Post by Beldir »

Just think at the roads. No one would use them, if you remove this.
-> less Atmosphere with everyone walking through the forest or mountains instead of using the roads.

And you are really much faster on that terrain with 18 agility than with 5. ;)
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Llama
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Post by Llama »

Beldir wrote:Just think at the roads. No one would use them, if you remove this.
-> less Atmosphere with everyone walking through the forest or mountains instead of using the roads.
Less atmosphere? What?

I have no idea what you people think atmosphere is about, but I don't think something like using roads is SO IMPORTANT to in game atmosphere. Instead I think its one of the most unimportant things.

And the roads in real life were useful so you don't get lost, and so you don't smack into trees. That said I've walked in real life on sandy beaches, or on rocks, my speed didn't immidiatly drop by 75%.
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Post by Rekarafi »

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Beldir wrote: And the roads in real life were useful so you don't get lost, and so you don't smack into trees. That said I've walked in real life on sandy beaches, or on rocks, my speed didn't immidiatly drop by 75%.
Hehe, yeah, but were you carrying an armor and weapons or even ore n stuff ,eh?
Nah.

I really like the walking slower thingy.
And, with 15 agility i can walk there quite good. 1-2 steps in normal speed, little break, only part of a second, next step.
But i often had the situation i met hunters on the streets (cause they are faster) and we hunted together. This always was fun.
So how 2 meet hunters when they are all travelling through forest? Its not quite easy to find other players then. So hunting would mostly be alone, and that can be boring after time.

Let things as they are, please.
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Post by Hemisphere »

You'd have more atmosphere and meet far more people on the roads if Illarion was able to retain any new players, and this is one of the main reasons why it can't.
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Post by nmaguire »

Hemisphere wrote:You'd have more atmosphere and meet far more people on the roads if Illarion was able to retain any new players, and this is one of the main reasons why it can't.
Oooooh! Oh no he di-ent!
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Post by Hemisphere »

Also if you DESPERATELY want to keep people on the roads, then it should be not because the forest artificially slows your character, but because it's SO full of obstacles, mazes, and dead ends (like a real forest, duh), that it's not even worth your effort to TRY and walk through it. Walking in the forest should also switch off the automap (or artificially reduce it's radius), because obviously you would have no idea where you were going, again, like in a real forest.

Atmosphere enough?
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Post by nmaguire »

That sounds pretty cool, maybe add some decent monsters in there too for added incentive, but what happens when half the player base of illa has got stuck in a forest somewhere? :P
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Post by Hemisphere »

What, all 10 of them? ;)
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Llama
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Post by Llama »

Hemisphere wrote:What, all 10 of them? ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQZi7tmW ... re=related
--

The forest is already very thick in soem places, that slows you down enough as it is. So yes a nice road through it would speed up travel time.
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Hemisphere
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Post by Hemisphere »

Yea I noticed that actually.

Another possibility would be some specific "hazards", like there could be some tiles and objects that would slow you down in exactly the same way as forest floor currently does (and in a way that would make sense), for example: thick brambles, undergrowth, fallen branch, etc.

On gravel it could be "pile of loose stones", and small holes in the ground (enough to get a foot caught in).

The thing that really grates me about the current experience is that I can't justify it through logic - I walk over what is quite clearly as smooth a floor as the grass and street I'm usually walking on (if not smoother!), and suddenly I turn into a snail.
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Post by Kappa »

* Imagine some brushwood and everything is fine.
Your 'special tiles' work the same way as now but just got another graphic, so whats the difference?

* Why do you think its artificialy that characters are slower in the woods?

* Statistics say to me over 200 people playing regularly.
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Hemisphere
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Post by Hemisphere »

I imagine brushwood and everything isn't fine though, cos I tend to feel in something of a hurry when the game is forcing me to such a slow pace, and that means I want to run, but I can't run so I'm just frustrated.

My proposal of special tiles would be different because they would be individually placed hazards, making certain areas of forest hard to traverse - this is normal and expected, and forces the player to use their wits to find a safe and quick path through, occasionally getting caught in inavoidable snares along the way, which is exactly what would actually happen.

Currently the entire forest is what in most games would class as a hazard. Whatever the reasons for justifying this are, I can only say that they are imo gravely misguided, and I challenge anyone to raise to me an example of any other game which tortures it's players in this way. It might keep people to the roads, but there really are other ways of doing this.

And the 10 players thing was obviously a joke (but with a slightly serious undertone, relating directly to this thread)
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AlexRose
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Post by AlexRose »

This thread is so win xD
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maryday
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Post by maryday »

"100+ rising%" penalties on carried goods probably. (([/b]))
*A human runs in the forest, extending his arms above.*

*A most heavy armored person runs in the forest, wielding a weapon, as if to strike.*


maybe define different "clothing" classes,
like:



body+leg+feet(heavy)=-55%

body+leg(heavy)=-30%

leg(heavy)=-5%

leg+feet(heavy)=-20%
->metal

----------

hand+body+leg+feet(medium)=-25%
->leather

leg+feet=-5%


"don`t know...was just thinking about "sneaking" and stuff also..."
wiseacregirl do much think trigger be interesting for engine;
understandable?
((another way might be simply be adding "armor class" to movement penalty,
to say))

