Neuer Spieler / New Players

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

Moderators: Gamemasters, Community Managers

Developer
Posts: 7638
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:51 am

Post by Nitram » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:32 pm

Neuer Spieler / New Players

Normalerweise würde ich es innerhalb der Community eines Rollenspiels nicht als nötig erachten sowas zu schreiben. Aber hier in Illarion ist es wohl nötig.

Vor wenigen Minuten habe ich über 2000 E-Mail versendet an Spieler die wohl einem Fehler in dem Teil der Homepage der die E-Mail versendet zum Opfer fielen.
Es wurden 1138 deutsche und 1104 englische Accounts angeschrieben.

Selbst wenn sich nur ein kleiner Teil der angeschriebenen Illarion nocheinmal ansieht, ist das ein nicht zuverachtender Zuwachs an neuen Spielern und das Team von Illarion, sowie jeder Spieler dem etwas daran liegt das Illarion noch eine Weile bestand hat, wird sicher zustimmen das wir es uns kaum leisten können diese neuen Spieler uns entgehen zu lassen.

Ich bitte daher jedes Mitglied der Community von Illarion, jetzt und in Zukunft den neuen Spielern die in Illarion einsteigen in einer Form willkommen zu heisen das sie merken hier willkommen zu sein unabhängig ihrer Fähigkeit Rollenspiel zu betreiben. Die neue Spieler die noch keine überragenden Rollenspieler sein sollten von allen, etwas an die Hand genommen werden damit sie sehen und lernen wie Rollenspiel gemacht wird. Vom Team von Illarion und von den Spielern.

Nitram

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Usually I would expect it as unneeded to write something like this in a community of a roleplaying game. But I guess its needed in Illarion.

Some minutes ago I send over 2000 e-mails to accounts who suffered a homepage bug that sends the e-mails.
1138 german and 1104 english accounts got a mail.

Even if just a small part of those who got a mail have another look at Illarion, it would be a increase of new players that would help Illarion alot. And the team and every player who cares that Illarion stays alive further will agree that we hardly can let all this new players go away again.

For this reason I ask every member of the community of Illarion, now and in future to show the new players that join the game that they are welcome here, no matter of their ability to roleplay. And those players who are no perfect roleplayers yet, can be helped by the team and by the players how good roleplay is done, so they can improve.

Nitram

Posts: 6645
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 2:08 pm
Location: Here, there and everywhere

Post by Arien Edhel » Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:56 pm

I already activated the seer-team to do our best.

Posts: 1799
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:44 pm
Location: Yes.

Post by abcfantasy » Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:11 pm

I feel the post has something missing. I'm sure I'm not the only one that didn't understand the part about the emails and the homepage bug.

It's like the post is not mentioning what the problem is. Is it that we are scaring away new players? Not helping them? Ignoring them?

Thanks

Developer
Posts: 7638
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:51 am

Post by Nitram » Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:56 pm

abcfantasy (Übersetzung) wrote:Ich habe das Gefühl an dem Post fehlt etwas. Ich bin nicht sicher ob ich der einzige bin der den Teil mit den E-Mails und dem Homepagebug nicht verstanden hat.

Es ist als ob der Post nicht sagt was das Problem ist. Ist es das wir Spieler verjagen? Ihne nicht helfen? Sie ignorieren?

Danke
Das Problem WAR das die Homepage einen Fehler hatte der bewirkte das über 2000 Accounts keine Aktivierungs E-Mail bekommen haben.

Der Grund für dieses Topic ist das eine erhebliche Anzahl Spieler im Spiel mehrfach gezeigt hat das sie jegliche neue Spieler die kein perfektes Rollenspiel zeigen nicht in Illarion wollen. Eine Einstellung die in keinster Weise durch das Team von Illarion gebilligt wird.

---------------------
abcfantasy wrote:I feel the post has something missing. I'm sure I'm not the only one that didn't understand the part about the emails and the homepage bug.

It's like the post is not mentioning what the problem is. Is it that we are scaring away new players? Not helping them? Ignoring them?

Thanks
The problem WAS the the homepage had a bug caused that the account activation mails of more then 2000 accounts were not send.

The reason for the post IS that a descent amount of players showed multiple time ingame that they highly dislike any new player who does not RP perfectly. An attitude that is not supported by the staff of Illarion at all.

Nitram
Last edited by Nitram on Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:14 am

Post by Juliana D'cheyne » Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:00 pm

I don't suppose there can be scripted a global announcement of a new player at "wherever" for those willing to help?

Posts: 1799
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:44 pm
Location: Yes.

