Heavy or light?

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Post by Hawkmoon » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:31 pm

Heavy or light?

Just have to come with this proposal...

As it is now there is no way to know whether the char can move well with the armor or now. Is it possible that the char get a message every time the char put an armour on that tells the PO how the char feels about the armor put on. For example if "small warrior" with strenght 10 put on a full plate armour the message that shows up maybe will say "You have put the armor on and you feel like your movements will be slower than normally due to the weight of this armor. Don't expect to dodge with this armor on." The "normal warrior" with 14 in strength who put the same armor on maybe get the message "You have put the armor on and you feel like your movements will be slightly slower than normally due to the weight of the armor. Don't expect to dodge as well as you normally do with this armor on.". The "strong warrior" with 18 in strength might get a message like this :"You have put the armor on and you feel like your movements will not be hindered more than any other armor. You will have no problem dodging like you use to do."

As it is now one can only guess what different armors are like and there are no way to test it before battle... Would be really nice with more messages like this to be able to see how the char feels about different equipment.

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Post by Theory » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:15 pm

Definently agree, though if you have 5 strength wearing heavy steel armor I think your character should just collapse from it's weight :?

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Post by Julius » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:31 pm

This proposal only works for people who use their attributes to play their character/the engine to rp. We already have auto #mes, auto rp messages, and a look at feature that does nothing but destroy rp. Why do we need this to show PGers what armor is best suited for them?

No way.

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Post by Llama » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:34 pm

FAQ from the wiki

"2.2 How do I know the precise weapon strengths?

You don't. We try to make Illarion as "realistic" as possible. In medieval times, you simply would not hear a weapon smith say "This sword has an attack value of 20". Instead people tried out several swords and then decided which one suited them best. "
---

I would apply myself to that. Some armors LOOK heavy.

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Post by Hawkmoon » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:41 pm

Julius wrote:This proposal only works for people who use their attributes to play their character/the engine to rp. We already have auto #mes, auto rp messages, and a look at feature that does nothing but destroy rp. Why do we need this to show PGers what armor is best suited for them?

No way.
Why have attributes if not RPing the attributes? That is a part of the game after all. And it is not for PGers it is common sense! As it is now one have no clue whether the armor I wear is heavy or not. That should be abvious for the char!

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Post by Julius » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:54 pm

It should, your correct. People don't put on armor in real life and go "Holy shit dawg, this mith armr is so hevy meh dodge skil is gunna suk." In rl, warriors tested the armor. That's common sense. As Hadrian said, the GMs have a nice stance on this subject.

As for attributes, if I rped my attributes (I made Julius when I was a n00b), not only would my character not be able to read, he wouldn't be able to see either.

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Post by Hawkmoon » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:59 pm

Julius wrote:It should, your correct. People don't put on armor in real life and go "Holy shit dawg, this mith armr is so hevy meh dodge skil is gunna suk." In rl, warriors tested the armor. That's common sense. As Hadrian said, the GMs have a nice stance on this subject.

As for attributes, if I rped my attributes (I made Julius when I was a n00b), not only would my character not be able to read, he wouldn't be able to see either.
But a person who put armour on sure can feel if he can move as well as before or not.

And about RP the attributes... I was a newbie when I started this game and I did put the attrbutes according to what woul suit my RP - not what would be best skillwise... I think that is what one do when it is RP but that is me... It is in the same kind of discussion as PG thread I guess.. If one should back up RP with skills and attributes or not...

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Post by Julius » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:04 pm

Ask any gm. Believe me I've tried to change my attributes with the bogus excuse "MY ATTRIBUTES DON'T FIT MEH RP!!11". A majority of the Gms would tell you that attributes really don't matter when it comes to rp. But of course, there are two distinct groups in Illarion.

If you choose to rp your characters by engine crap, the fine, but don't implant things like this to make you rp less or your job easier.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:10 pm

Leather/chain armor definitely light.........salk/elvensteel is heavy, plate less then that. Most of the armors can be judged by looks alone.. the others can be tested. I don't think another message is needed and too many messages IMO become not fun but irritating, if not irritating, something to be ignored. I don't know ANYONE that made their first char meeting attributes great skillwise. If they did, they were very very lucky! :lol: My chars aren't RP'd by their attributes or my mage char wouldn't be able to walk. Most tend to RP by background.

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Post by Hawkmoon » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:19 pm

Achae Eanstray wrote:Leather/chain armor definitely light.........salk/elvensteel is heavy, plate less then that. Most of the armors can be judged by looks alone.. the others can be tested. I don't think another message is needed and too many messages IMO become not fun but irritating, if not irritating, something to be ignored. I don't know ANYONE that made their first char meeting attributes great skillwise. If they did, they were very very lucky! :lol: My chars aren't RP'd by their attributes or my mage char wouldn't be able to walk. Most tend to RP by background.
Well, is not the strength something that makes some armor light for some people but heavy for another?

