The More you know... the less you learn

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Llama
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The More you know... the less you learn

Post by Llama »

This is a novel suggestion meant to prevent cross-'classing' in illarion.

By cross-classing I mean - mages that smith, knights who glassblow ect...
-
Here's how the suggestion works.

Each group of skills is divided into groups - "Crafter", "Fighter", "Mage", - this is how it is currently. The rest of the skills "Language", "Druid" and "Bard" are ignored for the purpose of this suggestion.

This suggestion aims to reduce learning amount for skills which aren't in your 'tier' -

The highest value over 30 of any skill which is not in the current group of the skill you're learning is taken. Instead of learning at maximum capacity - you will only learn at (130- Otherskill)*Usual amount.

What this basically means is, if you have a very high skilled fighter for example - say 90% skill - if you try to learn blacksmithing you will only learn it at 40% of the capacity, so it'll take you a bit more than twice as long as a normal crafter.

Similarly, if my crafter wants to learn self-defence, he may do so, provided I never reach more than 30%.

Obviously this will require characters to have certain control over their skills - the ability to force-reduce a skill or to lock it down - however I think its an effective way of stopping people cross-class too much.

A less brutal alternative is to give a 50% bonus to those who keep the same class, but reduce it according to the amount of cross-class skills.
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Being allowed to play a multi class character is one of the few reasons I play this game... Just saying.
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Post by Llama »

*scratches head*

So how do you propose that we reduce fighters that make their own armor/weapons ?

--

Also (something I remembered) - some 'general purpose skills' (fishing, library research ect..) shouldn't count as anything
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Hadrian_Abela wrote:So how do you propose that we reduce fighters that make their own armor/weapons ?
Not at all? I'd rather encourage people to focus on a craft by making it more convenient to craft and reduce the hassles that are around. Fighting is fun, crafting should be fun, too, so you can chose what you do and when you want to do both, well, have twice the fun?
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Post by Llama »

The way the current economy works is as follows (although your 'sell many things to NPCs' tactic will really help everyone) -

Fighters/Mages kill creatures for money. -They require certain items to do so.
-> Demand for armor/weapons and enough money to buy it.

Fighter/Mage uses money obtained from step 1 to buy stuff from crafter
-> Crafter gets money which entered the economy from fighter/mage

Crafter decides to buy own resources (provided he finds a seller)
-> "Bottom tier" person earns money too.

And that way money is sent beautifully to the system.

Now with the 'fighters are smiths' problem -> the fighters become richer, since they don't need to buy anything from anyone.

The demand for crafters is reduced -> the amount of pure crafters IG dwindles slowly. The cost of items falls dramatically

Resources become too expensive to buy due to reduced cost of sales -> 'bottom tier' people stay poor.
--

If we want money to flow through the economy, the primary entrance point of money must spread throughout the system.

Your "NPCs buy goods" thing is a GREAT idea -> but it still won't help the stance that fighters/mages will be the richest characters ingame.
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Post by Mr. Cromwell »

..By separating dex into (Crafting) dex and then Hand-to-eye Coordnation (Fighting). Dex has not positive effect on fighting at all (makes even sense, as the sort of coordination you need while fighting or throwing this is often quite different than what you need when you patiently try to create something).

The characters who however do invest in actual dex considerably cease to be pure fighters. For the purpose of fighting, they are something like warlocks: Some advantages (namely in making their own stuff) but are likely to have their asses kicked by both dedicated fighters literally, as well as dedicated craftsmen when it comes to the quality of things produced. :) They can still be good fighters, it's just that they require skills or equipment superior to the equipment and skills of a dedicated fighter in order to hope to beat him. :)

@Estralis
Well, twice as fun shouldn't mean that others have to take it in the bum. Externalities, Essie. A decision that is seems fun and harmless for individual player may have disappointing macro-illanomic consequences. I don't say that you shouldn't be able to be a craftsman and a fighter, but I am saying that choosing to be either just either one should have benefits over dabbling with everything. In this case, the fact that the users of things are enroaching on the turf of those who manufacture the things means that if you 'just' manufacture, then the fun is in your bum.
Last edited by Mr. Cromwell on Fri May 29, 2009 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mr. Cromwell »

Hadrian_Abela wrote:but it still won't help the stance that fighters/mages will be the richest characters ingame.
Garon, lol?
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Post by Roland Tafar »

Ich bin leider nicht in der Lage, meinen Standpunkt angemessen zu übersetzen. Falls sich jemand dafür findet, wäre ich sehr dankbar.

