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Ropes.

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:01 am
by LifeWonder
Yeah, no.

They're way, way, way too overpowered. A blatantly clear example of powergaming really.

Anyone can walk up to anyone and tie them. Apparently people aren't even taking the time to roleplay knocking the other person off or anything.

Also, what's with losing whatever you're carrying? At least make it fall in our bag or something, not the ground.

Also, it's a KILLER weapon against mage. Nothing a mage can do will stop anyone. Spells don't interrupt the cast and unweilding your wand and ctrl + clicking would take much more time.. the other person would be done tying you up.

It's really bad. :/ I like the whole idea but don't make it SO damn easy to tie someone up.

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:26 am
by Llama
Hmm, now we have a way of nicking things from afk-ed characters ;)

I don't think its a good idea either, just saying. Give 'special ropes' to those who need it. Not everyone.

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:00 am
by Avalyon el'Hattarr
The rope has a "cast time" like a potion. If you move or attack the "caster" when he is tieing you up, the action will fail. Seems fair to me, i dont see anything overpowered here.

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:26 am
by Mesha
Remember the first rule: play cooperatively! This is mandatory for this feature to be fun for all.
Taken directly from the wiki. I hope you know this means that as always, you have to RP. :)

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:59 am
by pharse
There was actually really something that didn't work correctly which made tying quite easy. But I fixed that.

However, Mesha is right.

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:26 pm
by Retlak
Lifewonder is such a noob.

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:36 pm
by Celtag
If Illarion is meant to be a proper serious RP game, then why do we actually need a rope tool? Everyone on the game can roleplay being tied up and will give some characters a chance to break free, I don't see its very good that a character with say 18 strength can be tied up by a female crafter halfling for example.

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:38 pm
by Pellandria
Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:The rope has a "cast time" like a potion. If you move or attack the "caster" when he is tieing you up, the action will fail. Seems fair to me, i dont see anything overpowered here.
You should have tried that before yxou talk about it, walking away does ~not~ stop the tyieng up, maybe its fixed by now, only attack does, but no casting e.g. Fireballs or even area spells did interrupt the tiing up.

Means any warrior could just run up to a mage and tie him up, the time it takes to remove the wand and to beat the warior with the fists would have taken to long, obviously beause the mouse moves so damm slow.

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:43 pm
by pharse
why can't you hit your enemy with your wand? (okay, technically restricted, got it)
Anyway, I fixed exactly what you described.

Measures against being captured:
- Interrupt the enemy (like interrupting when drinking a potion)
- change your position

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:56 pm
by Avalyon el'Hattarr
Celtag wrote:If Illarion is meant to be a proper serious RP game, then why do we actually need a rope tool? Everyone on the game can roleplay being tied up and will give some characters a chance to break free, I don't see its very good that a character with say 18 strength can be tied up by a female crafter halfling for example.
Why do you need weapons to fight, when you can just roleplay fighting? why do you need tools to craft, when you can just roleplay crafting? Why do you need scripts and graphics all toghether? Let's just open a chat channel and roleplay there! :roll:

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:02 pm
by Llama
Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:Why do you need weapons to fight, when you can just roleplay fighting? why do you need tools to craft, when you can just roleplay crafting? Why do you need scripts and graphics all toghether? Let's just open a chat channel and roleplay there! :roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Fallacy ;)

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:02 pm
by Celtag
Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:
Celtag wrote:If Illarion is meant to be a proper serious RP game, then why do we actually need a rope tool? Everyone on the game can roleplay being tied up and will give some characters a chance to break free, I don't see its very good that a character with say 18 strength can be tied up by a female crafter halfling for example.
Why do you need weapons to fight, when you can just roleplay fighting? why do you need tools to craft, when you can just roleplay crafting? Why do you need scripts and graphics all toghether? Let's just open a chat channel and roleplay there! :roll:
Funny guy

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:22 pm
by pharse
Celtag wrote:If Illarion is meant to be a proper serious RP game, then why do we actually need a rope tool? Everyone on the game can roleplay being tied up and will give some characters a chance to break free, I don't see its very good that a character with say 18 strength can be tied up by a female crafter halfling for example.
Not all players, rather the majority, are not as mature as Illarion deserves it. We have to face reality.

