IRA/URA TAUR LUK

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Post by Daelyn » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:01 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote: increases for each casting - so no more mages beating 5 people at the same time, you'll run out of mana soon enough - though you can nuke one.

There you go ;)
I doubt you can even nuke one, considering a mage is useless the moment he gets into close combat :? You really need to decrease the casting time or something

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Post by Hawkmoon » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:04 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Hawkmoon wrote:Is it me or don't it feels kinda strange that creatures like goblins and gnolls can be raised/summoned? Would have understood better with creatures that are all magic such as undead raised, or maybe ghosts, Golems, but Goblins and so live in societies after all and so and all the sudden they show up because of a mage?
They're 'summoned' actually, not raised. Yes its partially messed up, but I always assumed they're coming from somewhere. You know, a miniportal opened and sucked out a cow from somewhere.
Well... Undead are raised, right?

And yes, I guess it is like you say. Still think it feels kinda strange to summon creatures like that though...

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Post by Pellandria » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:36 pm

There is no "portal" rune in the speell, it would be better if you add "orl" to the whole spell, that makes it far more realistic.
I think someone alllreadywritten that down somewhere, but from what I get "summoned" creatures are not really summoned, but they are like a "shell" so you are ~creating~ that creature, this would support the idea of having to choose what you want to summon up, but I guess some staffmember has to clear up what the spell actually does, if it summons, raises or creates.

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Post by LifeWonder » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:56 pm

I roleplay summoned creatures as having no soul. D:

Undead as being raised from the ground.

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Post by Azuros » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:58 pm

LifeWonder wrote:I roleplay summoned creatures as having no soul. D:

Undead as being raised from the ground.
I do this too. I don't RP that they're summoned from elsewhere.

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Post by LifeWonder » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:21 pm

Azuros wrote:
LifeWonder wrote:I roleplay summoned creatures as having no soul. D:

Undead as being raised from the ground.
I do this too. I don't RP that they're summoned from elsewhere.
Great minds think alike. x3

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Post by Pellandria » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:50 pm

But you would need to know what a "soul" is, the soul would be simply something like a mind that can process feelings, now if we take that..and that all living creatures have all 5 elements, itmeans evensummoned creatureswould have a mind and thus a soul, no matter how crippled it is.

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Post by Djironnyma » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:53 pm

blablabla ig theory about magic and spells should be discussed ig and not on proposal board. a staffmember will say you, the rune combination make, that the engine create skeleton npc

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Post by Hawkmoon » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:56 pm

Djironnyma wrote:blablabla ig theory about magic and spells should be discussed ig and not on proposal board. a staffmember will say you, the rune combination make, that the engine create skeleton npc
Don't agree... Think this discussion is kinda important since I feel it might be strange that some of the monsters summoned don't fit that well as a creature that should be possible to summon.

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Post by Keikan Hiru » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:14 pm

They jump out of your pokeballs.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:16 pm

  Code:
world:createMonster(monsterID,posStruct,movepoints);
Rest is up to you. While making up your theories, find an explaination why monsters respawn, why trees regrow in some minutes and why your characters never have to pee.

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Post by Llama » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:18 pm

Estralis Seborian wrote:
  Code:
world:createMonster(monsterID,posStruct,movepoints);
Rest is up to you. While making up your theories, find an explaination why monsters respawn, why trees regrow in some minutes and why your characters never have to pee.
Didn't they build a toilet in Trollsbane?

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Post by Caitir Gilleasbachan » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:21 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Estralis Seborian wrote:
  Code:
world:createMonster(monsterID,posStruct,movepoints);
Rest is up to you. While making up your theories, find an explaination why monsters respawn, why trees regrow in some minutes and why your characters never have to pee.
Didn't they build a toilet in Trollsbane?
I thought it was a jail that you couldn't get out of until you knew the secret code?

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Post by LifeWonder » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:21 am

Estralis Seborian wrote:
  Code:
world:createMonster(monsterID,posStruct,movepoints);
Rest is up to you. While making up your theories, find an explaination why monsters respawn, why trees regrow in some minutes and why your characters never have to pee.
Exactly.

