How does the "atmosphere" of Illarion feel like?

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Karrock
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Post by Karrock »

Taliss Kazzxs wrote:I kinda dislike the current atmosphere of Gobaith..there is no longer any good and evil, black and white. Everything from the nobles to the cults from the knights to the bandits, its all grey.
What is good or evil it's hard to defind.
Even in past most evil kings and rulers like Elagabalus were quicly killed by conspirattors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabal). Making "evil" gang with strong structure is impossible to make because none can get power based on total exploitation of his servants and enemies. If most of people can benefit from a "evil" plan they will join. Largest victims are always the few like 5-30 percents. The best example are Lenin and communism.
However playing as good giving too little strong friendships ("why do you defend him he's our enemy - yes but he's is right we are doomed by gods - ignore him he's retard"). Instead it's unprofitable and boring.
Estralis Seborian wrote:I agree with Nitram; Illarion lacks a true, defined atmosphere. We have plenty of wierd stories about the main land, but what happens in the game is shaped by the players. And this, on the one hand, makes Illarion rather unique, but on the other hand, makes it hard for players to orientate and maintain a certain "red thread".
From my experience of this kind of games I know even Illar would have got a ever flowing story which players could read most of them still will ignore it. Most wanted is story here on island.
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Joxia Doral
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Post by Joxia Doral »

Taliss Kazzxs wrote:I kinda dislike the current atmosphere of Gobaith..there is no longer any good and evil, black and white. Everything from the nobles to the cults from the knights to the bandits, its all grey.
Grey is a good colore when your not sure if your going to go black or white... :P
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Hawkmoon
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Post by Hawkmoon »

Aegohl wrote:
Hawkmoon wrote:If we don't want democracy in the game world - then countries like Salkamar should not exist.
Salkamar is not democratic. It's not even a Republic. Hell, it's not even a contracted monarchy. It's a dictatorship like anywhere else in the gameworld with the exception that it has a tradition of welfare and a certain amount of equality.

I think of Salkamar as a culture that sprung up during a rather romantic age in art and philosophy and holds true to that heritage of being the idealistic wild child of the world. However, to it's people the nobles of Salkamar are like hippy parents. On one hand they allow you a lot freedom and room to experiment. On the other hand, they named you "Sprite Flower," embarrassed you by smoking pot with your friends, and let you get away with mischief when they should have been setting boundaries. For all it's high ideals, Salkamar is still a dictatorship, there's still economic duality between nobles and the lowest orders, and nobles still get away with murder or worse.
Yes, I understand what you mean and it is pretty much how I had picture it as well, but I must say that what I mean with democracy here is not that it truly is democracy, but the IDEA of democracy seem to exist in Salkamar when reading about it. It feels like the nobles want to show themself as a representative of the people but they don't seem to risk their positions as nobles.

I quote from Illapedia:
"3.1 Lightfolk (Salkamaerian)
They live in towns, villages and castles. The origin of the Salkamaerian way of life is the old city Salkamar. It is also the origin of the common language and writing system.

The Salkamaerian way of life means respect, honour, and loyalty. It is a noble one. All children learn reading and writing. Slavery is forbidden by law and a military education is offered to all members of poorer families for free. The Salkamaerian kings and nobles are understand to be representatives of the people and are often wise and good regents. Cities are ruled by male or female lords; males and females have equal rights. The Salkamaerian culture is open to strangers, and without prejudice.

Salkamaerian poets, bards and philosophers are well known to the world, as well as Salkamaerian paladins, who fight for their honourable virtues and humanity. Zhambra, Oldra, Sirani, Elara and Malachín are the most supported gods in Salkamaerian towns."


I mean it surely seem like there are many idealic ideas in Salkamar - and many of those have already been accepted. I mean... Equal rights for men and women, school for every children, tolerating to other cultures, and humanity as the foundation of all ideas. It is obvious old ideas with people born as nobles and so collide with the humane and the idea of all people are equal but just look at Sweden nowadays. We have a monarchy where the people are born into a role. In salkamar this goes a step futher and include more people who have benefits from birth (nobles). In sweden we believe we are democratic but monarchy is not especially demorcratic after all. This could be the fact in Salkamar as well as I see it. The nobles are not especially democratic but since all other people are equals and since most nobels sure are ruling in a fair and wise way(and since the people probably have another view of what is normal than we do they can overlook the ones not behaving far more than we would), then the ideas of democracy probably is there - even if there are no true democracy in the society.