Kein aktueller sehr guter Kämpfer ist gleichzeitig gut im Handwerk. Die Wahl der Attribute verhindert das bereits jetzt. Denn man kann die hochwertigen Rüstungen, Mahlzeiten, Waffen etc. nur herstellen, wenn man ausreichend hohe Geschickwerte hat. Setzt ein Kämpfer aber zu viel auf Geschick, fehlen ihm entscheidende Punkte, die er bei Stärke, Ausdauer oder anderem unverzichtbar braucht.
Deshalb ist die Forderung nach neuen Klassenattributen ebenso überflüssig wie der Versuch, an "lead attributes" herumzufeilen wie z. B. der Ausdauer. Vor allem, so lange andere Dinge noch nicht funktionieren.

Mein Hauptchar ist ein Kämpfer, der bereits jetzt unter der Abhängigkeit von den viel zu wenigen hochklassigen Handwerkern leidet, die faktisch nie zur Verfügung stehen. Ich habe die bekannten Handwerker angeschrieben, andere haben Inserate aufgegeben, aber der Bedarf konnte einfach nicht gedeckt werden.
Es krankt nicht an der Nachfrage, sondern am fehlenden Angebot!

@Hadrian
An jeder Ecke kommt irgendein Vorschlag von dir, der es den "überbevorteilten" Kriegern im Falle einer Realisierung schwerer machen würde. Witzigerweise sammelt ein guter Kämpfer kaum etwas, das irgendein Handwerker liefern könnte, aber um an besondere Beute zu gelangen, müssen im Normalfall drei sehr gute Kämpfer zusammenarbeiten, wo ein mittelmässiger Magier locker alles alleine abräumt. Deshalb basteln sich ja auch so extrem viele Spieler einen Magier.

Mein Vorschlag: Macht das Handwerk etwas unkomplizierter. Wer für die Herstellung von vier Erdbeerkuchen einen verbraucht und ewig mit ständigen Klicks, ohne mit anderen kommunizieren zu können am Ofen steht, bis er es endlich geschafft hat, - die Stunde Früchte sammeln im Wald nicht mitgerechnet -, neigt nicht zu Überproduktion und Verkauf. Das gilt auch für das übrige Handwerk.
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Post by Llama »

Mr. Cromwell wrote:
Hadrian_Abela wrote:but it still won't help the stance that fighters/mages will be the richest characters ingame.
Garon, lol?
Garon doesn't count :P
--

Roland -> My german skill is blue. *translates*

Google translate is rubbishy. -> couldn't understand most of it.

But apparently you were looking for a crafter and couldn't find one. The reason for that is simply because there isn't enough demand. And putting stuff on the trading board gets you a quick seller.

Of course this is if you want somethign which isn't '1000 pins'
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Post by Mr. Cromwell »

Roland Tafar wrote:Kein aktueller sehr guter Kämpfer ist gleichzeitig gut im Handwerk.
Vielleicht, aber das bedeutet nicht das die derzeitig situation erfolgt aus die attributen oder das alles ist okay. Alles ist nicht okay. :wink:

Die sehr guter (Matt usw. ;) ) Kämpfer haben die Handwerkfähigkeiten nicht, weil sie können überarbeitsgerät aus maps und drops haben. Aber, die grundlage von ausrüstungsteile selbständigkeit besteht noch. "Wenn" wir wollen die drops und maps mehr handwerkerfreundlich machen, dann müssen wir auch überdenken die andere methoden durch mann kann die gute items haben. Das bedeuted natürlich handwerkfähigkeiten. Wenn die derzeitig methode (maps&drops) ist vielleicht nerfed oder so, dann es gibt eine grösser motivation für der Kämpfer zu Schmiede werden.

Und persönlich ich denke, das Illa sollte die leute wer wählen nur "ein" fähigkeit art begünstigen uber die leute wer machen die wahl nicht. :)
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Woah, you german is getting better and better! Awesome!