Post by abcfantasy » Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:07 pm

Okay thanks, that clarified it.

Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:17 pm

Post by Zeshyrr » Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:13 am

One reason that the number of players that play Illarion has not changed significantly from 6 years ago may not only be because not enough new players come to the game. It is likely that the player population stays at the same level because an old player leaves for every new player that joins. The community needs to take care of new players obviously, but attention on keeping existing players, especially old players, should not be forgotten.

I say especially old players because from experience they are the most likely to leave the game. The neither new nor old players tend to be caught up in raising skills and playing around with the mechanics of the game, but old players have done all that before and more often than not have no interest in playing at that level any longer. If opportunities are not provided for gaming contribution at another level then you end up with the old player drain that has been happening all along. I observed the situation firsthand years ago when I left as an old player, and upon my return I have witnessed that the situation has not changed.

Developer
Posts: 7638
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:51 am

Post by Nitram » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:20 am

We have 20-40 new accounts per day.

And rarely more then 10 players leaving per day.

So we are basically loosing 10-30 players per day who never get active.

Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:17 pm

Post by Zeshyrr » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:39 pm

It is not appropriate to compare an old roleplayer to some internet browser that just made a new account. Old players are definitely going to be roleplayers because the main thing that this game Illarion offers is roleplaying. There are many commercial games out there that offer much more in the way of graphics, NPC quests, and technical features. Old players have stayed despite the game's shortcomings in other areas compared to commercial games because they value roleplaying more than they value all the other features of commercial games combined. The internet browser that made an account and then never got active probably decided the game is not for him or her after browsing through the website and forum.

That said, I have always made a point of approaching newcomers to the game and trying to "convert" them into roleplayers. I do not mind explaining how to use technical functions in the game either, but I have tried to harmonize that with roleplaying.

Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:56 pm

Post by annika » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:01 pm

Ich stimme Zeshyrr zu. Rollenspiel ist etwas, das sehr viele gar nicht kennen, die auf der Suche nach einem Zeitvertreib sind.
Wenn man dann noch den Altersdurchschnitt einrechnet, der nicht sehr hoch liegt, ergibt sich als Fazit, dass der Spieler sich nicht mit Illa anfreunden kann.

Was hier gewollt ist: am Anfang eine Aktionszeit von max. 10 Min. und dann eine Pause von 2 Stunden für Rollenspiel, stößt die meisten ab, da sie oft nichts mit dem Begriff "Rollenspiel" anfangen können.
Es ist kein lockerer Zeitvertreib, sondern etwas, das auch sehr fordert.

RP heißt im allgemeinen Verständnis (einfach wenn man mal im Google nach Online-RP-Browsergames sucht) nur, sich einen Char zu erstellen und dann so lange Aktionen und Questa frei zu haben, wie man Lust hat. Und der Begriff "Rollenspiel" geht bei sehr vielen in genau diese Richtung, wie ich in diversen Gesprächen herausgehört habe.

Das ist nach meiner Meinung der Grund, warum sich so viele, die einen Acc. anlegen, gar nicht erst mit dem Thema beschäftigen. Sie sehen, dass sie fast nichts tun können und haben keine Lust, tiefer einzusteigen und die Hintergründe zu sehen.

Dazu kommt dann auf der anderen Seite, dass ältere Spieler oftmals ungehalten reagieren, wenn ein neuer Spieler sich verhält wie in einem offenen Chat.

Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:38 pm

Post by Pranck » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:49 pm

Was spricht gegen neue Spieler ?
Seit doch mal froh das neue Luft hinein kommt, immer dasselbe birgt nur langeweile.
Ich sag' mir immer:"Jeder hat mal angefangen und jeder sollte die Chance haben es zu lernen."

Wenn man von vornerein sagt, das der und der Spieler schlechtes RP betreibt und nicht sehr viel erfahrung hat und diesen gleich abstempelt, muss wohl ein Mensch sein, der in der heutigen Gesellschaft schwierigkeiten haben kann.


Rollenspiel ist etwas, das sehr viele gar nicht kennen
Deshalb versucht man es ja bekannter zu machen.

die auf der Suche nach einem Zeitvertreib sind.
Ohja, Rollenspiel ist das Leben, entschuldige, hab' ich wohl vergessen. :wink:

Wenn man dann noch den Altersdurchschnitt einrechnet, der nicht sehr hoch liegt, ergibt sich als Fazit, dass der Spieler sich nicht mit Illa anfreunden kann.
...Ich weiß nicht was das Alter mit Interessen zu tun hat, ein 50 Jähriger kann die selben interessen wie ein 20 Jähriger haben oder ein 18 Jähriger die selben Interessen wie ein 38 Jähriger.
Und so wie ich das sehe, liegt der Altersdurchschnitt in den meisten Rollenspielen zwischen 20-40 Jahren, ich kann mich ja irren, bin ja nicht Jesus.
da sie oft nichts mit dem Begriff "Rollenspiel" anfangen können.
...ja, was soll man sagen...vieleicht sollte man erklären was es ist.

