Call for opinions: Lead attributes

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Nalzaxx
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Re: Call for opinions: Lead attributes

Post by Nalzaxx »



language skills - Intelligence

More intelligence makes it easier to learn languages.

baking - Dexterity
blacksmithing - Dexterity
carpentry - Dexterity
dying and tanning - Dexterity
fireing bricks - Dexterity
glass blowing - Dexterity
goldsmithing - Dexterity
gemcutting - Dexterity
smithing - Dexterity
stealing - Dexterity
tailoring - Dexterity


Basic crafting skills require dexterity of the hands and fingers for a steady hand and skillfull work.

herb lore - Perception
fishing - Perception


Searching skills need perception so gatherers can locate the items they need.

lumberjacking - Strength
mining - Strength
peasantry - Strength


However even a blind man can find a tree or a rock, but only a strong man can cut one down. Chopping a tree, mining a rock or ploughing a field all require a certain level of strength.

commotio - Intelligence

Commotio is the destructive side of magic. I only picked Intelligence for balance reasons. 2 magic skills for each magic stat.

desicio - Willpower

Desicio is commanding magic, and commanding others needs a strong willed mind.

genese - Yes, please explain.

magic resistance - Essence

Although the willpower argument is a sound one against unnatural influences and suggestion, even the strongest willed gets burnt by a fireball. Therefore the spiritual strength of a person should determine their resistance in a high fantasy setting.

pervestigatio - Essence

Pervestigation is the magic of creation. As such it relies on the energies of the mage to bring things into existance and so essence is the logical choice.

transformo - Intelligence

Transformo means transformation, I would suggest it needs intelligence in order to understand both the qualities and the mechanism of change.

transfreto - Willpower

Transfreto means transferral and is used for things such as telekinesis. I would therefore suggest that willpower is needed in order to concentrate and influence the change.

library research - Intelligence

Understanding, learning and interpreting information need intelligence.

Stealth - Agility

To move quietly and carefully across any terrain requires good agility.

traps - Dexterity

Traps are fiddly and require a steady hand to set. Dexterity is the obvious choice.


dodge - Agility
parry - Agility


Both to parry blows and to avoid them requires a warrior to position his body skillfully and rapidly. Therefore agility is needed.

distance weapons - Dexterity
poisoning - Dexterity
puncture weapons - Dexterity


The more technical weapon classes require someone to be careful and steady handed. Dexterity allows accurate control of these weapons.

slashing weapons - Agility

Swinging something bladed around requires a more general hand to eye co-ordination and so agility should be chosen instead of dexterity.

tactics - Intelligence

Understanding the art of war requires a great mind indeed.

wrestling - Strength
concussion weapons - Strength


Strength based disciplines need strength to be effective.

alchemy - Intelligence

Memorising numerous ingredients and recipies and devising new ones requires a clever mind. Moreso than dropping ingredients into a cauldron requires a dexterous hand.

flute - Dexterity
harp - Dexterity
lute - Dexterity


Fiddly intruments require quick fingers and so dexterity is needed.

horn - Constitution

However blowing into a horn only needs big lungs. :)
Genese is french for Genesis meaning 'Birth' or 'Beginning'. So one would assume its something to do with a form of creation magic. If so, Essence would again be the obvious choice.
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Kamilar
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Re: Call for opinions: Lead attributes

Post by Kamilar »

language skills -- int
baking -- perc
carpentry -- dex
dying and tanning -- perc
fishing -- perc
gemcutting -- perc or dex, I can't decide
glass blowing -- dex
goldsmithing -- same as gemcutting
herb lore -- perc
lumberjacking -- con
mining -- con
peasantry -- what's this? dunno... con?
stealing -- agi
tailoring -- dex

mage skills -- no opinion

library research -- int
Stealth -- agi (??)
traps -- agi (??)

concussion weapons -- str
distance weapons -- perc
parry -- perc
dodge -- perc
poisoning -- con
puncture weapons -- agi
slashing weapons -- str
tactics -- int
wrestling -- agi

alchemy -- perc

flute -- dex
harp -- dex
horn -- cons, dunno why
lute -- dex


And because I need to put my two cents in...