Characters have found that the combination of the runes "IRA TAUR LUK" create a creature. Whether it crawls out of the ground or my ass shouldn't really matter. Whether it poofs from thin air or out of whatever other place doesn't matter either.. Our characters can have theories IG.

The academy might impose some, doesn't mean all academicians will agree with them.

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Post by HolyKnight » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:25 am

A whole page of posts and not one new idea. Perhaps you should play a mage Hawkmoon then you will get a rp reason why mages and warlocks can create natural creatures. No one said anything about summoning goblins anyway because they can be considered sentient beings in my mind as compared to simple minded creatures like Ogres, spiders, and Trolls.

So until we get word from the staff I think we should discuss other options as well. The more ideas we can get the better. Here is what we got so far from reading.

-Adjustment to the numbers of LUK creatures that can be summoned.
-Taking away loot/coin drops from summoned creatures to allow more powerful creatures to be created.
-Give a call tag to each creature to specify summoning (e.g. mummy, skeleton, pig, etc...)
-DUN effect to summon multiple creatures.
-A tier for casting creatures (certain level to produce stronger creatures)
-Adding QWAN effect to LUK spells for stronger creatures

Can someone from the staff comment please?

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Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:21 am

Not going deeply into anything ig except some might consider anything summoned as constructs... I don't see any problem with summoning goblins, bandits etc.

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Post by Hawkmoon » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:35 pm

Estralis Seborian wrote:
  Code:
world:createMonster(monsterID,posStruct,movepoints);
Rest is up to you. While making up your theories, find an explaination why monsters respawn, why trees regrow in some minutes and why your characters never have to pee.
Well not the same things I must say...

Monsters respawning can easily be explained that it is their territories and they guard it, or that the evil powers raise the undead and so on... Trees regrown is like theatrical properties (hopefully it is the correct expression...) needed to make the world work ok. One tree is like any other tree pretty much after all... And about characters need of peeing... Well... Would not be that nice to go and pee all the time... My questions is something I thought was clearly different, but I guess the rest of you think otherwise and I just drop the subject. What I think is strange is how humanlike creatures - normally with the mind of their own - all the sudden is created/summoned from nowhere to help the mage.

Just felt very strange to me and I wondered if it might be that the Devs had not thought that much of that or if they had another view of it.

But I drop the subject.

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Post by LifeWonder » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:53 pm

Hawkmoon wrote:
Estralis Seborian wrote:
  Code:
world:createMonster(monsterID,posStruct,movepoints);
Rest is up to you. While making up your theories, find an explaination why monsters respawn, why trees regrow in some minutes and why your characters never have to pee.
Well not the same things I must say...

Monsters respawning can easily be explained that it is their territories and they guard it, or that the evil powers raise the undead and so on... Trees regrown is like theatrical properties (hopefully it is the correct expression...) needed to make the world work ok. One tree is like any other tree pretty much after all... And about characters need of peeing... Well... Would not be that nice to go and pee all the time... My questions is something I thought was clearly different, but I guess the rest of you think otherwise and I just drop the subject. What I think is strange is how humanlike creatures - normally with the mind of their own - all the sudden is created/summoned from nowhere to help the mage.

Just felt very strange to me and I wondered if it might be that the Devs had not thought that much of that or if they had another view of it.

But I drop the subject.
It shouldn't feel strange for you. It should feel strange for your character.

Your character sees a creature that appears there suddenly after a dark green cloud and a strident scream can be perceived.

Feel free to have your character be curious about this happens.

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Post by ogerawa » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:06 pm

Hawkmoon wrote:What I think is strange is how humanlike creatures - normally with the mind of their own - all the sudden is created/summoned from nowhere to help the mage.
it doesn't really help the mage, it's basically like any other monsters, they attack their chosen target (AI thing) or whoever is the closest. So... it can attack the mage, who summoned the creature, as well.