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:43 pm

Hawkmoon wrote: Well, is not the strength something that makes some armor light for some people but heavy for another?
Possibly IF you want to RP by attributes which as I said most don't. :wink: You are discussing wanting messages to adhere to your theory of RP which IMO takes away from imagination leaving it up to game engine. I would not like my imagination limited by game engine as your proposal seems to want. A fairy, halfling, dwarf PO should decide what armor best suits them NOT by game engine but at the discretion of the PO (player operator).

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:51 am

Strength really isn't as important as you think for fighting. Sure it means you can hit harder and maybe carry heavier gear. But if you think about it, the more you do an action, the stronger you get. Plus armor is spread out across the body, you aren't wearing a 30+ pound suit of armor on your arm after all. I don't think you need to be strong persay to wear that 30 pounds worth of armor, it may help you to be strong because you are quicker in it, but as said, if you wear it enough you should technically get used to wearing it. Hey, you want to make the game realistic don't you? Why not have attributes improve as they are used and lower (slowly) as they aren't used.

If you are going to make it so only strong people can wear steel armor, then they should get stronger over time (with a temporary decrease if their strength isn't high enough to wear the armor with no problem). It would only be realistic.

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Post by Daelyn » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:15 pm

Stop being difficult people.. No matter how you put it, your arguments don't make sense. To me it seems very realistic that a char knows how well he can move in an armour. I would certainly realise very quickly if I put on something which was so heavy I can not move. If it is true as you say, and some armours simply "look heavy" then what is the problem? If you already know, then a message would not give anyone any unfair advantages, and some people might get reassured. The thing with Illarion is that it is a game, and sometimes games are not 100% logical because the programming may be flawed. By giving the players a message they can be sure that they are wearing a decent armour, just like the char would obviously be aware. There is no point in making a part of the game which shouldn't be stressful, stressful.


And Dantagon: Yes, strength is VERY important for fighting with a sword, at least technically. And whoever said that strength was limited to your arm..?

Now, how ON EARTH does getting an indication of how well an armour suits you make it any harder for you not to RP your char according to it's attributes? You would be the only one to know, and it certainly wouldn't make a difference in an RP'ed fight, now would it? Neither in a technical fight would it change anything. If you wore a shitty armour before, you still lost, but back then you didn't know it was because your armour was crap. That doesn't stop you from RP'ing youre moving smoothly in your armour?

Your arguments are paradoxes.

Achae Eanstray wrote:... of the PO (player operator).
Wow, I always thought that meant "player of" :lol:

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Post by Vern Kron » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:46 pm

Its more work, because what is heavy to you, might not be heavy to some one else, and that would have to be taken into consideration. So, for each piece of armor IG, (lets say there is 20) There has to be a marker on each of those for each strength tick. Lets say there is... 18 of those. So that means you have to prepare to code for 360 types of occurances, assuming that you can go down to 1 strength tick and up to 18. More over, we have something like this already. Its called if your character can move or not. If your character is having difficulty walking, most likely, this armor is too heavy. If not, then it probably isn't. If needed, I might be willing to write up some nifty descriptions up in the wiki, but I don't think that will really solve anything because people would say "Oh, it says -heavy-, but does that mean heavy for -me-?" Well, thats where you have to decide if your character can actually move in it technically.

Also, I can pretty much say without much issue, that elven armor is going to be lighter than dwarven. Drow may be a bit more clunky than elves. Human armor is somewhere in between. (By human armor, I mean the ones that have things like "Salkamar" or "Albarian") Along with those, there is the standard plate armor which would be somewhat self-explainitory, and chainmail which is also rather clear. There is some armor without sleeves, so your best bet for flexibilty, would be the armor without a sleeve graphic.

I do hope this cleared up why people are against this, because it is essentially more work where it could be spent doing other things, and the fact that it is rather self explainitory.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:27 am

Daelyn wrote: And Dantagon: Yes, strength is VERY important for fighting with a sword, at least technically. And whoever said that strength was limited to your arm..?
Um... Strength helps, sure. It means you can hit harder, sure... But power generation is what is important in sword fighting. Flaying your arms about because you are strong isn't going to do as much as using proper technique to generate power as you swing. Trust me buddy, I've done both in sword fighting. I'm small, I wish I had enough strength to hit hard, but because I am not I (try to) use my body to generate power behind the swings instead.

Strength = useful in sword fighting
Generating proper force/power = Important in sword fighting

And wasn't this about armor?

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Post by Nitram » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:25 pm

There are not real light and heavy armors. There are stiff and not stiff armors. Nothing else. The effect of the stiffness is not related to the attributes and that won't change since everything is balanced in the way that it does not need to be related. And changing this would require that every armor and parts of fighting system are balanced again. And thats pointless because at the end it is no difference.

And so the proposal does not really work out since there is no attribute-stiffness relation.

Nitram

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