This system is meant to be an engine wise "hint" how to roleplay some situations. It seems to be incredible hard for some players to admit that they are captured. So they try to break free out of some strange roleplay reason.

This is prevented by this system. Once they're captured, they have to play along.

Nothing changes for those "serious roleplayers" as you describe it. They don't need any rope or handcuffs to be captured and jailed.


Oh: This is the last time I justify any new feature. Just try it instead of moaning.

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:31 pm
by Nitram
Celtag wrote:
Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:
Celtag wrote:If Illarion is meant to be a proper serious RP game, then why do we actually need a rope tool? Everyone on the game can roleplay being tied up and will give some characters a chance to break free, I don't see its very good that a character with say 18 strength can be tied up by a female crafter halfling for example.
Why do you need weapons to fight, when you can just roleplay fighting? why do you need tools to craft, when you can just roleplay crafting? Why do you need scripts and graphics all toghether? Let's just open a chat channel and roleplay there! :roll:
Funny guy
A funny guy indeed. But he is absolutly right in this case. If you want a plain hardcore roleplaying game you should look for some PnP like chat room. There you find plain real roleplay.

Illarion is more like a mix of engine and roleplay. We have the engine to support our roleplay. In this case the ropes, to have the engine checking if a action you want to do is successfully or not. Thats fair in the way. In Illarion you can't play a uber strong fighter without the engine and so the needed skills. In a plain roleplaying game without engine you can, since there are no skills.

Keep that in mind.

Nitram

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:28 pm
by Celtag
pharse wrote: Not all players, rather the majority, are not as mature as Illarion deserves it. We have to face reality.

This system is meant to be an engine wise "hint" how to roleplay some situations. It seems to be incredible hard for some players to admit that they are captured. So they try to break free out of some strange roleplay reason.

This is prevented by this system. Once they're captured, they have to play along.

Nothing changes for those "serious roleplayers" as you describe it. They don't need any rope or handcuffs to be captured and jailed.


Oh: This is the last time I justify any new feature. Just try it instead of moaning.
Fair point.
Oh I wasn't moaning at all, I was asking a question. Last time I played Illarion a few years ago it was a lot stricter so this confused me a little

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:41 pm
by LifeWonder
Pharse, casting spell on someone also doesn't interrupt it..

Also the casting time is way too short in my opinion, lots of people don't type/can't react fast enough..

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:58 pm
by pharse
LifeWonder wrote:Pharse, casting spell on someone also doesn't interrupt it..
I don't care. It uses the same command like the potion scripts. I don't see any need of adding there some extraordinary thingy. Moving ONE tile isn't an impossible thing to do, even for mages. I've seen mages teleporting over short distances just because they can. Well, now this really has a good use.
If you can still convince me that it's really necessary, I will implement the interruption by spell casting.
Also the casting time is way too short in my opinion, lots of people don't type/can't react fast enough..
5 seconds is long enough. (Any shorter casting time: well, cought in a bad moment. Tough luck.)
Just move away and THEN start typing.

Abusive behaviour can be reported to GMs.

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:48 pm
by Taliss Kazzxs
Thanks pharse this is a very nice addition to the game, anyone not appreciating your work can go suck a dwarf. :P

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:05 pm
by Retlak
Karl is such a n00b.

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:33 pm
by LifeWonder
pharse wrote:
LifeWonder wrote:Pharse, casting spell on someone also doesn't interrupt it..
I don't care. It uses the same command like the potion scripts. I don't see any need of adding there some extraordinary thingy. Moving ONE tile isn't an impossible thing to do, even for mages. I've seen mages teleporting over short distances just because they can. Well, now this really has a good use.
If you can still convince me that it's really necessary, I will implement the interruption by spell casting.
Also the casting time is way too short in my opinion, lots of people don't type/can't react fast enough..
5 seconds is long enough. (Any shorter casting time: well, cought in a bad moment. Tough luck.)
Just move away and THEN start typing.