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Post by Hawkmoon » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:08 pm

ogerawa wrote:
Hawkmoon wrote:What I think is strange is how humanlike creatures - normally with the mind of their own - all the sudden is created/summoned from nowhere to help the mage.
it doesn't really help the mage, it's basically like any other monsters, they attack their chosen target (AI thing) or whoever is the closest. So... it can attack the mage, who summoned the creature, as well.
True, but I guess a mage only would do such thing if he/she need the creatures somehow. But sure - you are of course correct there.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:44 pm

This is something I wrote awhile ago on the subject of necromancy and the undead. Feel free to use/modify/ignore of it what you will. I'm not posting it here to debate ingame theory and how valid/correct it is so don't bother posting counter arguments. Its just for people who want to see the way one particular school has approached the subject from an ingame way.

Necromancy: The art of communicating with, summoning and animating the dead.


An Introduction to Necromancy:
Necromancy is a dark and unholy art practiced only my mages and sorcerers of black and evil intentions. It brings forth abominations of undeath that will relentlessly pursue their master’s foes until such a time that their bodies are destroyed and the magical energies that fuel them are wasted. Here follows the theory and practice of the grim and ancient ways of necromancy. When creatures are born into this world, they are created in all manner of forms and with all kinds of power. However they all share in common the essence of life which retains their eternal soul and which will continue into Cherga’s realm once their mortal vessels are destroyed. They are however a number of spirits whose journey to the underworld is by some means delayed or even halted altogether. These spirits become manifest as the undead and are the basis for all necromantic arts.


The Nature of the Undead Creatures:
Some powerful and magical undead creatures such as the lich are a result of their own creation; Skilled wizards who have used their magics to transform themselves into the undead and thereby avoid death altogether. These beings should be treated with caution as not only are their spells formidable but they retain their thought, although changed and defiled by the unholy state in which they live. Other beings are merely lost souls who by chance or misfortune have not been able to find their way to the realm of spirits and thus wander the world lamenting their fate. Mostly these ghosts are harmless, floating around in confusion and sadness. However there are some who have become violent and angry at their misfortune and travel as wraith’s attacking the living in their jealously and rage.

The majority of undead are the result of necromantic spells cast by beings of magical talent. The nature of these creatures is somewhat different as they do not retain much, if any, memory of life and so become unknowing and unthinking animations of bone and rotting flesh. Using magic it is possible to infuse the remains of the dead with a type of essence that allows for their animation. The mage’s mana is infused into the corpse and gives it life of a sort. Energy to move and attack and in rare cases cast simple spells of its own. These creatures cannot act alone however and must be commanded by the being that has summoned them. Sometimes these commands are vocal, other times telepathic and magic means are used. Most often however necromancers will merely instil a basic instinct to attack all living creatures without question. Although this is a dangerous practice as it can allow for the undead to turn on their master it requires significantly less skill and energy from the mage than commanding their creations to specific tasks. Any remains can be animated, from lowly battlefield casualties to the carcasses of great dragons. It should be noted however the powers the creature held in life will not be retained in animated undeath and only the advantages of physical superiority will be felt. A mage may of course infuse more mana into his creations in order to grant them special powers or abilities, but this will be independent of its skills in life.



How to Create Undead Beings:
In order to create undead the mage must have mastered the runes of IRA, TAUR and LUK and be skilled in the practice of Decisio. The meaning of these three runes is as follows:

IRA: This is the primary rune used for necromancy. It fulfils the portfolio of un-death and the perversion of nature. It can be used to warp the material world and bring un-natural things into existence such as icy magical fires and unholy beings that walk in the realms between life and death.

TAUR: Is the rune of creatures, entities and beings of any form. While it can be used to affect the state of the caster in such spells as teleportation its most common use is that of summoning. When used in conjunction with URA it can bring forth living creatures from lowly pigs to mighty ogres. To use this rune with IRA however is to create and animate the world of the dead and summon beings of undeath.

LUK: This is the rune of cruelty, evil and aggression. The use of this rune is reserved for those who command their creations into battle to strike down their foes. It alters the minds of creatures summoned and turns them into savage warriors who attack all mercilessly. Within the art of necromancy it can create stumbling zombies or adept skeletal fighters.

Therefore in order to create harmless and non-violent undead such as zombie and skeleton workers as well as summoning lost souls the mage would focus the energies of IRA and TAUR into his intended target.