I am still convinced that the main priority of development for Illarion should be to make the game more enjoyable and convenient. So, a crafter who wants to craft a sword should not have to click a dozend times, failing all the time, consuming tons of materials and food. So, instead of punishing fighters (some balancing on maps and drops is necessary, though!), award crafters. And - keep in mind that this is not a grinding game, I have absolutely no problem with somebody being able to get the best stuff in the game without working his ass off for months of RL invested into a game that is supposed to be fun.

So, give people the room and freedom to shape their character as they want to, offer some challenges, but always reward players generously. Illarion once was a game where you could master a skill in some weeks, being able to create the best armour in the game in two seconds by one mouse click. And trust me - it was fun! Not that I want to do a rollback, but the freedom we had back then resulted in the most awesome RP for you didn't have to worry about skill caps, proper attribute allocation or kissing a magic teacher's butt to get a crappy rune.

So: Long term goal should be to make all skills/professions attractive so people may chose which way to go themselves.
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Post by Llama »

But nobody is going to choose a pure crafter path if all the customers he would have gotten all make (or get from drops) their own stuff.

That is the main problem here.
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Yes, a brutal skill cap would solve this. A class system would solve this. Many things would solve this. But at what cost? I mean, Illarion offers a unique freedom to players to shape their characters as they want to. We have plenty of persona players that abuse this freedom so their characters become teh total pwnage. For what, I ask? To battle pixel monsters? My personal motivation to play this game goes beyond beating up the 1287th lich lord. I want to shape a character, not bother with limits of skill caps, learning limits and realistic crafting processes.
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Post by Roland Tafar »

No, Mr. Cromwell, I don't think that Illarion should benefit people for their choice of playing their roles.

I like playing a "real man" who lives with his wife in his hometown, works all day and goes hunting - as his forefathers did before.

This gives me the possibility to be not bored by playing a char. As I like it, I can go hunting, fighting, working and doing lots of other things. The longtimemotivation, which went absent for so many players, is very high.
Of course, I am specialized. I am a lousy crafter, whenever possible, I buy the things I need from a better crafter. But I can do crafting. Makes fun, when I don't want to fight.

You are right, it is necessary to bring the crafting forward. But I favour doing this by simplifying the procedure, giving more gain and finding a way, that more crafters produce more highclass products. Whenever I ask around for great quantities of highclass food, for example, no one is willing to trade it to me.

In contrary to Hadrians opinion, the lack of crafters is not a question of demand but of offer. Not the fighters are all-around-workers, the craftsmen mostly do so, instead of getting mastership in their profession.
They produce only average and useless things. Nobody wants to pay for this.

We don't need more smithes instead of fighters (who else but fighters should need the products?), but we need more highclass smithes. And whenever one smith is as good as needed, very often he leaves the island (annoyed by his limited life).
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Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus »

I don't think making it harder to learn will help the fun of the game in fact I think it will deter from that fun, crafting is hard and boring. If a player wants to not only fight but craft and stays in game long enough to learn both, it doesn't bother me. I know the monetary system needs some work, and I may be different from other players, but my chars crafted having fun doing it and not because they thought they would get rich.
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Post by Llama »

Roland Tafar wrote:In contrary to Hadrians opinion, the lack of crafters is not a question of demand but of offer. Not the fighters are all-around-workers, the craftsmen mostly do so, instead of getting mastership in their profession.
They produce only average and useless things. Nobody wants to pay for this.
I play a smith. He's a very good smith. He produces more than 'average and useless things'.

He's not really rolling around in customers. The amount of people who bought suits of armor in the past few months (aside from Pellandria who bought one of everything), were two people. One of which bought an entire suit of Salkmaerian Officer's armor - the other bought 4 chain shirts.

I don't think this means the other fighters are running around naked eh? Where are THEY getting their armor/items?
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Post by bdgdkay »

My main character is a warrior, and a good one at that. He was injurred and can no longer fight. This proposal would mean that he can no longer fight and at the same time, he can barely pick up another trade. To be honest, Im starting to lose interest in playing.. Ive just got other things I need to do irl. Taking away my liberty to learn whatever trade I wanted to would just kill the game for me :?
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Post by Pepe Zwirnfaden »

If you split your Attributes for play a fighter/crafter Char. you have more disadvantage than advantages.