Hmm.. Not sure if you get what I mean, but I have tried to give my view of it... =)
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Llama
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Post by Llama »

So have we at least concluded that

"Either we have a everyone is equal democracy or we terrorise the town" is an incredibly stupid part of the atmosphere? Even if one's character comes from Salkmaer or wherever?
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Nalzaxx
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Post by Nalzaxx »

I don't think its possible to conclude anything from this nonsensical debate.
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Joxia Doral
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Post by Joxia Doral »

Estralis Seborian
Gamemaster
So - "chaotic" is my answer.



Chaotic...yes thats it.
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Vern Kron
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Post by Vern Kron »

Because this thread has become what it is currently, I will post.

For all of those who say TB should not be a democracy, or whatever it -used- to be, there is one thing that you are forgetting.

History.

TB used to be an elected system, and then it became a town of nobility. People still want it to be an elected system. Why? Because they remember it as such. How do they remember, since there are many new players who all seem to recall that it was democracy? Figure that out yourself.

It is annoying to see this conflict always taken oocly. I joined the game, -before- the change happened. My characters do remember the time before. The change occurred. Do not think that 'Oh, these are all new players thinking in modern senses.' No. Its players who are using what was given to them in the past, by the veterans and players before them and making of it what they can.

If you are so displeased about people thinking about democracy now, that it must become an ooc dispute then I ask that you think back and find who -first- caused this elections to start. Blame them, and the people who allowed it. Do not blame the characters or the players of the current who are playing their character to the best of their ability.

To put it in another sense, it is a lot like slavery.

You take people from one land to another.
You remove their rights.
They will rebel.
The children who are being raised, will rebel because the older ones do.
And it will continue, until something is done about one side.

As to the 'Good vs. Evil' situation:

Currently, there are very few characters who are 'knights in shining armor'. Those that are, probably aren't all knights.

Then there is the Evil. There are a few characters that are simply put, 'evil' and manipulative.
There are many groups that are simply older players who have gotten tired of playing nice, making an evil char and beating people up for a while. To make the game interesting for them while still maintaining what their other character was. Or perhaps they used their older character and turned him evil. Why? Because many see evil as more fun.
There was for a very long time, a heavy presence of 'good' characters, and to balance it a smaller select few of 'evil' characters who were much stronger.

That balance has shifted significantly, and instead of real 'good' or 'evil' we have lots of just... not caring.
Lots of inactivity. And a lot of evil characters. It is indeed an IG issue, but one that I feel the intense urge to speak about here for some reason, probably because it was mentioned earlier.

@ Wars and Battles of the current:
Why do people preach peace in the street and not 'Kill the dwarves/humans!'?

Simple. The battles are short. The tactics are simple. The sheer numbers out power the other side usually. It’s not a battle. It’s usually a slaughter. The activity is rather stacked. The wars go into ooc -way- too much, as proven now. And, there is IG reasons as well as to TB people not truly supporting the war, but I won't say that here.



The opposition in 'how to run a country’ is that there are no countries on Gobaith. Towns are what rule the island, and not really towns more like Tribes. It does not take a brilliant person on how to run a town. To barely keep one above the water IRL is rather simple. Provide utilities, maintain some law, and so on. Very simple.

A lot of the IG atmosphere, is what was provided to the new players by the older players. A lot of the issues you all are fighting over are IG things. If you all oocly disliked the idea of democracy so much, then you shouldn't have allowed it in the first place nor taken it away in such a manner as just an abrupt end. Of course people are going to raise trouble. Of course there will be many new players being the 'best person in the world' because there is a very large balance to fill. It is not a surprise that people are opposed to these wars, because peace is a rather important aspect of life. While there is honor in dieing in wars back in the day, you did not see every craftsman going out with swords practicing on wolves. No. They needed peace. To craft. Of course they would want peace around their -own- town. It is relatively easy to 'rebuild' a town in terms of the current IG conditions, but if it wasn't and people had a bit more at stake, say, depots catching on fire and all of their goods burnt, they may take back their interest.