Es ist kein lockerer Zeitvertreib, sondern etwas, das auch sehr fordert.
Stimmt. Doch sobald es zur Arbeit wird und kein Spaß mehr bringt, aber man immernoch weiterspielt sollte man sich fragen ob man in seinem echtem Leben etwas geleistet hat.
RP heißt im allgemeinen Verständnis (einfach wenn man mal im Google nach Online-RP-Browsergames sucht) nur, sich einen Char zu erstellen und dann so lange Aktionen und Questa frei zu haben, wie man Lust hat. Und der Begriff "Rollenspiel" geht bei sehr vielen in genau diese Richtung, wie ich in diversen Gesprächen herausgehört habe.
Recht hast'e.
Dazu kommt dann auf der anderen Seite, dass ältere Spieler oftmals ungehalten reagieren, wenn ein neuer Spieler sich verhält wie in einem offenen Chat.
Ältere Spieler waren auch einmal neue Spieler und man kommt nicht allwissend auf die Welt.
Wenn man anderen nicht ermöglicht erfahrener zu werden ist man ganz schön egoistisch.

Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:14 am

Post by Juliana D'cheyne » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:33 am

When I first joined Illa, I didn't know what RP was, I only knew that you could play the game without the endless hack and slash. Now, with newbie island, you join and immediately go to a "skills" learning center...there is usually I assume no one to RP with there. I am not sure I would have enjoyed the game as much without first finding out what RP was and seeing it done.

Just a thought, would it help to allow a little time in game first to allow the new player to get used to and possibly enjoy RP before going to the skills "lab"? Leave them a choice for a few days asking if they want to "learn more about how to do skills on Illa" when they sign in?

As far as older players, I agree would be nice to encourage them to stay..possibly a separate forum for those here over a year but ONLY if remain active? *shrugs*

Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:56 pm

Post by annika » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:23 am

Ich wollte gar nichts gegen das System auf Illa sagen, sondern rein sachlich aufzeigen, was mir viele potentielle "neue Spieler" entgegengehalten haben, als ich mal vorsichtig das Thema Rollenspiel erwähnt habe.

Um nochmal deutlich zu werden: Sehr viele Spieler, die auf der Suche nach einem Zeitvertreib sind, WOLLEN gar nicht großartig nachdenken, sondern wirklich nur Spaß haben. Und den verbinden sie nicht mit Rollenspiel im Sinne vom Spielen einer Persönlichkeit, sondern damit, Aktionen geboten zu können und diese uneingeschränkt nutzen zu können.

Ich sage NICHT, dass dies auf alle zutrifft. Aber der Altersdurchschnitt von potentiellen neuen Spielern liegt nun mal zwischen 13 und 17 Jahren. Mit voller Absicht hatte ich in meinem ersten Beitrag keine Zahlen gebracht.
In dieser Altersgruppe gibt es sicher welche, die auch sehr sehr schönes RP machen. Nur leider ist es nicht der Großteil.
Aber um eben diesen geht es ja, wenn man neue Spieler gewinnen möchte.

Ich hoffe, das war sachlich genug, damit es niemand persönlich nimmt. Ich möchte hier lediglich eine Zusammenfassung aus Äußerungen beitragen, die mir in Laufe von einigen Jahren zugetragen wurden, sonst nichts.

Developer
Posts: 7638
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:51 am

Post by Nitram » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:26 am

Ich sehe den Grund für diese Diskussion hier nicht. Illarion braucht neue Spieler, das ist eine Tatsache die jeder Diskussion erhaben ist. Und neue Spieler können halt nicht alle perfekt Rollenspielen. Darum ist es notwendig das man gerade den neuen Spielern die noch nichts vom Rollenspiel wissen, zeigt was das ist.

Natürlich ist mir klar das ein Teil der "neuen Spieler" sowas wie WoW erwartet und auch spielen will und gar kein Interesse an dem hat was wir als Rollenspiel bezeichnen. Die Spieler gehen dann halt wieder, das ist auch in Ordnung so. Doch nicht jeder neue Spieler der nicht rollenspielen kann ist auch gleich so ein Spieler.