The RPG guide quite specifically says that players should choose stats based on the idea of their characters backgrounds rather than in an attempt to squeak as much benefit as possible from the game mechanics because the game is under development and subject to change. That being said, I am in favor of giving players the opportunity to change their stats, but I think it should be at the expense of some skill points and allowed as often as the players wish to pay the price rather than as a one-time opportunity.
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Tanistian_Kanea
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Post by Tanistian_Kanea »

if you change how the stats effect the skills it changes how the skills need to be allocated if the background is a specific trade for instance.

some people have suggested that not all crafting skills should be based on dexterity.

if i was creating a character and i wanted him to be the best tailor there is then i would have high dex right now. so i assign my stats and i have good dex 17 (to bea good tailor since that's the story)

and have modest perception 8 (lil below average because i wanted to be able to move a little quicker in the forest and such, my character was "nimble on all terrain" as well as being a gifted tailor.)

now with what Estralis wrote
Estralis Seborian wrote:


language skills-intelligence

baking - perception
blacksmithing - strength
carpentry - dexterity
dying and tanning - dexterity
fireing bricks - dexterity
fishing - willpower
gemcutting - dexterity
glass blowing - constitution
goldsmithing - dexterity
herb lore - intelligence
lumberjacking - strength
mining - strength
peasantry - dexterity
smithing - strength
stealing - agility
tailoring - perception
you will notice that perception is now the key trait for tailoring. all of a sudden the character I built a background of being a "great tailor" is harder because now the mechanics (the stats) do not support this.

Another example would be magic. Someone may wish the character to be better at one kind of magic rather then another and because the main stats are changing they may inadvertently be more skilled at another instead.

Because of things like this I think that everyone should get a chance to reset their skills. A one shot reset button would do for all characters made before this change is made.

The final reason is that even though it is told not to set stats for game mechanics and not to make min/max characters ext. this is done. I for one like making min/max characters (to an extent) because it makes my strengths stronger and me weaknesses weaker. For me it just make my characters more defined. however I do this carefully knowing how it will effect me IG and how it will fit my character and story.
(very dextrous is almost superhuman. incredibly fast is now greased lightning, a weak body is now point to breaking if you turn so fast)

so i to would be negatively effected by this change for something i did with good rp reason. thank you for reading this novel.
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Hawkmoon
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Re: Call for opinions: Lead attributes

Post by Hawkmoon »

Kamilar wrote:language skills -- int
baking -- perc
carpentry -- dex
dying and tanning -- perc
fishing -- perc
gemcutting -- perc or dex, I can't decide
glass blowing -- dex
goldsmithing -- same as gemcutting
herb lore -- perc
lumberjacking -- con
mining -- con
peasantry -- what's this? dunno... con?
stealing -- agi
tailoring -- dex

mage skills -- no opinion

library research -- int
Stealth -- agi (??)
traps -- agi (??)

concussion weapons -- str
distance weapons -- perc
parry -- perc
dodge -- perc
poisoning -- con
puncture weapons -- agi
slashing weapons -- str
tactics -- int
wrestling -- agi

alchemy -- perc

flute -- dex
harp -- dex
horn -- cons, dunno why
lute -- dex


And because I need to put my two cents in...

The RPG guide quite specifically says that players should choose stats based on the idea of their characters backgrounds rather than in an attempt to squeak as much benefit as possible from the game mechanics because the game is under development and subject to change. That being said, I am in favor of giving players the opportunity to change their stats, but I think it should be at the expense of some skill points and allowed as often as the players wish to pay the price rather than as a one-time opportunity.
Well I agree one should choose attributes according to the background. But let say one have chosen to be an acrobat and therefore have chosen to have good agility and good dexterity to be able to control his body well. Now all the sudden the dexterity would be a waste since you just have changed the meaning of the attribute of dexterity and on top of that you also want to punish that char? Same would happen with the example above yours with the tailor. If changes this big will occur all who can motivate changing should be able to do so.
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Thanks for the valuable input! I'll try to evaluate all posted lists.

And don't get paniced, Illarion won't change drastically anytime soon.
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Ssar'ney
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Post by Ssar'ney »

Sorry, a bit late.