However in order to create aggressive undead that will attack the mage’s enemies he must focus the runes of IRA, TAUR and LUK into his intended target space. This will conjure violent zombies and skeleton warriors.

Advanced Necromancy:
The means by which magical undead such as mages are created, and the ways in which one can achieve lichdom are closely guarded secrets known only to the most powerful necromancers.

As a final word, it has been rumoured that deep within the dead city of Ur-Nekropolis there dwells an ancient and powerful dragon lich. If such rumours are to be true surely this undead creature possesses magics and powers of unimaginable magnitude that could shake the very foundations of the known world.

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Post by Athian » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:51 pm

An Introduction to Necromancy:
Necromancy is a dark and unholy art practiced only my mages and sorcerers of black and evil intentions. It brings forth abominations of undeath that will relentlessly pursue their master’s foes until such a time that their bodies are destroyed and the magical energies that fuel them are wasted. Here follows the theory and practice of the grim and ancient ways of necromancy. When creatures are born into this world, they are created in all manner of forms and with all kinds of power. However they all share in common the essence of life which retains their eternal soul and which will continue into Cherga’s realm once their mortal vessels are destroyed. They are however a number of spirits whose journey to the underworld is by some means delayed or even halted altogether. These spirits become manifest as the undead and are the basis for all necromantic arts.


Quoted from God (Cherga)

Followers:
There are not many followers of Cherga. Cherga is the one who collects the dead ones, and brings them to the realms they belong to. Some people pray to her to give them forbidden knowledge and power over the undead, some (good) people to give eternal rest to the restless, others to use the undead for a purpose. Many necromancers are followers of Cheerga, but many fortune tellers too. Cherga does not care what the mortals do with the knowledge, and most of this knowledge has a high price. Followers of Cherga believe that when they die, they can choose to live on as a lich or skeleton, or serve Cheerga in helping to direct the souls of the dead to their destination places, until they themselves will be reborn to be allowed to start a new life. Most people who follow Cheerga simply want to gain immortality.
If your making a guide it might pay to read a bit more of the background information. nercomancy is not sole evil, therefore you shouldn't state as such
How to Create Undead Beings:
In order to create undead the mage must have mastered the runes of IRA, TAUR and LUK and be skilled in the practice of Decisio. The meaning of these three runes is as follows:
anyone seeing anything wrong here? Decisio are spells of movement and transportation. Pervestigatio is magic of creation. There is 0 creation other then the bare bones of the system going on here, which no ig character would know of. As far as the spell is labeled and catagorized this spell and any person usnig this spell is transporting a creature not creating one. so i wouldn't put it in a guide for ig peoples as such.

my only qualms with your guide...

also isn't this kinda off topic??

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Post by Raheem » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:36 pm

Nal wrote:This is something I wrote awhile ago on the subject of necromancy and the undead. Feel free to use/modify/ignore of it what you will. I'm not posting it here to debate ingame theory and how valid/correct it is so don't bother posting counter arguments. Its just for people who want to see the way one particular school has approached the subject from an ingame way.
Nice counter argument there, Athian. :roll:

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Post by Pellandria » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:48 pm

Athian wrote: Decisio are spells of movement and transportation.
Decisio is the school of control, not of transportation.

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Post by Athian » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:01 am

@Julius

GTFO please and thank you. even if i did counter arguement i had something at least to contribute in my thoughts. You contributed nothing so how about keeping quiet unless you have an opinion to add. Trolls unwelcome.

might just add that since there are no other area's where such posting about nercomancy exist might as well state my opinions on it so it seems less set in stone. even if it's said it's offical in any context there really is nothing else for anyone to go by.

p.s. Have you found the door yet? please let the knob hit you firmly in the a** on the way out

@Pell

I know the 'school' of things but i'm speaking more generally of what the spells are doing or not doing. most Decisio spells are moving your or another character to one place or another (teleportation, wind spells) or stopping or renewing movement (paralyze, anti paralyze). Even if we go by that basis of 'school of control.' though summoning an uncontrollable monster really wouldn't fit this catagory at all.