Aber trotzdem kann Illarion es sich nicht leisten die Spieler die Rollenspiel nach unseren Maßstäben lernen wollen zu verlieren. Aber genau das tun wir wenn kein alter Spieler den Neuen zeigen will was Newbie Island niemals lehren kann. Rollenspiel. Und das mit etwas Geduld, vor allem mit denen die noch nichts vom Rollenspiel wissen.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I fail to see the reason for this diskussion. Illarion needs new players, thats a fact that is beyond every discussion. And new roleplayers can't always roleplay perfectly. Thats the reason its needed to show new players who know nothing about roleplay, what this is.

Surely its clear that a part of the "new players" expects something like WoW and wants to play something like this and is not interested in learning roleplaying how we define it. Those players leave again thats fine. But not every new player who can't roleplay is just a players.

How ever Illarion can't afford to loose players who want to learn roleplay how we define it. But we do exactly this if no older players shows the new ones what newbie island can't ever teach. Roleplay. And this with some patience exspecially for those who know nothing about roleplay.

Posts: 760
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:26 pm
Illarion e.V.: Support Member
Location: In a machine..called.. body.

Post by Triton » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:41 am

Man sollte mit einem "neuen"- Spieler, umgehen wie mit jedem Anderen auch. Durch eine Unterhaltung die nur 5 min. dauert und in der er bemerkt, das er mit dem Char und nicht dem Spieler spricht, ist schon viel gewonnen.
Dann noch ein paar Emotes dazu und der Neuankömmling hat das wesentliche verstanden.

Michel Angelo Amerighi da Caravaggio hat einmal gesagt:

"Mit all der Mühe, mit der wir manche unserer Fehler verbergen,
könnten wir sie uns leicht abgewöhnen."

Vieleicht müssten viele von uns ja an sich und ihren RP-Künsten
arbeiten und nicht einen Neuen Spieler für seine Unwissenheit strafen
lehren.

Developer
Posts: 7638
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:51 am

Post by Nitram » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:46 am

Triton wrote:Man sollte mit einem "neuen"- Spieler, umgehen wie mit jedem Anderen auch.
Nein sollte man nicht. Das funktioniert mit einem neuen Spieler der weis was Rollenspiel ist und wie das alles klappt. Bei jemandem der noch nie irgendein Rollenspiel gespielt hat, funktioniert das nicht.

Posts: 760
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:26 pm
Illarion e.V.: Support Member
Location: In a machine..called.. body.

Post by Triton » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:58 am

Mit "umgehen wie mit jedem Anderen auch",
ist wohl etwas drastisch gesprochen.
Natürlich muss man sich auch bei einem völligen
Rollenspielneuling die Zeit nehmen um das
Grundsätzliche beizubringen. Wenn es aber dann
soweit geht das sich nicht einmal die Anleitung
durchgelesen wird und alles intern mit OOC
geklärt werden muss, dann ist es eine grosse
Überwindung.

Auch völlige Neulinge können sich durch einige Stunden
aufmerksames lesen, auf einen geeigneten Stand bringen.

Sicher, nicht jeder, also kaum einer, die wenigsten, tun das
weil es einfach zu viel Zeit kostet, nur wenn man sehen will
worum es im Spiel geht.

Was ich damit sagen wollte:
Wenn es von nöten ist helfen und ansonsten mit ihnen sprechen
als wären sie auch Bewohner der Insel, dass hat immer sehr gut
geklappt, auch Gestern erst. Wenn jemand gar nicht mehr aufhört
zu Chaten und Dinge schreibt wie "Alda wie gehtn des und des?"
dann muss man sich eben mal eine viertel Stunde Zeit nehmen
und es so gut es geht erklären. Wenn das dann nicht aufgenommen
wird und der Spieler die Insel wieder verlässt, dann kann
man nichts dagegen machen. Einen Versuch war es ja wert.

Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:52 pm
Location: In der Natur

Post by karal » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:10 am

Hm.., ich selbst bin ja noch nicht so lange hier in der Gemeinde dabei, aber ich kann nicht sagen das man hier schlecht aufgenommen wird, oder nicht an die Hand genommen wird wenn man RP nicht so gut kennt.

Gut ich hatte den Vorteil das ich schon lange Live Rollenspiel betreibe und somit Vorkenntnisse hatte, war eigentlich immer nur überfordert wenn in englisch gespielt wurde, naja und ich tippe mit Zwei Fingern, dauert also manchmal lange bis ich geantwortet habe. Das liegt daran weils zur meiner Schulzeit noch nicht weit her war mit englisch lernen, ja ich gehöre zu denen die Pranck erwähnte und mit fast 50 die gleichen Interessen hat wie ein 20 jähriger.

