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Post by Bloodhearte » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:52 pm

Sundo Raca wrote:The people arguing that you must pg your life away in order to be taken seriously ig are pissing me off. Surely you want to attract more players, not deter them from the game. Forcing them to sacrifice their life to the yard for a month before you recognise their rp is very counter-productive.

There is no way i will come back to this game in the above playing mode, it takes up too much of my life. If someone rps realistically and in a clear, descriptive and interesting manner, i will accept what they do no matter what colour their skills are.
But, I feel that, say, high swordmanship skills are necessary for a swordsman to be taken seriously.

I remember years ago when one of my characters was in a discussion with Darlok in the tavern. Well, this orc (probably played by a newcomer) decided to come up to my character and push him around. Darlok was trying to speak to my character, so he asked the orc to knock it off. But the orc persisted, and as a result, Darlok came up to him, and with only one blow, clouded the orc.

My first thought was "wow...that's not somebody you want to mess with." For anybody that knew the character, he was well played, and although aggressive, didn't bully everybody to go into combat with him to look like some kind of power freak. Usually his character was on the defensive from other characters who hated his guts.

Skills are just meant for that...to back up your character's role. I've accepted that getting good takes a long time and a lot of playing, so it wouldn't be fair to say "hey newbs, no matter how much time you put into this game, you will see only tiny bits of skill rise every month or so." Talk about boring. There's no way to stop somebody from putting the amount of time and effort into something if they want to.

BUT...I feel seniority should be rewarded as well. So I'm still sticking with the "older-characters-get-a-minor-skill-boost-everyday" idea.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:08 pm

Maybe this is off-topic, but when something should change, one needs to name the levers to be pulled.

How shall this "seniority bonus" look like? Or in other words: On what exactly should skillgain depend? Possible points: Random, money, current skill, time, season, race, attribute, bribes to GMs,...

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Post by Kranek » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:12 pm

age of account, maybe frequency of login in...

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Post by abcfantasy » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:14 pm

Rather than frequency of login, time online, if that can be found. But there might be a problem with chars purposely going AFK for this reason.

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Post by Keikan Hiru » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:18 pm

Bloodhearte wrote: My first thought was "wow...that's not somebody you want to mess with."
*sigh*
I was so cool when I was still young.

On topic:
I wouldn't mind an effect (lte) on your character that adds X minor skill points to your skills after Z server ticks.
After some ticks your minor skill points are full, and will not increase any further. You are not gaining major skill points because of this effect.

This way you have a high chance to recive a skill up the next time you use that skill.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:58 pm

Well, AFKing is forbidden by the rules, so this should not be an issue. And we want players to stay ingame, don't we? As long as they don't idle, it's not a problem for me.

So, online time should be an issue. I believe that those who play most shall get most skill. Not those who click most or found the perfect rhythm of click-idle-click-log out.

I think the skillgain should be scaled by "actions per time". So, when you do many actions/time, you gain less skill from the individual action than somebody who does less actions/time. After the same online time, both should have the same skill though.

Example: Jack Hammer clicks 1 hour like a madmen and mines ore. He performs an action each ten seconds of his online time. After an hour, he has performed 360 actions. Sir Chatsalot spends his time talking to his buddies, mostly. Once in a while, he swings his pick, too. He spends 1 hour ingame, performing an action each 30 seconds. After an hour, he has performed 120 actions. With the margin conditions from above, the skillgain of Sir Chatsalot per action sould be three times as effective as the one of Jack Hammer, so both have exactly the same skillgain after an hour.

OK, such a system needs more margin conditions, naturally, I thought about them, too ;-). Like, those who idle only gain no skill at all and there is a lower threshhold of what time of idling increases your skill yield per action. Also, to make this run smoothly, you need a control circuit that averages your actions/time over a long period. I found a (rather primitive) solution for this (for experts: abuse the remaining control deviation of a proportional control circuit).