I did thought less about balancing and such, more about what one would need irl for all the funny stuff.
Over all I believe that there are too much of our attributes in the game. (For example speed, dex, perc have a close meaning, the description about essence tells nothing about what it is)
Less of them would make it easier to create a char one does want at the first, not the third or foutht try.
Over all I´d prefer to have some few "Class-Atributes" like "Fighting","Wizardy",... (or body and spirit,...) for each "skill-class" where I can put my points to at the beginning, maybe with a small focus on a certain skill.
But to come back to what was asked:

language skills :arrow: int

baking :arrow: perc
blacksmithing :arrow: dex
carpentry :arrow: dex
dying and tanning ?
fireing bricks ?
fishing :arrow: str
gemcutting :arrow: dex
glass blowing :arrow: dex
goldsmithing :arrow: perc
herb lore :arrow: perc
lumberjacking :arrow: str
mining :arrow: str
peasantry ?
smithing :arrow: dex
stealing :arrow: Roleplayed, dammnit.
tailoring :arrow: dex

commotio ?
desicio ?
genese ?
magic resistance :arrow: const //I think the ability of ones body to react to influences and making countermeasures would be that. The basic magical damage should be depending on the essence the "victim" has.
pervestigatio ?
transformo ?
transfreto ?

library research :arrow: int
Stealth :arrow: dex
traps (no idea for what its for)
putting traps into the landscape :arrow: int
seeing traps :arrow: perc
disabling traps :arrow: dex

concussion weapons :arrow: str
distance weapons :arrow: perc
dodge :arrow: perc
parry :arrow: const
poisoning :arrow: perc
puncture weapons :arrow: dex
slashing weapons :arrow: str
tactics :arrow: int
wrestling :arrow: const

alchemy :arrow: int

flute :arrow: dex
harp :arrow: dex
horn :arrow: dex
lute :arrow: dex
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Friedwulfa
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Re: Call for opinions: Lead attributes

Post by Friedwulfa »

Estralis Seborian wrote:
baking - Wahrnehmung, da ich denke das das Schmecken im Vordergrund liegt, Stärke wäre unnütz und Geschicklichkeit müsste höchstens ein Konditor haben, den Rest macht einfach die Erfahrung.

blacksmithing - Kraft. Geschicklichkeit ist am ehesten beim beenden der Arbeit. Aber eher unnötig.

carpentry - Wahrnehmung und Geschick denk ich, in Maßen auch Kraft, wobei beim Hobeln eher Ausdauer und Wahrnehmung vonnöten ist

gemcutting - Geschick und in hohem Maße Wahrnehmung

glass blowing - Geschick

goldsmithing - Um weiche Metalle zu bearbeiten würde ich sagen, Ausdauer und Geschick. Jeder der mal versucht hat ne Kugel aus 2 Kupferstücken zu formen wird mir da beipflichten ;)

lumberjacking - Kraft Kraft und Kraft

mining - siehe oben ;)

smithing - ? Hö?

magic resistance - Klare Sache, Rassenvorteil Zwerge lach

dodge - Geschick und Schnelligkeit

parry - Geschick und Kraft
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Djironnyma
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Re: Call for opinions: Lead attributes

Post by Djironnyma »

language skills :arrow: Intelligence

commotio :arrow: Essence
desicio :arrow: Essence
genese :arrow: .. well we will see if we know for what these skill is
magic resistance :arrow: Willpower
pervestigatio :arrow: Essence
transformo :arrow: Essence
transfreto :arrow: Essence

library research :arrow: Intelligence

Indeed i would prefer much more a system which use more as one attribute for the magic skills, but if there is only the opinion that there need to be one attribute per skill, this would be essence.
Last edited by Djironnyma on Fri May 29, 2009 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pepe Zwirnfaden
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Re: Call for opinions: Lead attributes

Post by Pepe Zwirnfaden »

Friedwulfa wrote:
Estralis Seborian wrote:
baking - Wahrnehmung, da ich denke das das Schmecken im Vordergrund liegt, Stärke wäre unnütz und Geschicklichkeit müsste höchstens ein Konditor haben, den Rest macht einfach die Erfahrung.

blacksmithing - Kraft. Geschicklichkeit ist am ehesten beim beenden der Arbeit. Aber eher unnötig.

carpentry - Wahrnehmung und Geschick denk ich, in Maßen auch Kraft, wobei beim Hobeln eher Ausdauer und Wahrnehmung vonnöten ist

gemcutting - Geschick und in hohem Maße Wahrnehmung

glass blowing - Geschick

goldsmithing - Um weiche Metalle zu bearbeiten würde ich sagen, Ausdauer und Geschick. Jeder der mal versucht hat ne Kugel aus 2 Kupferstücken zu formen wird mir da beipflichten ;)

lumberjacking - Kraft Kraft und Kraft

mining - siehe oben ;)

smithing - ? Hö?

magic resistance - Klare Sache, Rassenvorteil Zwerge lach

dodge - Geschick und Schnelligkeit

parry - Geschick und Kraft
Schmieden: hierfür braucht man eingentlich mehr Geschick als Kraft, hab selbst mal geschmiedet und die Kraft kommt durch die richtige Technik von allein^^.