Da gibt es aber hier eine Menge netter Spieler die mich immer wieder dazu ermutigen auch in der Sprache mitzuspielen und keine blöden Bemerkungen machen wenn ich was nicht verstehe oder falsch schreibe, besonderen Dank an Cassandria die mir immer wieder in den hintern Tritt.
Und leider nur ein paar wenige die versuchen dann in deutsch weiter zu helfen, danke Leva für Deine Bemühungen in den ersten Tagen mich hier zu halten, es waren noch ein paar wenige mehr, habe aber die Namen nicht behalten.

Was mir aufgefallen ist, ist das vielleicht ein kurzes, wirklich kurzes, geschriebenes Intro fehlt, welches auf Gegenden, Götter, Geschichte hinweißt um einen Kurzeinstieg zu bekommen. Auch die Beschreibung der Steuermöglich sollten mal wieder überarbeitet werden, vieles habe ich erst durch nachfragen herraus gefunden.

Wenn ich spielen möchte und was neues Suche, dann will ich nicht vor dem ersten Spiel eine 100 seitige Spielbeschreibung lesen, dann will ich kurz und knapp informiert werden und dann testen.
Gefällt mir das Spiel, bleibt mir meist danach kaum noch Zeit alles zu lesen, weil das Spiel halt fesselt.

Danke Karal

Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:52 pm
Location: In der Natur

Post by karal » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:28 am

Ach ja, was ich wirklich doof finde ist, das im Forums RPG Bereich nicht immer zweisprachig geschrieben wird, gerade in den Gebieten die zweisprachig bespielt werden. Oder eben wirklich wenn ein RPG in englisch oder deutsch begonnen wird, dann auch nur in der Sprache weitergeführt wird.
Es ist irre ermüdend wenn man sich durch den mal englisch mal deutsch Berg durchwurschtelt.

Developer
Posts: 7638
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:51 am

Post by Nitram » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:35 am

Wie soll jemand der nicht englisch oder nicht deutsch kann in dieser Sprache etwas schreiben? Geht nicht. Warum schreibst du hier nur deutsch und nicht auch alles fein in englisch mit?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How should one who does not know english or german write something in this language? Does not work. And why do you write your things here just in german and not in english too?

Developer
Posts: 12219
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm
Location: Sir Postalot

Post by Estralis Seborian » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:51 am

Ich sags mal mit Nitrams Worten:
Nitram wrote:Ich sehe den Grund für diese Diskussion hier nicht. Illarion braucht neue Spieler, das ist eine Tatsache die jeder Diskussion erhaben ist.
Der Grund ist hier einzusehen:

Image

In den letzten drei Monaten haben wir netto keinen einzigen Spieler dazugewonnen. Illarion stagniert im besten Falle auf niedrigem Niveau. Es gibt tausend Gründe, warum einem Illarion nicht gefallen kann - aber jeder von uns kann etwas dafür tun, dass sich neue Spieler willkommen fühlen.

In den Jahren, die ich mich mit Illarion bisher beschäftigt habe, habe ich immerwieder festgestellt, dass diejenigen, die Glück hatten und an die richtigen Leute im Spiel geraten sind, sich zu wertvollen Mitgliedern der Gemeinschaft entwickelt haben. Gebt neuen Spielern Zeit und helft ihnen in jeder Hinsicht, sei es mit der Bedienung oder gebt ihnen kleine Aufgaben. Versteckt eure Charaktere nicht an abgelegenen Orten, um ungestört zu bleiben, gerade aus Störungen können sich interessante, neue Situationen entwickeln.

Illarion hat - nach wie vor - ein großes Potential, sei es auch technisch nicht konkurrenzfähig. Unsere Entwickler tüfteln an vielen interessanten Dingen, aber wenn die Spielerzahlen so niedrig wie jetzt sind, mag die Motivation begrenzt sein. Illarion ist seit vielen Jahren online und hat uns allen viele schöne Stunden bereitet, versuchen wir alle unseren Beitrag zu leisten, dem Spiel ein wenig was zurückzugeben!

Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:52 pm
Location: In der Natur

Post by karal » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:55 am

Ganz einfach weil es meine Kentnisse im englischen überfordert ganze Texte zu übersetzen, kurze Sätze sind da kein Problem, nur dann fehlt nachher der Zusammenhang irgendwie.