A long story, but in conclusion, the question remains: Shall characters who spend the same time ingame have a similar skill level or the degree of adaption to the current anti-PG-system determine the skill level?
Last edited by Estralis Seborian on Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Kranek » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:23 pm

more time ingame = more skill
sounds fair to me

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Post by Nalzaxx » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:10 pm

This still penalizes those who cannot log in/remain ingame for extended periods of time.

If I play for a year every weekend I'm going to have less skill than someone who's played for a month solidly.

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Post by Kranek » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:12 pm

is it possible to take in the age of the account?

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Post by JonathanSmith » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:21 pm

Make ingame time relevant for skill gain is completely nonsense in my eyes.

A fighter who does not fight should not become better.
A crafter who does not work should not become better.
And so on.

Decrease the time effort for skill gain AND increase the time which is needed to regenerate from the gained skill (example: a character reaches the skill cap within 30 minutes and has to rest for 24 hours to be able to gain skill again)

This is in my opinions an easy and good solution to close the gap between the RP oriented and skill oriented players. The first group can invest a little bit time to gain their needed skills, the second group can still increase their skills, but the skilling - idle - skilling - idel - skilling - idle ... system is disabled. This also gives the "older" characters an advantage, because their higher skills can not be reached by the "new" characters that quickly anymore.

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Post by Olive » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:27 pm

why not have it set up where for every 24 hour period you log in after say, a year or two you start to accumulate 'free' exp in skills based uponthe start package you picked when you made your char?

nothing huge or overbearing but say, somebody who is a Mage and spends most of his or her time teaching might gain the equivelant of casting 5 spells in each of the schools of magic every 24 hour period so that the player doesn't feel the invisible push to go out and use magic for the sake of using magic but can instead still slowly improve his or her ability through their teachign of others.

as the char is around longer the increase might raise based upon some universally accepted amount

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Post by Hawkmoon » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:47 pm

What I believe many seem to forget is that when it comes to fighting it is far more efficient to train against other skilled chars than fight monsters... And also much safer... And it also makes RP possible when doing this. So I don't really see any problem there.

I still don't think that newbies should have harder gaining skills than more experienced players..

I really think "char GMs" should be added though. These should be able to play important chars who are needed on the island to make the island more alive and play these chars for the sake of the story and not for themself. These chars could get skills that suits the char without the need of training. This means that these "char GMs" need to be objective in their way of playing though and really play the chars for the story and the game - not for themself.

Ordinary players should have the same possibilites to boost skills though I believe...

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Post by AlexRose » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:03 pm

.. They're called questchars. They've been around since before you were born.

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Post by Hawkmoon » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:14 pm

Well, then I see no point of why to change the skill system really to be honest... I mean when it comes to fighting you can already train more efficient when training against others which should encourage RP...

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Post by Nalzaxx » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:37 pm

Quest characters came, ran amok, and were henceforth banned.

But this is another topic entirely.

Back to the issue at hand though: I am firmly against this whole older characters getting an easier time proposal. It deters newcomers and only seeks to strengthen the elitist old player attitude that has been a bane on illarion since before even my time.

I don't want to see anyone have advantages just because they are an older player. We want to attract people to this game, not scare them away. Quick character progression helps keep interest, motivation and allows for a more diverse selection of both players and characters. The only reason people don't like it is because it threatens their position.

"Newbies shouldn't be able to defeat my character who has been around for 3 years."

Why the hell not?

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Post by Llama » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:43 pm

Because it reduces the motivation and the will to play.

People won't enjoy skilling if they know some new player who knows a couple of tricks can get there in a few days, its not worth it. At least if I worked my paladin/knight/fighter/barbarian to a very high skill level, I'm proud of the effort it took me. If a new player pops in, spends a week and has a better character, what's the point of all my effort? Hell why do I even waste time talking/roleplaying when I could be out killing stuff for moar skillz.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:01 pm

This assumes that the new players doesn't have to put any effort in to match your skill. Granted he may do so in a shorter amount of time, but there is no less effort spent than what you have invested. Its a common misconception that you have somehow spent 'more effort' than another.