Schreiner: hier braucht man sicher auch hauptsächlich Handwerkliches Geschick

Edelstein schleifen: Wahrnehmung

Glasbläserei: Geschick !

Goldschmieden: natürlich auch Geschick

Holzfällen: eigentlich ja auch Geschick, aber für Illarion passt Kraft besser.

Mining: Kraft

Magische Wiederstandskraft: Willenskraft

Ausweichen: schnelligkeit

Parrieren: Wahrnehmung

Schneidern: Geschick

Kräutersammeln: Wahrnehmung

(Lesen): Inteligenz

Tacktik: inteligenz
Kappa
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Post by Kappa »

Ich höre immer Geschick.. ja es mag realistisch sein aber wäre für die Balance nicht besser die Attribute über die Fertigkeiten gleichmäßig zu verteilen?
Realismus ist nicht alles..


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I always read Dexterity.. Yes, it may be realistic but for balance I would encourage to spread the attributes more or less equally over the skills.
Realism isnt all and everything..
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Lennier
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Post by Lennier »

Es geht darum plausible Abhängigkeiten zu schaffen die jeder versteht. Von daher ist eine gewisse Realitätsnähe nicht verkehrt. Es wäre schlecht zu vermitteln, warum ein Schreiner Geschick braucht, ein Schmied aber nicht. Beides ist Handwerk.
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Thanks again to all of you!

I've evaluated the posts above and in most cases, the votum was pretty clear. When it wasn't, well, I picked one popular option.

Here are the "clear" cases:

language skills :arrow: INT

baking :arrow: DEX
blacksmithing :arrow: DEX
carpentry :arrow: DEX
dying and tanning :arrow: DEX
fireing bricks :arrow: DEX
fishing :arrow: DEX
gemcutting :arrow: DEX
glass blowing :arrow: DEX
goldsmithing :arrow: DEX
herb lore :arrow: PER
lumberjacking :arrow: STR
mining :arrow: STR
peasantry :arrow: CON
smithing :arrow: DEX
stealing :arrow: DEX
tailoring :arrow: DEX

library research :arrow: INT
Stealth :arrow: AGI
traps :arrow: DEX

alchemy :arrow: INT

And these are a bit controversal. I wrote down the opinion of the majority:

commotio :arrow: INT
desicio :arrow: ESS
genese :arrow: WTF
magic resistance :arrow: WIL
pervestigatio :arrow: INT/ESS (tie)
transformo :arrow: ESS
transfreto :arrow: ESS

concussion weapons :arrow: STR
distance weapons :arrow: PER
dodge :arrow: AGI
parry :arrow: AGI
poisoning :arrow: DEX
puncture weapons :arrow: AGI
slashing weapons :arrow: STR
tactics :arrow: INT
wrestling :arrow: STR

flute :arrow: DEX
harp :arrow: DEX
horn :arrow: CON
lute :arrow: DEX

On magic: The Illarion magic system is a complicated monster. This is reflected by the multitude of opinions. Personally, I'd make INT primary attribute for all magic skills except magic resistance, here, ESS should apply.

On fighting: I sense that many want to kill DEX as fighter attribute "because fighters should not craft". This is the strange "Verhinderitis" ("preventitis") that killed so much fun of Illarion. So, I'd like to make a proposal that is backed up by many votes, but not the majority:

puncture weapons :arrow: AGI -> DEX!

AGI looks a bit overpowered and DEX underpowered. Discuss!

On music: I assume these skills might be dropped one day when we have bard magic. Until then, I'd go with the choice of the majority.

General remark: This is not about calculations of e.g. rates of success in first place. In future, still, a multitude of attributes will affect skills of any kind. But one lead attribute, e.g. for skillgain, has to be chosen to say: "As archer, you should put many points on perception" and not "Well, put 12 on PER, 14 on STR, 10 on INT and dump CON - otherwise, you'd suck as archer".

PS: I have absolutely no idea what "genese" is.
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Kevin Lightdot
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Post by Kevin Lightdot »

This is from a combat oriented point of view, I didn't ever really do/know much about crafting.

Screw realism, balance skills so that aside from weapon attributes there is no 'super weapon skill' that everyone will use.