Now that I have gotten that out of my system, remember. Illarion is a game. It is an RPG. Step into the life of another using their memories and experiences to live their life.
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Joxia Doral
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Post by Joxia Doral »

Vern Korn wrote:
TB used to be an elected system, and then it became a town of nobility. People still want it to be an elected system. Why? Because they remember it as such. How do they remember, since there are many new players who all seem to recall that it was democracy?

I remember two elections taht had only a handfukl of voters during the WHOLE dwarven week that the poles were open...until Cromwell was elected...and who do you think the majority voters were then?
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Vern Kron
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Post by Vern Kron »

As opposed to now, when there is only a handful of voters allowed to vote, who do not vote. Or, anything, for that matter. And also, the active citizens have gone down considerably since the change, even with the war effort now IG. This isn't a matter of who is in charge and who voted. Its a matter of 'This was IG, so people will still remember it being IG, and it is undeniably a part of the game even if people oocly do not believe it should be, ooc doesn't matter its what our characters want.'
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Olaf Tingvatn
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Post by Olaf Tingvatn »

Vern Kron wrote:As opposed to now, when there is only a handful of voters allowed to vote, who do not vote. Or, anything, for that matter. And also, the active citizens have gone down considerably since the change, even with the war effort now IG. This isn't a matter of who is in charge and who voted. Its a matter of 'This was IG, so people will still remember it being IG, and it is undeniably a part of the game even if people oocly do not believe it should be, ooc doesn't matter its what our characters want.'

exactly:) choices are made by characters and not the player..allthough i could be horribly wrong...but, In Game IllaRION is getting slightly out of hand in my opinion..its like it cant progress without wars..hm..i remember when i first came to IllaRION..so peaceful it was a joy to play..now? choose a side and then prepare to make another character or to be clouded X amount of times. and still a joy..well mostly since im not 'there' when the battles are fought.. :D
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Aegohl
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Post by Aegohl »

The democracies were a waste of time, and I'm talking as someone who has witnessed every last one of them in the history of Illarion. There was one that even remotely worked, I would say (and that was more like a contracted monarchy with an elected representative of the people) and that was short term. No matter what government is in, most people will bitch about it, and the least amount of people will vote.
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Juliana D'cheyne
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Post by Juliana D'cheyne »

If voting was ooc then IMO that is different from ig. I only have one char "learned" enough that cares about politics enough to vote yet due to the profession is "neutral". In other words "in character voting" can have a lot of ramifications other then not caring. As far as what you knew when beginning the game.. some still remember King Fooser. :wink:
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Taliss Kazzxs
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Post by Taliss Kazzxs »

Taliss Kazzxs for Lizard King!
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Vern Kron
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Post by Vern Kron »

Juliana D'cheyne wrote:If voting was ooc then IMO that is different from ig. I only have one char "learned" enough that cares about politics enough to vote yet due to the profession is "neutral". In other words "in character voting" can have a lot of ramifications other then not caring. As far as what you knew when beginning the game.. some still remember King Fooser. :wink:
Precisely. The introduction and the goverment of TB is a total IG matter and the past says that the people know of democracy now. It can not be changed that people remember it. The voting was done IC, and if people did not vote that is their own issue. The fact that people are saying that democracy is not 'fitting' to Illa should in no way, shape, or form, have any impact on IG situations. It was IG. It is remembered. It thus has become fitting.
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Juliana D'cheyne
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Post by Juliana D'cheyne »

"Fitting?" I don't agree sorry, yes democracy was there, but the town has had other forms of government. It is only fitting for those characters that desire more representation not necessarily democracy yet this is characters not players. In separating ig and ooc I would say of course chars generally would like more say in their government, whether they have the ear of the King, or noble, or mayor. Ooc however, IMO the atmosphere would be more "medieval" with Kings, nobles, serfs etc. In discussing the "atmosphere" of Illarion, I don't see how that can be done ig at all because the player is giving their opinion not the char.
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Nalzaxx
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Post by Nalzaxx »

It is an unfortunate fact that IG politics and OOC politics are inexorably linked.

It has always been the case and it will most likely continue to be the case.

Infact this entire discussion is a fine example of OOC politics attempting to influence IG affairs.

It happens, can we as a community come to terms with that and move on?
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Mr. Cromwell
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Post by Mr. Cromwell »

I'll just say this:

One day we had werewolves and whatnot in the game, the second day staff said "No."