I concede that to develop a character over a long period of time and have it overrun by a new player may be demoralizing, but a new player is demoralized when faced with the task of spending years to catch up to the old players reinforced position. They have to then put MORE work in than you to reach the same standard. Isn't this not only demoralizing for them but fundamentally unfair?

You should be roleplaying because you enjoy it and because it develops the social aspects of your character. You'll still be just as well off against the environment, but when it comes to PvP then naturally you are going to have to cope with a competitive environment.

This is why I think the answer isn't to penalize new players by adding old player bonus, but to rethink the way that everyone gains skills that is fair to both old and new players.

As much as many people here seem to think otherwise, new players have just as much right to be in positions of power as old players. Given their roleplay and management is up to acceptable standards there shouldn't be limits to what they can acheive just because old players don't like it.

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Post by Llama » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:27 pm

Nalzaxx wrote:This assumes that the new players doesn't have to put any effort in to match your skill. Granted he may do so in a shorter amount of time, but there is no less effort spent than what you have invested. Its a common misconception that you have somehow spent 'more effort' than another.
Not really, there are methods which you can use to train him up faster. Ever wonder why Matt's characters always pop out of nowhere and end up the best?

Personally I don't mind being overtaken by a newbie, as long as:

A) The RP doesn't suffer (no jackhammering, or spendign 24 hours logged on collecting resources)

B) Its done in a fair way - stuff like fighting gnolls with two shields, or teaming up with your friends' characters so your new character can hack at a dragon isn't what I'd call fair.

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Post by bdgdkay » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:31 pm

There is a problem with your point. Right now, a newbie char can get on, and get a dozen or more skill ups in under ten minutes if they want to, just fighting mummies. Thats already rediculously fast. Then the older characters, sometimes they reach the skill cap before they even get one swirly, and it takes them up to an entire week to get that sometimes. To make it faster for older chars to level up is not penalizing new players, but its rather rewarding the older players who have spent so much of their time devoted to the game.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:49 pm

bdgdkay: That is because of the learning curve involved. It takes older players longer to get swirlies because they already have higher skills. Although I do agree that the curve should be re-adjusted.

Hadrian: Yes, there are methods that Matt knows and he can level characters very quickly. However the thing to keep in mind is that Matt is an older player himself, and is one of a kind in his abilities. I don't think there is a single new player that could step ingame and produce a character as quick as Matt does. His ability to do so is a virtue of his experience with the game, not some universal noob conspiracy. Furthermore there is no reason why anyone cannot learn these 'methods' just because someone doesn't know what they are isn't a fault of the technical system. Your final two points are a matter of responsible playing and I would agree here. However they are a result of player attitude that will be manifest in any system presented.

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Post by Joxia Doral » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:16 pm

I have been playing this game for just about a year now. There are some who my char is no closer to being able to beat some chars in a fight today as she was the day I started...Yet some new chars have passed her skill and are now too good for her to beat as well. I have figured out that this is because of the attributes I chose when I started. So I dont get angry because the new is suddenly better than mine, they were going to be anyway. But I agree it takes too long to skill up once your skill is higher.

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Post by ogerawa » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:41 pm

Basically some of the old players are just jealous, envy, pissed and lazy too :lol: After they are beaten (demoralized), instead of training or accept the lost, some just want easy way to get skills? :roll: Sounds offensive and blunt, but somehow i couldn't found other reason than that. There aren't that many of newb with insane skills suddenly shows up, some probably just didn't notice because they have been too busy playing with their RP buddies ^^, until one day some unknown guy beat them :roll:

The system actually is 100% fair, since there is no shortcut in terms of effort and it's same for old or new chars. It took some people years to reach their current state, but some newbs can reach that state in months. Reality check, the newbs has been "working" hard. By hard i mean, really really really hard. They went thru the same effort you did and actually even more than the effort you have done up until now, because what took you years they did it in months. Your chars might be years old, but how long did you actually spend time grinding the char and doing the never-ending click-frenzy?