I understand people love agi but I agree with estralis on it's OP-ness.

concussion weapons STR
parry STR
poisoning DEX
puncture weapons DEX
slashing weapons AGI
dodge AGI

2x everything, with the exeption of these 3 special ones, one having a perhaps 'lesser' fighting stat, and the other two being much unused, though archers get kind of nerfed even more, perhaps it should hold 2 main stats which matter equally.

tactics INT
wrestling STR
distance weapons PER (+AGI)

Though this setup might slightly favor poison daggers, with working poison a strong combo I assume, though these would miss out on dodging and parrying like this, so perhaps not so badly unbalanced.

With the lack of group combat in Illarion, and thus the lack of needing 'tank' classes, perhaps constitution is need of something to promote aswell, perhaps it should affect the loss of stamina (food bar).


For magic I would also say the same, so that there can be more kinds of mages, that are good at x but not as good at y and the other way around, not so that all mages can be either good at everything or good at nothing in their field. This might also make warlocks a slightly more valid solution(as I remember them being quite underpowered, and needing double the time training to get the same skill levels).
Don't put everything in magic on essence or any other single stat IMO.

Late input, but still usefull I hope :P
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

I think i'd rather see something like this

concussion weapons: STR
Distance weapons: PERC
parry: DEX
poisoning: PERC
puncture weapons: AGI
slashing weapons: STR
dodge: AGI
Wrestling: DEX

If anything is underpowered its the use of perception rather then DEX. I vote against constantly putting of puncture weapons and poisoning as a matched set with the same attribute. Lets at least make people spread the stats a bit to be good at both skills (with the lack of NPC antidotes i want poisoning to have as many difficulties as possible :wink: )

In the realm of wrestling i think DEX should be a bit more important then simple pure strength, and strength the secondary attribute. If we're speaking about a kind of fighting where you're inclined to use position and leverage against the mechanic of an Human(shaped) body. while some strength is required proper technique and the dexterity to use proper technique seems like it would be more important

Parry i think should be the other DEX based stat. Agility is more of a dodge orientated, you want to be fast to get out of the way of the blow. In parrying though your fending off one object with another, so being fast really takes a back seat to being accurate with using your shield.


those me my thoughts ATM
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Hawkmoon
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Post by Hawkmoon »

As I see it I feel it is kinda strange strength should be that important. Maybe when it comes to the damage dealt - there it should have a bit of importance.

I think Strength should make the char being able to wear heavier armor without penalties in the movement and also carry things overall. Maybe even set some minimum requirements of strength for some weapons? That together should be enough for a warrior to want to have that attribute as I see it.
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Pepe Zwirnfaden
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Post by Pepe Zwirnfaden »

wrestling :arrow: AGI

"wrestling" ist Waffenloser Kampf, also kann das je nachdem wie der Spiele es auspielt, Boxen, Karate oder auch Ringen sein.

Das einzige Volk was laut Illarion hintergrund eine tradition im Waffenlosen Kampf hat sind die Serinjah, und diese nutzen bevorzugt Ellenbogen und Knie.
Also eher eine Moderne Kampfart, vieleicht mit Kickboxen zu vergleichen.

Und bei fast allen modernen Kampfarten kommt es mehr auf Schnelligkeit und Geschick als auf die Stärke an.

Geschick würde ich nicht unbedingt nehmen, weil es schon bei allen Handwerksskills genutzt wird.

concussion weapons: STR
Distans weapon: PERC
Parry: DEX
dodge: AGI
puncture weapons: AGI
slashing weapons: STR
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Pepe Zwirnfaden wrote:Geschick würde ich nicht unbedingt nehmen, weil es schon bei allen Handwerksskills genutzt wird.
*Gebetsmühle anwerf*

Ich möchte diesem Argument seine Daseinsberechtigung absprechen. Viel mehr würde ich versuchen, positive Beweggründe zu finden. Das Ergebnis ist das gleiche, aber die Denkweise eine andere. Sprich: Statt "Mach nicht A, weil B" würde ich lieber eine Sichtweise wie "Mach C weil D" verbreiten.