((wiseacregirl be mucho bored be forced think about moving and stuff;
@Dei my dear; ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzpW7P83sb4&NR=1
)) , why you never intervene?
:oops: ..and goes sleep or do work?
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Roland Tafar
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Post by Roland Tafar »

Abhängig vom Attribut sind die Chars in verschiedenen Terrains verschieden schnell. Dies wirkt sich auch auf die Chancen im Kampf gegen die an den Wald angepassten Kreaturen aus. Zustände wie Überladung etc. sind ebenfalls bereits berücksichtigt. Ich finde das gut. Es macht die Welt vielfältiger und interessanter.
Wer das nicht mag, soll die Wälder meiden, statt wegen seinem persönlichen Geschmack / seiner Attributwahl mal wieder weltbewegende Änderungen zu fordern.
Als nächstes wird sonst die Dunkelheit abgeschafft, weil einer schlecht sieht. Auch die Jahreszeiten sind eigentlich nur hinderlich. (Vorsicht: Ironie)
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Post by Rye »

I admit it can be a bit frustrating to be slowed down to a crawl but don't remove movement penalty completely.
Perhaps an adjustment will suffice. It seems that the penalty leaps when it ought to step. The values for road and grass movement are fine but suddenly leap by a factor of ten in the forest. As far as the rocks/gravel in mountains and mines are concerned they are also a bit skewed. It is a given that movement on mtns. involves terrain changes and there should be a penalty. Also one thing nobody has mentioned(and I don't know if it is even possible) is that movement in the dark ought to be of a different value. If one is in a mine or cave and not using a torch or lamp movement ought to be different. Same should apply to forest. Moving through the deep woods in the dark and you think you ought to skip along la-dee-da? For the most part I just grin and bear the hassle of current movement penalties. The game I came from had none and the illusion was all but impossible to maintain.
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Olaf Tingvatn
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Post by Olaf Tingvatn »

AlexRose wrote:
Olaf Tingvatn wrote:well my thief has 17 on agility and 20 on dex..or was that the other way around..? annyways...he walks like he is an old fart when in the forest..so yeah its mildly annoying..i support this..exept for sand and gravel really..you dont fly along when walking in sand or on gravel.
Well then he's carrying too much stuff. It should be barely noticeable.

I personally think it's a good system. It gives agility a use etc.
heh..he was wearing black robe black shirt, the daggers you start out with and 5 sausages..i dont think 6-7 strength should have anything to do with carrying so little..or does it?
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Aldan Vian
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Post by Aldan Vian »

At first I hated this thread...but I kind of like the hazard idea..and maybe the disabled minimap
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Re: Remove "Walk slower on terrain"

Post by Tanistian_Kanea »

ok so i have been away for to weeks visiting england so i am just going to comment on two posts.
Hadrian_Abela wrote:Reasons:

1. Its not fun, it doesn't enrich gameplay and it doesn't make anyone's life any better
Makes things more realistic. You are slowed because you have to avoid trees, bushes, traverse uneven ground. Thinking like this, when i imagine myself going through a forest I imagine myself doing these things which does enrich game play for me at least.
Hadrian_Abela wrote: 2. Its not useful for anything, in many cases there are no alternatives to walking through the forest, or walking on rough mountain ground when you're mining
This is a In Game problem. If you think about it REALLY hard life is just FULL of them. These are solved in real life, they can be solved In game.
Hadrian_Abela wrote: 3. Its not a nice feature at all
Not nice? This offers depth to the game other often lack. If that is "Not nice" I want all i can get.
Hadrian_Abela wrote: 4. Its not fun.
This seems like a repeat of number 3.
Hadrian_Abela wrote:
The only counter argument I have heard against this is "It encourages people to fork out money to buy roads", however in many cases you're going to take a teleporter anyway - and in the times you need it, its not between settlements anyway.

So just remove it, it doesn't make the game fun and just frustates people.
It only frustrates people when they try doing something and encounter a problem. However as stated before this is an In game problem to be solved In Game.
Achae_Eanstray wrote: I like the idea of delineating between travel on forest/grass and road otherwise why travel the roads at all? The slow speed does that yet it is DEFINITELY frustrating to travel.
Because it makes you travel slower. which you just said was a good thing.
Achae_Eanstray wrote:
Throwing out some ideas:
1. The roads are safe, the grass less, and the forests could be dangerous to travel (possibly occasional spawns of monsters etc)
No, adding more monsters will not help anything and in fact would severely hurt the player base that are non combatant.
Achae_Eanstray wrote:
2. There could be hills and valleys that when crossed too fast you could loose some health if you fall on anything but a road. That is, the char could go the same speed, but would have to slow or go around a hill unless willing to loose some health.
Yes... lets kill people for walking around... no thanks.
Achae_Eanstray wrote:
3. The speed of travel could be more directly related to agility, I know it is to some extent however even chars with high agility are slow crossing forests.
This fact is just wrong. I had a character that moved the same speed on any tile. however this seemed wrong because when i walked on a road beside someone with 3 agility we still moved at the same speed... weird....
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