From that point on, we did not have a half-halfling-half demons and werewolves and whatever ingame anymore. The precedent is there. You cannot so easily cut a wedge between the two (IG/OOC), when the gamemasters can shape the IG happenings with an OOC decision, nearly at will. So, if the gamemasters feel that support for democracy in the context of IG Illaron is a radical position, they may say that.. and then perhaps it's up to the players to evaluate their characters and decide, whether or not their characters actually are raving radicals or not. This doesn't make supporting democracy inherently wrong, but it authorizes others IG to give pro-democrats odd looks and the ridicule they (in my OOC opinion :P) deserve. Opinions of characters can change, like political opinions of people change in real life (mine has over the years, anyway.. ;))

I also believe that a lot of the IG support for human rights, democracies, anti-discrimination and the like actually mirror the values of the players who play the characters. Just my personal opinion: I don't think they all can come from Salkamar with the democratic ideas and whatever. ;) Not that it's an inherently horrible thing, but I think the influence should be recognized when we talk about stuff like this.

PS.
I understand Vern's concerns regarding citizenship, and perhaps some additional incentives should be created to encourage that. HOWEVER, my personal opinion is that since FOREVER, the population of TB has been relatively inactive when it comes to basically anything.
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Daruis Marr
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Post by Daruis Marr »

orgis wrote: Other than that, iv hardly seen any char other than the odd mad raving preist talk about the gods lol
Ok, I'll accept mad and raving, but odd? C'mon!
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Post by Damien »

I thought a bit if i should post or not. But have my two cents.
From my view, the most illa staff people lacked to see two things :

1. Not many people except roleplayers will play a game that does not support some shiny stuff like pets, mounts, what-does-my-char-wear.
As a result, they will come in, check the game out, and leave immediately or after a few days. Or even leave as soon as they see some screenshots and find out "ohno its 2D" before even playing.

2. People who like roleplaying have a higher chance not to care as much for the shiny things, funny colours and furry companions. They might even come to like some people who think alike and stay, perhaps even for a few years.

Because of that, focus changed from roleplay to "we need more players of every possible type."

Focussing on bringing more "average" gamers into the game and putting less and less enforcement on roleplay, Account-tech-wise and rule-wise, does scare some roleplayers away. More in the long run. A few people learn to RP, but the fewest learn the fact that a good RPed character can have a totally different motivation than the player behind it.
Add the problem that by now, there are many Free-to-play- and RP-free 3D online worlds around. Some like Flyff even with a nice and usually friendly atmosphere. Illarion, not being developed by people who are paid for doing that and nothing else, has no chance to compete against such commercial but free projects. Players not interested in RP WILL most likely favour other games just because Illa is not 3D.

Result :

Illarion population changes in the long run from few long time players to many short-time-players. Overall, online player numbers don't increase much.

The influence on the game's atmosphere :
Most players don't know any background Info at all, most don't care anyway. The few who do a bit read a few parts and then change whatever they don't like or add whatever they like because the existing texts are hard to find and are not even directly listed on an easy-to-access-place.
Effect : The game atmosphere is best described as loose, locationally bound and outside of closed societies it's kinda chaotic and roleplay niveau has become more childish (many seem to think that "character depth" is defined by "i-make-him-evil-so-hes-kinda-cool-and-yeah-he'll-pray-to-moshran" so more than 70% of all characters are created to be "evil").
That's also one reason why even evil cultists seem dull and "grey" - because everyone is one, and none of them has the skill nor the resolve to play a cultist nor the whole cult like they would have to be played.
(--> In some city and creeds descriptions (perhaps one or two players have read them, most might not even be translated into english and you have to really dig in the Illapedia just to find them) it may be mentioned that cultists are executed kinda everywhere on the continent, that is if they don't kill each other before, may it be out of internal power struggles or because they couldn't get another human sacrifice in-time.