Was bedeutet das hier? Ich denke, wenn man schon auf Balance achtet, dann deswegen, dass jedes Attribut seinen Nutzen haben sollte. Derzeit hat DEX einen hohen Nutzen für Handwerker. Das ist doch nichts schlimmes! Es ist eher ein Problem, dass z.B. WIL vergleichsweise unnütz ist und dass AGI & INT die wichtigsten Attribute für einen Kämpfer sind. "Da hat wohl einer den Schuss nicht gehört" mag man denken - Illarion ist ein gewachsenes Produkt, ohne großen Masterplan. Daher gibt es solche Merkwürdigkeiten und nur mit einer positiven Grundstimmung kann man den derzeitigen Zustand verbessern.
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Post by Kappa »

Kevin Lightdot wrote:Screw realism, balance skills [...]
*signs*
Not only for Combat for all skills.. I see close to all Crafting connected to DEX :(
Athian wrote:If we're speaking about a kind of fighting where you're inclined to use position and leverage against the mechanic of an Human(shaped) body. while some strength is required proper technique and the dexterity to use proper technique seems like it would be more important
My expieriences are that the stronger fighter (in nearly all combastsprots) gots a big andvantage getting his action/technique successful done, especially unarmed.
Pepe Zwirnfaden wrote:Und bei fast allen modernen Kampfarten kommt es mehr auf Schnelligkeit und Geschick als auf die Stärke an.
Beides, nur im modernen Wettkampfsport ist die Stärke etwas unterepresentiert da es oft nur auf Treffer und wenig auf Wirkung ankommt.
Aber selbst da merkt man das der Schlag/die Technik eines 40 kg Mädches leichter abzuwehren ist als eines 90 kg Typen.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

My expieriences are that the stronger fighter (in nearly all combastsprots) gots a big andvantage getting his action/technique successful done, especially unarmed.
Combat sports tends to have rules that give the stronger person the advantage. In a fight the rules are generally much different, in the fact that they don't exist.

I'm not saying strength isn't a feature. "Some" strength is always required, but when facing off with an opponent it's not always needed to use your full strength to make a technique effective, especially when you can rely on the mechanics of the human body and simple physic's.

the term wrestling has always been misleading in the fact that most view it as simple brawling. if that is the case why have skill gain for it at all. We can all simply have basic skill and let our stats in Constitution and strength decide the winner :wink:

I still vote for DEX>STR. let Strength be second most important^^
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

I want to remind you all that this is not about making only one attribute matter for each action. You can be pretty sure that a sword fighter still needs to have a high AGI, DEX, STR, CON,... to pwn. But I want to trace one individual attribute that can be called "lead attribute".

So, for a sword fighter again, the damage done could be determined by STR and as secondary attributes AGI and DEX. The chance to hit is determined by DEX and AGI. The chance to parry a blow might be related to AGI, DEX and PER or whatever. But in the end, I want to have one attribute for the skill. This poll originally targeted on one attribute that modifies skillgain for said skills. Currently, INT is this "lead attribute" for all skills. So, when you want to become a good archer, chose high INT. WTF!
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Post by Llama »

Estralis Seborian wrote:On fighting: I sense that many want to kill DEX as fighter attribute "because fighters should not craft". This is the strange "Verhinderitis" ("preventitis") that killed so much fun of Illarion.
I'm sorry Estralis, but the "fighters should not craft" isn't what's going to kill fun in illarion, its the other way around.

If a fighter can get anything he wants from looting, and can craft, then he's not going to require any items. If he doesn't require any items, then the people who are REAL crafters, who's only income is crafting, will not earn any money.

And that is the main problem here, fighters who make their own armor and weapons. They don't even need to sell it to effect the economy. In the end you have very rich fighters with a ton of money, a depot full of magical weapons, just sitting around - and a bunch of poor crafters who have lost their will to play (because creating stuff just to level up is boring).
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

(because creating stuff just to level up is boring).
Then make it exciting! Make crafting fun! Fighting is fun. So don't nerf it to the level of suck-i-ness of crafting.

What I want to say: Let fighters craft as much as they want, but let crafters also have their "pros". We have no class system, there are no "crafters" and "fighters". We have characters. And those who decide to get their stuff via crafting rather than looting should spend less or equal effort to get stuff. And when somebody wants to split his role to a fighter/crafter, find positive reasons to encourage focussing on one aspect, not spoiling anything.

It is not the topic itself, it is the attitude. Try not to prevent fun or benefits of certain actions, give all actions their benefit. This is a bit harder, but in the end, we'll end up with a better game. So, make crafting easier and more enjoyable! Get crackin' ;-)!
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Post by Llama »

You can make crafting as fun as you like - however people do 'work' so they can feel rewarded. Its rewarding to earn a lot of cash in the game, that's why people PG their character, its rewardign to be rich, and to feel like people actually NEED your services.