Sure, the Char. can craft and fight, but he can not very good craft and not very good fighting. :wink:
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Post by Joxia Doral »

Pepe Zwirnfaden wrote:If you split your Attributes for play a fighter/crafter Char. you have more disadvantage than advantages.

Sure, the Char. can craft and fight, but he can not very good craft and not very good fighting. :wink:
Sure they can...ie. Salathe, Konrad, Mark...
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Post by Eisenbein »

Pepe Zwirnfaden wrote:If you split your Attributes for play a fighter/crafter Char. you have more disadvantage than advantages.

Sure, the Char. can craft and fight, but he can not very good craft and not very good fighting. :wink:
Right now, it's only a question of spending time on it, not of the possibility.
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Post by Llama »

Joxia Doral wrote:
Pepe Zwirnfaden wrote:If you split your Attributes for play a fighter/crafter Char. you have more disadvantage than advantages.

Sure, the Char. can craft and fight, but he can not very good craft and not very good fighting. :wink:
Sure they can...ie. Salathe, Konrad, Mark...
...Saigwin...

...Taliss used to do carpentry

... Captain something (does glass blowing)

Olive ( ? )

Ogerawa
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Post by Pepe Zwirnfaden »

If you are play a master crafter, you must have a dex min. 17 points.

15 points and anough time are good. And with 15 points in dex you can make all items in you crafting class, but you would never make the last items in exelent quality.
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Post by AlexRose »

I was under the impression that a fighter with 17 dex would be much inferior to one with 3 dex and high agl/perc/str.

And Adrian, hate to break it to you, but mages don't buy stuff. Treasure maps ftw.
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Post by Joxia Doral »

AlexRose wrote:I was under the impression that a fighter with 17 dex would be much inferior to one with 3 dex and high agl/perc/str.

And Adrian, hate to break it to you, but mages don't buy stuff. Treasure maps ftw.
Alex, the point is for the crafters to have business...
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Post by Llama »

15 points and anough time are good. And with 15 points in dex you can make all items in you crafting class, but you would never make the last items in exelent quality.
How many people can make the last items in excellent quality?

The "Only pure smiths can make the best items in excellent" quality is not a very good argument - it takes a LOT of time and effort to get to that point. And fighters who want to make their own stuff will still do it - the fact that they won't be able to make excellent two-handed swords will NOT discourage anyone.

Also that's set to change.
--

And Alex - I've heard a ton of different stories about dex and fighters. I don't KNOW whether it

- Does nothing
- Helps with aiming all weapons
- Helps stuff not break
- Helps with aiming ranged

I've heard all 4 of those during my stay at Illarion.

And don't be so happy about the 'treasuremaps ftw for mages' ;)
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Post by Gregory Hardcast »

I always thought perception was important for smithing. Dont know if thats true however.

As far as im concerned, it comes down to the character you are playing if you want them to be a crafter or fighter.
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Post by AlexRose »

Joxia Doral wrote:
AlexRose wrote:I was under the impression that a fighter with 17 dex would be much inferior to one with 3 dex and high agl/perc/str.

And Adrian, hate to break it to you, but mages don't buy stuff. Treasure maps ftw.
Alex, the point is for the crafters to have business...
That's exactly my point. He said that fighters make their own stuff and crafters cater excusively to mages, but mages get their stuff from treasure maps.
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Post by Mr. Cromwell »

Roland Tafar wrote:No, Mr. Cromwell, I don't think that Illarion should benefit people for their choice of playing their roles.

I like playing a "real man" who lives with his wife in his hometown, works all day and goes hunting - as his forefathers did before.

This gives me the possibility to be not bored by playing a char. As I like it, I can go hunting, fighting, working and doing lots of other things. The longtimemotivation, which went absent for so many players, is very high.
Of course, I am specialized. I am a lousy crafter, whenever possible, I buy the things I need from a better crafter. But I can do crafting. Makes fun, when I don't want to fight.

You are right, it is necessary to bring the crafting forward. But I favour doing this by simplifying the procedure, giving more gain and finding a way, that more crafters produce more highclass products. Whenever I ask around for great quantities of highclass food, for example, no one is willing to trade it to me.

In contrary to Hadrians opinion, the lack of crafters is not a question of demand but of offer. Not the fighters are all-around-workers, the craftsmen mostly do so, instead of getting mastership in their profession.
They produce only average and useless things. Nobody wants to pay for this.