So instead of trying to get a shortcut for your char to suddenly get strong for no reason, acknowledge and accept the new char who beat you. The new players seems to be better at doing this than the old players full of pride but too lazy to train :roll: Old players should be a good example to the new players, instead of well... complaining against them for actually playing the game itself.

Actually the old chars already had the advantages. Crafting was easier to get skills in the past, no static item to make stuff. Tools didn't break until recently. 2 shields trick doesn't work anymore, so it was easier. Magic was easier as well, because there was no timer for low level spells. Well... considering if they weren't lazy enough to actually practice during those times that is :lol: Can't really find things that actually is easier to PG at present time, comparing to the past since i started playing. Oh... found one, archery since monsters drop some of the ammo back.

It's true some people has life and some.... not really (of course i'm in here :lol:). But for those who has "life", you are supposed to be happy for having such precious life and gaming is like... a bonus. Fair or not... you decide. If it's still not fair well... join the group of people who doesn't have a life and i shall welcome you to the group personally :lol:

Also, if you know your char isn't as tough as you might want him to be, then don't look for troubles and avoid troubles thus no PvP needed. Heck, you can just run like hell when there is a robber in front of you instead of playing the tough guy and get beaten.

Conclusion:
Things that need to be fix: players' attitude instead of the system?

As for Matt, he's just a rare case :lol: And normally he hid his char when it's still weak then shows up when he's pretty much more than just a decent fighter.

PS: i'm available for PG counseling :lol:

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Post by Vern Kron » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:58 pm

I was more of addressing the issue that the attributes required for a certain thing, may change, so to continue having an older char still function well I was proposing a way to change that, and a way for them to gain skill faster to 'recover' from the change.

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Post by ogerawa » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:09 am

Was there any attribute changed so far? o.oa I'm asking because I haven't realized any, except for magic which only warlocks affected. But then again if they change their attributes to teach... they won't be a warlock any longer.

Faster gaining skill because of a change.... doesn't sounds right... '-'a If there is a change, all old players affected. But newbs won't know much about those as well, unless it's old player with new chars.

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Post by Vern Kron » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:17 am

Right, but people keep talking about changing what attributes do what, and about skill gain, and every other thing like this. And if its an old player, on a new char, the new char would be just at the same level as a newb.

Basically, I see it as a way to have more 'developed' characters, rather then chars that people play for two months, get bored, kill off, and then make a new character.

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Post by ogerawa » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:34 am

If old player make new char, well it's their choice to start all over again. The more 'developed' chars, would be... their own old chars? If they just never train them, then it's their own fault for not developing the char after so long. Faster skill gain would only make some other people (most likely not the one intended) get more skills faster, because the one who asked for faster skill gain would normally be too lazy to bother with training their chars anyway. Or in best case, they would train for a bit and then soon will complain again that the faster skill gain isn't enough.

You give them something, and it won't be long until they ask some more from you :) Some would at least ^^;;;

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Post by LifeWonder » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:23 am

I didn't read the whole thread, but here's an idea I'm throwing out there:

The more you stay online, the more "X points" that you gain.

You can redeem these "X points" for certain percentages of skills for your character.

"X points" could be relative to accounts instead of characters so you can redeem them on any character.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:08 pm

Vern Kron wrote: Basically, I see it as a way to have more 'developed' characters, rather then chars that people play for two months, get bored, kill off, and then make a new character.
So people are encouraged to play characters that they are bored with?

That sounds more like work than fun.

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Post by Llama » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:59 pm

ogerawa wrote:Was there any attribute changed so far? o.oa I'm asking because I haven't realized any, except for magic which only warlocks affected.
I still remember perception being used only for critical hits and ranged fighting ;)

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Post by ogerawa » Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:07 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:I still remember perception being used only for critical hits and ranged fighting ;)
and... it's not any longer? o.oa except treasure hunting... :lol:

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