Thanks everyone for your one line interjections useless or otherwise.
Last edited by Athian on Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by LifeWonder » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:05 am

Do you guys know what's funny?

In the first place, I PM'd Estralis with this suggestion but he told me to post it on the forums. I then predicted that people would start flaming on that thread and he said he'd ban anyone flaming.

You guys are too predictable. I think anyone who doesn't have pertinent suggestion concerning the MAIN TOPIC of the thread needs to go away.

Thank you.

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Post by Athian » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:16 am

If it's topic stuff then i think the only thing we've come to really find it that we've got three (ura taur at least can give you some food ingredients) chaotic and somewhat useless spells.

We could add better monsters but there the case of them being to powerful or to exploitable.

most we could do in the exploitation regard would be to change the monsters summoned to not drop coins and items, not sure how much scripting that would take but someone would have to do the work

Otherwise i'm sure the DEv's are happy with the current magic system that they worked to kick most the bugs out of and make fair(more fair) for everyone using it and those not (you can actually get resistance now^^) and i wouldn't expect if these changes require alot of work to do that it would be done any time soon, as there are other mosre pressing projects on the plate.

Not sure how that works for a summary but otherwise i'm sure we've dicussed everything we could about this topic on page one to begin with.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:59 am

It may be a guide Athian, but it is an ingame guide. There was some discussion about ingame theory so I thought I would give an example of how the subject should be approached. I.E. From a character's perspective and not that of a player.

As such considering it an evil act is a subjective and ingame perspective of my character. Just because the person that wrote about Cherga does not consider necromancy evil is not to say that the character I play does not consider it as evil.

I think the problem is that people often read the background knowledge and take it as irrefutable fact. However it is much more constructive if you see it as merely a guide that should be seen from your characters perspective. Consider it an ingame piece of literature that can be correct in some area's and false in others, however it still remains something that should be debated by the scholars of Gobaith and not the players of Illarion.

I apologise if this diverts the thread off-topic, but it seems that everything that needed to be said about the matter has been. All we wait for now is some developer feedback on the idea's that HolyKnight has kindly summarised for us.

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Post by Athian » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:04 am

Nothing you posted distracted, besides we are the players and therefore the characters so bits of discussion about ig things can, will and always pop up. It's simply a fact we all live with and it's going to happen all the time. I liked your guide i had my opinions i stated them.

It's only certain people who really cause the distraction and they know who they are.

you have no need to apologize for anything, the ones that do however probably won't. See ya around ig pal.

Developer final thoughts would be appreciated i'm sure ^^

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Post by Nalzaxx » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:06 am

Indeed I understand this, there was no offence taken. I would just rather it was your character that pointed out the faults in the paper rather than you! It was afterall a former student of yours that wrote it. :p

But I digress further from the point.



I did however have an interesting thought concerning powerful summonings and indeed one that could (although is unlikely to be) applied to the magic system in general.

As it stands the practice of magic in illarion is rather one dimensional; select runes, cast spell. So I had the thought of perhaps expanding the involvement and depth of the system and therefore requirements for summoning the big beasties. My idea was to include a form of ritualised spellcasting in order to create/summon/materialise more powerful monsters that takes in to account a number of ingame factors.

In order to summon say a demon skeleton a mage would need to gather a number of materials (reagents) that would be consumed in the act. A form of Mage's crafting if you will. The materials for each monster would be different and could include things such as feathers, sand, herbs, gemstones etc. Further controls could require a specific time (Only at nightime perhaps) or even a specific location (No demons in TB centre). This would lower the potential for abuse and effectively nullify any loot that could be gained from the monster, or at least prevent its abuse. It would also add to the whole experience of casting a spell and could encourage more roleplay from mages instead of the usual spamming the screen.

Personally I'd like to see a magic system more focused around using items and objects and promoting the need for more interaction in the system. I like the current magic system, but I've always liked the idea of the hooded mage reaching into a small pouch around his waist, drawing a small amount of gemdust from within and watching it transform into a devestating fireball as he hurls it towards his enemy. Few spells, further space between them but incredibly effective. That's just me though.

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