Abusive behaviour can be reported to GMs.
I'm not saying it's a bad feature, it's pretty nice, you just need to fix some things in it..

The same way as someone attacking his abductor/whoever is tying him up, well spells are an attack too.. so I don't see why it wouldn't work..

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:47 am
by Avalyon el'Hattarr
Because it's easier to walk 1 tile than casting a spell, lol. Making the spells to intrerupt the rope "casting" is extra work for nothing .

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:55 am
by LifeWonder
But if you're surrounded, or there's something blocking your way, then you're fawked?

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:04 am
by Avalyon el'Hattarr
Lol, show me a mage that would let himself be surrounded :D

anyway, i've tested the rope, it's a nice feature.. kinda easy to escape if you'd ask me, but meh.. it's cool, lol.

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:13 am
by LifeWonder
I know it's cool, I'm not doubting its coolness or utility.. I'm just saying that if the person tying someone up gets hit, they should be interrupted is all.

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:53 am
by Llama
LifeWonder wrote:I know it's cool, I'm not doubting its coolness or utility..
Save the woman from being molested by lizards!

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:58 am
by LifeWonder
Hadrian_Abela wrote:
LifeWonder wrote:I know it's cool, I'm not doubting its coolness or utility..
Save the woman from being molested by lizards!
CAPTAIN BLAKE TO THE RESCUE!

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:30 am
by AlexRose
LifeWonder wrote:But if you're surrounded, or there's something blocking your way, then you're fawked?
Well don't get surrounded.

Or.. JUS TAUR KEL. It doesn't take 5 seconds. I think if a mage is surrounded and then has the great idea of blasting the person with a rope it'll just mean he gets pked instead.

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:08 pm
by Saigwin
Ok , as I'm sure Retlak will point out in his infinite wisdom, I'm a newb, but doesn't casting take a certain amount of concentration. I doubt a person being tied up is not going to be able to concentrate enough to cast a spell. especially the stuck up gods gift to the world(How dare you think you can tie me up) mages in Illarion. As for being surrounded, would it not make sense that those other people would be helping the tier.

Last but not least, Did I understand correctly...If you are tied up you lose all your things? If so, why...I'm sure tieing someone up doesn't include turning them upside down and shaking them. Maybe if the tier had access to the victims bags and pockets it would make sense for them to transfer things to the ground or his own pockets.

My two copper,
Saigwin

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:19 pm
by pharse
Wiki wrote:If you carry items in the hand slots when being tied up, then the items are dropped on the floor and the slots will be occupied.
http://illarion.org/community/wiki/index.php/Tying

Reading is said to be good for information gathering.

Image

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:12 pm
by Kaila Galathil Travinus
I doubt a person being tied up is not going to be able to concentrate enough to cast a spell. especially the stuck up gods gift to the world(How dare you think you can tie me up) mages in Illarion.
IMO it is best not to generalize about a group of players, or if have a specific problem address it in a PM. *shrugs*


Back to the subject, like Lifewonder I am concerned about those (me) with slower reflexes as far as casting since my char can't seem to cast fast enough to fight anymore being stopped too often when hit (and I wish now she had more agility so could at least run) , however I am assuming time will tell and possibly more testing of the ropes should be done before any suggestions. In the mean time it sounds just from reading the threads, that it is even more important for a mage not to get close to another char :wink:


My main concern when reading the wiki is
If you carry items in the hand slots when being tied up, then the items are dropped on the floor and the slots will be occupied.
This IMO mainly can harm a mage. Having one of my chars tied up I don't remember the loss of items in the hand...however most fighters that loose a weapon can usually get another similar eventually....yet for a mage to loose a wand is a lot worse..and most mages carry their wands.

I would prefer NOT to loose items in the hand... or better yet, if you want the hands free... allow the items to be placed in the bag or even a depot if can be programmed that way.

Another option is a message to the char "you are now tied and can't use any item in your hand until the rope loosens" and let everyone RP this placing valuable items in their bag.... after all the game it not totally engine based but should be RP'd also. Just my 2 cents.