Aber ich habe das mal durch http://de.babelfish.yahoo.com/ geschickt und das kam dabei raus:

the text was translated by http://de.babelfish.yahoo.com


I do not participate yet so for a long time here in the municipality, but I cannot say which one am badly taken up here, or not to the hand if one is not taken RP so well knows. Well I had the advantage which I for a long time Live role performance operate and thus previous knowledge had, was only overtaxed if in English was actually played, naja and I tap, last with two fingers sometimes for a long time to I had thus answered. That is because of it weils to the my school time not yet far ago was with English learns, I belong to those the Pranck mentioned and with nearly 50 the same interests have as 20 year old. There there is a quantity of nice players me in addition again and again encourages however here also in the language to play and no dumb remarks makes if I which does not understand or wrongly does not write, special thanks Cassandria me again and again in the back footstep. And unfortunately only few few try to help then in German further, thank Leva for your efforts in the first days me to hold here, it were still another few few more, have however the names not to keep. Which was noticeable to me, perhaps that is a short, really short, written Intro is missing, which on areas, Gods, to get history known around a short entrance. Also the description that should times again be revised, much I only through be inquired gentleman out found taxpossible. If I liked to play and which new search, then I want to read 100 a lateral description of play not before the first play, then I want am briefly and scarcely informed and then to test. If the play pleases me, me usually thereafter hardly still time everything remains reading, because the play binds stop



Oh, which really stupid I find am, who am not always written in two languages in forum the RPG range, straight in the areas those am in two languages taped. Or evenly really if a RPG in English or German is begun, then also only in the language is resumed. It is errs fatiguing if one by times English times German the mountain durchwurschtelt

Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:16 am

Post by fionandean » Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:29 pm

Why do players not stay? A "n00b"s perspective ...

My partner, our oldest son and I have created accounts in the last couple of days and I am not sure how much longer we will be around given what we have so far encountered ... Dean and I come from a Dungeons and Dragons background, I started playing at 13 and am now 42, have spent most of my playing time over the last 15 years as the DM for our group/s and the quality I value most highly in my players is roleplaying. I do not generally play online games because most of them seem to be full of kids who still have not moved past the monty haul, hack & slash style of play. Dean got over that before he was 20 and I never really went there. When I found Illarion I thought OMG! a game for adults - with REAL roleplaying! Not that I see roleplaying as limited to adults btw - our 17 year old son has been roleplaying for years and is very good at it - which is why we also introduced him to Illarion.
Well, we love the concept but ...
In terms of this games ability to attract - and then keep players, a few things have really stuck out for us.
For starters, it might be an idea to stop treating newbies as guilty unless they can prove innocence. ie; treating them as unworthy of being a mage, a gnome, a goblin or a fairy unless they can satisfy the powers that be of their roleplaying ability and that they view the race or ability in the accepted way. My son for instance has a fondness for the smaller demihumans, most especially gnomes. His gnome characters are frequently tricksters and tinkerers - I believe this is a common view of gnomes. Inevitably he gravitates toward thief and illusionist classes because these cover this. He requested to be a gnome thief but even though he explained that the ability to tinker with locks rather than the ability to pick a pocket is what he was after, he was turned down, being told that gnomes do not “usually make good thieves”. (Hey! I thought this was supposed to be about roleplaying? Let me know if I got it wrong but I was under the impression that maximising racial abilities, ie steering clear of having your character aspire to something they are unlikely to be good at, was contrary to good roleplaying?)
My partner picked up a mage kit - then found out he cannot be a mage unless he can convince someone that he can, in their opinion, role play well enough. (Are we seeing a pattern of distrust here?!) Ok, from a roleplaying perspective, we can appreciate that it makes sense for mage abilities to be learnt from another mage, its actually a pretty cool idea but lets be a wee bit practical too. Yes, you have 200ish accounts but! there are rarely more than 30 people on line at a time. Also, for us (and I daresay others) living in the antipodes (in our case New Zealand), we are on line at the wrong times to catch alot of people. This makes finding a mentor a little difficult.
One of the biggest problems though, is that the limitations imposed are not made clear unless you sit down and read the wiki. Finding, as Dean did that he was not going to be able to use the spells he got during character generation, was likely to be unexpected for many people and he should not have had to read a wiki to find this out. Now I don't have any real problem with the fact that one of my favorites (clerics) have no spells because this is still being worked on, but once again ... This is really basic info and ought to be made clear before or at the latest at the time of character creation. Admittedly, Byron did find out about the limits on gnomes at character creation time. They were missing. He then searched the wiki and the forums and discovered that he would be unlikely to be allowed to be a gnome because he was new. It really is made that clear.
Information really needs to be upfront and I strongly suggest someone rewords the wiki to avoid the recurring implication that new players are automatically untrustworthy. "We don't trust you with magic until we know we like how you play" is a very off-putting attitude. Incidentally, what is wrong with letting aspiring mages loose with one or two carefully chosen spells? Give and take people! And besides, it would be consistent - fighter types start with some skill don’t they? And for heavens sake, please look into the accessibility of prospective mentors!
Upon discussion, we are moving past the annoyance caused by the lack of clear information and we all agree that the lack of spells (especially if we had been known about it from the start) is not enough to put us off. However the apparently unnecessary limitations (what on earth are you afraid people are going to do with gnomes? Fairies maybe, but gnomes?!?) and the repeated implication that new players are not to be trusted does not make for a welcoming environment.
(PS, I would just like to say how much I appreciate the efforts made at translation – and apologise for not having done this myself. It was only due the length of this post that I didn’t do so.)