We don't need more smithes instead of fighters (who else but fighters should need the products?), but we need more highclass smithes. And whenever one smith is as good as needed, very often he leaves the island (annoyed by his limited life).
Let's look at some of the fighters on the island during the past times, especially those affiliated with the Town Guard leadership (and whom I have thus had the pleasure of associating with IG), bolded names are those whom I'm pretty certain are primary fighters (and even if not, still impressively strong):

Altrix, former guard captain: Smith
Fooser, former boss of the town for several dozen times: Smith
Julius Rothman, former captain, chancellor, archduke: Smith
John Smith, former captain: Smith
Amadi Yusuf Randal, briefly served as captain: Not Smith? Honestly not sure. ;)
Dain Laiden, current captain: Not smith?

Then throw in:
Saigwin
Mark Strongarm
Gregory Hardcast
Behemoth
A whole bunch of dwarves

Well, meh? Some of those people, while perhaps not able to beat Matt's chars, are still pretty damn strong and well powergamed warriors. ;) It's not just that they obviously supply their own need for all equipment (in conjuction with loot and map-drops), but also sell to other people too. Furthermore, when you consider that the TB townguard seems to be packed with smiths half of the time, a lot of demand for those "average-okay" items in that typically noob-loaded organization saturated by the TG smiths making the stuff by themselves for the underlings. Very good for the recruits who get the stuff for free, but economy-wise and in terms of encouraging craftmanship dedication it's a rather poor situation (as opposed to the government purchasing these equipments from real smiths who focus on smithing stuff, and then handing the equipment to the recruits for free or for a nominal fee :) )

I am actually not arguing that you couldn't smith or mine or fish or shoot fireballs from your eyes or whatever you want to do to keep yourself motivated and playing the game. However, what I am saying is that after you have chosen a field for you, I feel that it is perfectly reasonable to either discriminate and disadvantage your char indirectly or directly when he wants to do something else (and 'only' in that else). This doesn't mean that you are unable to craft or skill whatever you want, however it does mean that the other guy will do it better than you, or that you will do it worse than him, even if you PG to his level.

I mean, have all the fun you guys want. I don't question your right to choose whatever skills you want. However, I do question your (and likewise my own) right to be as good in the additional skills as those guys who specialize or focus in that. It doesn't mean that you suddenly have to stop hunting or cooking; It however does mean that actually being a hunter, mage or smith instead of a hunter-mage-smith becomes more meaningful. Talking about the inability to craft high-end items as the "bonus" of craftsmen dedication is rather silly, simply because this benefit only touches those characters who have an extremely high skill already, and moreover as those high-skill items are presently much more easily accessed via other ways (drops, quests, maps) rather than working your ass off while trying to get to the point of being able to make them.

I mean, seriously:
Excellent Brand New Armor
Good New Armor
Is there a difference? Sure, but the latter will do just fine to good chunk (or even most) of the people anyway! :) If the former is crafted by a dedicated dex 18 person for sale and the latter is crafted by a smith-mage-cook-lumberjack-computer technician-medico-warrior-archer-tailor-fisherman-farmer, for his own personal use, I'd be hard pressed to believe that the multiperson would avoid purchasing the better product in that case and use his own goods, while also competing with the craftsman for other sales of such products (and he can compete with price due to his other sources of revenue) which will cause a rather bleh-esque situation for the actual craftsman.

I mean, there already are choices. Do you want to be a druid, or a mage. You cannot be both. I would not have a problem with: Do you want to be a smith or a warrior? You can either: Excel in one and maybe be mediocre in the other, or be lukewarmly okay in both. There are already certain techinal limits on the fighting side as well (as in, you can be a warrior and a mage at the same time, but stats simply prevent you from being better than warriors in actual fighting or better than mages in actual magic -> though you can of course still kick ass). You want to play a role? Choose it and stick to it. If you want to amuse yourselves or keep yourselves entertained during boring times, then you really should be willing to accept a small sting in the efficiency of the fun-skills...

Seriously guys.
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Post by Aldan Vian »

I really don't think Dex has that much of an effect on fighting. My fighter char has like no dex and he has no problem hitting his enemy.
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Post by Llama »

Cromwell is awesome.

Thanks for speaking my mind.
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