You can make crafting as fun as you like, however until the player feels that all his effort is being rewarded, its still not going to be fun.

People like being appriciated, and part of this appriciation is people interacting with the character in a way that they appriciate all the work you've done on him.

There's no positive way of forcing fighters to buy stuff instead of making them themselves - even if I make super-mega armor only avaliable to those who have worked hard for it, the fighters will merely wait until they can afford it.

A slightly possible way of making fighters buy stuff (but which will ruin low level crafters) is to make different armor have a staggering difference in ability. That the second best light armor doesn't compare to the best - however that will ruin low level crafters.

I don't think there is a possible way of pro-ing pure crafters to make fighters not move into that area.

When illarion is said to allow you to do ANYTHING, it should allow you to make a living from ANYTHING.
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

When illarion is said to allow you to do ANYTHING, it should allow you to make a living from ANYTHING.
I totally agree!
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Post by Hawkmoon »

It is only about skillgain you say. Well, if one is clever that person should learn faster as I see it. Think it is good as it is there. What maybe should be clearer is that good attributes makes the char use the skill in a better way. Maybe make the attributes more important than it is now instead of making it easier to learn just because you are strong? I mean the skill represent how well you have learned the techniques of every skill - is it not? And skill combined with attributes decide how good the char is in what he do.

I mean just because a char is smart and learn techniques easily in theory does not mean that he can fully take advantage of the technqiues - there the char need other attributes to be able to turn the knowledge into practical use if you see what I mean.

This is how I think it should be and how I thought it was like now.
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Post by Llama »

Currently here's how it works:

Intelligence makes you learn faster
Attributes are tagged onto your skill, giving you a bonus of sorts.

So if your skill in smithing is X, the attributes will make the effective skill X+k - that's why crafters can make new things when they get a +dex day.
-
The problem with the system is simply that Int is too important, since attributes are simply bonuses - that makes the game a bit too one-sided. Sure it makes sense, but its not fun.
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Post by Hawkmoon »

Hadrian_Abela wrote:Currently here's how it works:

Intelligence makes you learn faster
Attributes are tagged onto your skill, giving you a bonus of sorts.

So if your skill in smithing is X, the attributes will make the effective skill X+k - that's why crafters can make new things when they get a +dex day.
-
The problem with the system is simply that Int is too important, since attributes are simply bonuses - that makes the game a bit too one-sided. Sure it makes sense, but its not fun.
Well... As I see it intelligence sure makes you learn quicker but that obstacle you can overcome by simply work harder. I do not see Intelligence as overpowered at all.
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Post by Aldan Vian »

Hawkmoon wrote:
Hadrian_Abela wrote:Currently here's how it works:

Intelligence makes you learn faster
Attributes are tagged onto your skill, giving you a bonus of sorts.

So if your skill in smithing is X, the attributes will make the effective skill X+k - that's why crafters can make new things when they get a +dex day.
-
The problem with the system is simply that Int is too important, since attributes are simply bonuses - that makes the game a bit too one-sided. Sure it makes sense, but its not fun.
Well... As I see it intelligence sure makes you learn quicker but that obstacle you can overcome by simply work harder. I do not see Intelligence as overpowered at all.

It really is great having maxed intel though. :D
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Post by Llama »

Hawkmoon wrote:Well... As I see it intelligence sure makes you learn quicker but that obstacle you can overcome by simply work harder. I do not see Intelligence as overpowered at all.
But for the same given amount of time - a person with a maxed out intel will learn FAR MORE than a person without that maxed out intel.

The 'work harder' argument isn't very valid, because you can 'work harder' when you have maxed out int - which causes a large gap.
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Post by Aldan Vian »

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Hawkmoon wrote:Well... As I see it intelligence sure makes you learn quicker but that obstacle you can overcome by simply work harder. I do not see Intelligence as overpowered at all.
But for the same given amount of time - a person with a maxed out intel will learn FAR MORE than a person without that maxed out intel.

The 'work harder' argument isn't very valid, because you can 'work harder' when you have maxed out int - which causes a large gap.

ITs true. With maxed intel I can sit there with almost any skill and work on it for a VERY long time and I'll never hit the skill cap. The work harder thing really isen't Valid at all and those with higher intel have a large advantage over everyone else.
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