Posts: 2604
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2002 5:06 pm
Location: Running around

Post by Pellandria » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:09 pm

For the trickster, I guess the reason he got shot down is simple, its not possible to pick locks with our current engine, this might be the reason, pick pocketing is neither possible trougth the pure engine, but with rp.
Another reason might be that a gnome is "rare" and thus he would be watched unlike other races who simply blend in into crowds or other people, but don't take my word for it, I actually just guess how these races are given away.

To the Priest thing, currently a group is working on it, even if it tends to take some time like everything here, but the staff is aware of the missing magic systems, but they can't pull something out of a hat from one day to another.

The magic thing neither is a "old player only" thing, you simply need to have a bit of luck and play your char well enough. Now there are several reasons why magic is not given away free, first of all you basicly need to understand what magic is, before you can cast it rp wise, even if you engine wise just need the runes, but without the knowledge, you shouldn't be able to pull it off, magic does thus not come naturally, its a skill one needs to train like figthing or any craft you can do, just that you need a teacher first, who shows you how to do it.

Playing an Warlock teacher I must say that there are hords of wannabe mages, who always spurt out the same "I just want to learn and do all goody goody things and help everyone" line, like this would be something new and interresting, that creates the urge for every teacher to teach magic to one of these people. You see taking a student normally diminish your time as a teacher drasticly, you not only need to talk to this student and give runes, practic, theory and in the end make sure he behaves, no you also need to wrk out a plan to teach him througth the entire time, thus you need to understand that teachers just not pick about anyone who asks, make your char interresting and unique and there sure will be one to teach you.

Not giving out spells is easy to explain to, even the most minor spells can cause damage, if they are trained just hard enough combine that with people who powergame and you got killermages running around, who have no idea how magic even works.

The magic academy normally offers eough teachers for the ~serious~ rp chars, sadly some of our members got technical difficulties currently and can't play the game, but aside from that this might be the best way to include magic for now, lucky enough the new druid system got alot of pressure from our backs, thus finding a mentor/teacher should be easier now.

For your information, most other rpg servers I have seen so far in the internet have much more requierements to their games, I once have seen a normal text based chat with several pages of game history questions, so I guess the few questions we currently have are more than suitable and after all, whats the problem of playing a normal char first, getting a foothold on the game, one thing I can allready tell you now is, that all you planned for your char will change anyway, because Illa has the habit, as a game, to change the outcome of anything, so maybe you find another way or another char and stick with it or you get used to illa and make another main char later, so don't see it as mistrust but more as a chance to proove that you can play.

Posts: 3482
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:46 pm

Post by Keikan Hiru » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:10 pm

How magic will be acquired will very certainly be changed in future.
Probably giving away easy and basic spells right from the start, with a way to aquire some more advanced spells without the dependence on other players.
(Not saying this is final, or this turning into a magic system discussion.)

The whole mage teaching situation is indeed very unsatisfying and there are motions to change that sooner or later.

Fiona, I hope you stick around long enough to see that there is indeed trust in new players from the side of the staff, some things are just 'different' here, lore-wise and game play wise.

Otherwise, contact me if there are other things that put you off, the whole staff is constantly looking to improve the game play experience for new players.

Posts: 4790
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:18 pm
Location: Megajiggawhat?