Short recap :
Moshran: Only strength counts, slay weaker ones until you're the last one standing, lets make some war, RAAAR.
Cherass : Boo, make some undead things kill some living so we have more bodies for making undead !
Cheerga : Oh, you are a pretty boy, lets make you kill your parents and then do something to you that you'll never forget and that noone usually survives. *guts*
Drargorog : Wheee we have some demon summoning stuff here, lets release them and slay everyone so only the strong ones survive.
)


All of that together makes illarion a place that can have some good and even nifty atmosphere in some locations where groups of people sit together and roleplay, but not in or around troll's bane, which does more look like a sandbox with axes, knifes, daggers and bloody sand. And some bunch of nerds who have "oh god i am evil" or "dirty deeds done dirt-cheap" written in red on black t-shirts. ;)

Speaking of that, i think that most players like to play wannabe-villains because they think that it's easy to do so. Playing a selfish, greedy or powerhungry char is a very easily defined character motivation: You don't have to think much about a character background when all he will do when people ask about his past is insult them or kick their balls. It's harder to think about the motivation, views, insight and character details of a more good natured character.
Plainly spoken, too many players prefer to play easily (and badly)-played wannabe-villain chars with cybersex attitude because they are either too lazy to think or because they just lack style.
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dwarvesarecool
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Post by dwarvesarecool »

To me, the gods remind of the pagan beliefs of the Germanic tribes in england, germany, and scandanavia.
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Dantagon Marescot
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Post by Dantagon Marescot »

Eh, delayed, but I'm bored soo deal with it.

The atmosphere of Illa to me is stagnant. Things are constant and no one is willing to make changes or do anything. The only people who are willing to do anything in this game are in it for themselves (character wise, not po) and won't do anything unless it benifits their character, not the game. I want to see things happen, I want people to want to make things happen. I don't mean wars or senceless bloodbaths (which is all wars turn into in this game), I mean balls, market days, celebrations, parties, anything to stimulate rp. Group events, guild partisipation, even town partisipation. I want to see people who want to play this game, not decide to do something and suddenly drop it because they are bored one day (we are in an rpg, we are playing an alternative life, of course life can be boring, why do you think we play games to begin with).

And for gods sakes people, this whole medival thing has to stop. Yes, by all means this is a medival like time period, but this isn't 1300's England. We are not replaying history, we are in an alternatate universe with alternative ideals. Plus this isle is a melting pot of civilizations. Different people with different views Perhaps they should try to stick together and create little Italy's or little China's of Trolls Bane or other towns.

I'm not gonna say weither or not we should have democracy or nobles in Trolls Bane. I will say that I know that neither system works because there are no checks or balances and that no one who isn't currently in the goverment wants to partisipate. It is the same reason why guilds are dying, either no one cares, or one person has to partisipate in everything. And partisipating in everything gets annoying.

The gods, hmm... Where the hell are they? The only people who seem to have any religion is the cultist, and even then it consists of "Moshran, kill for Moshran... I follow Moshran... Respect my authoraty!" Game wise I feel as though the gods should be important to the characters. Perhaps since the gm's refuse to play gods, they could play prophets, followers, or divine servants of these gods instead. The gods should come up in everyday conversation (well, almost). People should pray to certain gods dependant on what they are doing. Then reality sets in... Athiests... everywhere... Priests hold ceremonies and no one shows up because no one cares.

I guess that last sentance explains the atmosphere in the game. Uncaring. No one cares to add to the atmosphere of the game, just their character's pockets. The game is individualist because the players are. And frankly, it sucks.
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Post by Yechezqel_ »

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Post by Djironnyma »

Sorry yech, but ~that~ is the the biggest bullshit i read since ages. I m totally sure, that you get banned have other reasons as your religion.

The staff is mainly atheist. Here play people of different country, religion, sexuality, skincolour and language together. To say someone get banned in reason of his religion is totally laughable. To be serious, no one care a sh** about your religion.

Beside of that, this topic is not "complain about your ban". If you dont understand why you get banned wrote a e-mail to violations@illarion.org .
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Post by Zzesskan »

Maybe you play too often Dan.
I quit playing while at school and during summer come back to a new Illa. Stuff changes all the time; people come (and go ;_; ) engines change, new features get implemented. It takes time, like rl.

Agreeing with whoever said it first: There isn't a unified vision for Illa. That's probably why it feels stagnant. If you don't have a place marked on the map, it's damn hard to get there.