Post by AlexRose » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:56 pm

Usually, characters who get taught magic have been around for a long while. This is because other characters have built up trust with these characters, they've been around long enough to have a good name, they can be trusted. There are hundreds of applications to the academy and someone who just came to the island is extremely unlikely to learn because:

1. The person might not even stay around long. If your teacher is EXTREMELY quick with you it theoretically takes a minimum of 14 weeks to learn every rune, so you want to make sure your student will actually be around.
2. The character could be deceiving you in several ways. He could be completely evil and launch a conquest for world domination for all you know; he only just got here.

Posts: 7685
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:02 pm
Location: The VBU is awesome

Post by Llama » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:14 pm

Just to add to the pile, with the brand new teaching system, the teacher needs to have a degree of skill to teach each particular rune, the student needs to have a degree of skill to LEARN it. So the amount of teachers who can actually TEACH everything... well you can count them on one hand.
For starters, it might be an idea to stop treating newbies as guilty unless they can prove innocence. ie; treating them as unworthy of being a mage, a gnome, a goblin or a fairy unless they can satisfy the powers that be of their roleplaying ability and that they view the race or ability in the accepted way.
Before there was a test before you could even make an account, but that got scrapped. You can have played for 5 years, you still need to write an essay to play one of those 3 special races.
My partner picked up a mage kit - then found out he cannot be a mage unless he can convince someone that he can, in their opinion, role play well enough.
You misunderstood the basis for becoming a mage. Its not about how well you roleplay, but how well you get along with potential teachers.

Before the system was set such that aspiring mages used to all pack into a classroom, and were given a general lesson and runes. There was no 'filter' of sorts so a character who believes rabbits are the guardians of the forest would still get runes (I'm not joking about this part). Ironically the moment everyone and their dog got the illusoin spells, and ended up casting them everywehre and at all occasions, it was decided that magic users needed to be limited. In fact, mages are VERY overpowered (if you saw the recentl Silverbrand/Tb war, mages literally chewed up the opposition), so we don't want everyone with runes thank you very much.
-

Also gnomes fairies and goblins are 'special races'. You can play any other race you like with just an email address, but the gm team wanted to keep those 3 special.

Posts: 1549
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:20 pm

Post by Vern Kron » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:16 pm

Also, simply applying on the board does not really do much. They have many many pages of people wanting to become mages. Doing something that makes you stick out IG, like becoming active in something will help in that. Also teachers go to those who they meet first, those who -actively- seeked them out, rather than wandering around asking everyone if they are a mage. Grammar and a thought out background also help (Not that I saw you were missing any, but it is something people sometimes feel is important.)

Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:52 pm
Illarion e.V.: Active Member

Post by Alatar » Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:24 am

Re: Why do players not stay? A "n00b"s perspective

fionandean wrote:...
That's one of most welcome feedbacks I read from a players point of view. Maybe I can invite you do some of the mentioned changes in the wiki yourself. Changes for the homepage can be addressed to Nitram or me.

Other points (like magic system changes) are already mentioned before.

Going ahead with more trust (in)to new players is a task for all - staff for designing technical things behind - but even (older) players in their behavior to newbies.

Posts: 2568
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:17 am

Post by Aegohl » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:15 pm

Fionandean,

Most everything else that you've said has been addressed (and 100% agreed) but one:

It's not that we're afraid to hand off gnomes, gobbos, and fairies. These races came late to Illarion and it was decided that they should be used as some sort of rp award. However, I agree that the implementation of that is off and probably confusing.

On one hand, I'm always looking for new ways to reward good players (most precisely because we had become more lax on rp-rules to open up to a larger community I believe there needs to be some kind of thing that GM's can hand off to players who not only roleplay but encourage roleplay and drive stories and commit to collective storytelling even when it ends in consequences for their characters), on the other hand, this isn't doing it, and meanwhile I find the app system a kind of silliness. There's no base standard of what a good app is and it differs from GM to GM and this is a similar problem we had with the account system (a player who is rejected isn't necessarily rejected because he's less of a roleplayer than the a player who is accepted, or even worse, a player who is rejected might even have a better app, as GM opinions, moods, and so on effect the mix).

Expect that in the coming days there will be some internal talk about what to do about this.

Before you go leaving us, I want to tell you the one strength Illarion has that has always kept me in the community to some degree for going on six years now. It's that we're all here part of the development of this project to varying degrees. Even as three 'noobs,' even if you leave us, in fact, you've left some footprints in the sand of Illarion that won't be washed away so quickly.

Anyhow, all very good points. I hope to hear more as you discover more about Illarion, because Illarion is a lot of things to me, but not "fixed" "perfect" or "done."

Return to “General / Allgemeines (Player Forum)”

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
Designed by ST Software.