As for the atmosphere - Cold with a chance of snow? You run into friendly people now and then and it's like walking into a heated room, but the rest of the time it's kinda... chilly.
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Dantagon Marescot
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Post by Dantagon Marescot »

Actually Zzess, I barely played at all during the school year, but have noticed the same continuation of bs play out on the forums. It is stagnant because the same things repeat itself. People get bored and want something to happen, so wars start from the smallest, stupidest things. You plan an event or meeting and either no one RSVP's or no one attends depending on the event (unless it is a battle or quest, then everyone is there whether you want them or not).

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. As far as I am concerned, no one, players and characters alike have learned from it. Those that have get fed up and give up.
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Post by Harald Hradradr »

To keep it simple for once, to me the ig atmosphere is kinda chaotic anarchy.
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Deuce
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Post by Deuce »

I think the main problem is, is that alot of the players are creating characters, be it any race, and are not emphasizing any personality for their char, and are just logging in and acting as themselves as a person, or just pging a trade and shazz like that. If that makes any sense. Imo alot of the motivation for people to log in and play, is based upon the characters. characters with charisma and depth, who appear as interesting or 'cool' with a detailed back story that make
people think "I wanna rp with that char!".

The atmosphere I will admit can be a bit dull, because it's as if PO's are running out of ideas, or just want to log in for a nice chat by a fire.

I cant be bothered writing any more. Lol.
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Nalzaxx
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Post by Nalzaxx »

If you want atmosphere then you must create it. Bitching about other people's unwillingness to create atmosphere for you will do no good at all. Why must everyone hold the mentality that the entire ingame world must revolve around them and creating the best personal experience for them alone? There is no justification in saying, "You cannot play this way because it does not conform to my worldview concerning the game."

Yes people play for their own enjoyment and their own benefit, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. No-one should be expected to play, "For the greater good of the game." and such arguments are nonsense. People play to have fun, and people have most fun doing what they want. If you fail at creating the environment and atmosphere ingame that you want then it is no-one's fault but your own.

This entire discussion boils down to, "I want the game to work exactly how I envision it, and everything else is wrong." Make your story based on what Illarion is, do not try to change Illarion to fit your story.


Damien, you are the greatest offender of this here. I thanked the Gods when I learnt you were no longer in charge of the backstory because I thought it would be the end of crap like this:
(--> In some city and creeds descriptions (perhaps one or two players have read them, most might not even be translated into english and you have to really dig in the Illapedia just to find them) it may be mentioned that cultists are executed kinda everywhere on the continent, that is if they don't kill each other before, may it be out of internal power struggles or because they couldn't get another human sacrifice in-time.
Evidently I was wrong.

Suffice to say: The Temple are not cultists, we never claimed to be, and we wouldn't change if we were.
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Deuce
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Post by Deuce »

One thing I want to add to my post previous is this.

The atmosphere in illarion could be described as being 'free'. And ~that~ is in no way a bad thing. Meaning that the players have alot of opportunity to add to things and shape the way that the island of Gobaith operates, which in my opinion is awesome, and makes illarion unique. Problem is, the players arent using this freedom to its full potential. There would be nothing worse if because of this 'chaos' nature that occurs, that the game became more cramped with a nanny culture of gm's having to check up on every little thing that ever happens anywhere, and controled the governments ig blah blah, god forbid turn into runescape or something... Actually some of that sounds kind of familiar, but you know what I mean.
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Mr. Cromwell
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Post by Mr. Cromwell »

One thing that might create the impression of stagnation to especially someone who is not playing the game, is the fact that the guild-scene is practically dead. The active 'guilds' are few and far between, and even the towns suffer from (varying degrees) of inactivity.

The reason why there are not many active guilds in the game relates to the overmoderation of the guild board. Seriously guys, I can't see any gain in the effort to ensure that a guild has four different players in it. Not every guild has to be a settlement or knighthood or some other mass-organization. From personal experience, I know that some guilds can work the best and most efficiently when there are just two or three active members, and some guilds can be completely inactive despite having supposedly 30 members, all from different players.

So, what 'I' think should be done is: The guild board regulations are relaxed so that forthwith a guild is "Any group or organization of single characters, with one character from two different players required for a guild topic". There amount of active player merchants is annoyingly low for instance, and this sort of regulation easing might actually help some merchant guilds or similar groups to be formed.

Even if the new guilds don't become active and fail.. so what? The potential return in terms of more guild activity and activity in general are greater than the rather miniscule annoyance-risk.
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