Discussion about PG.

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Post by Llama » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 pm

Pellandria wrote:This is why we play adult chars here and not children ; ).

Fact remains, your upbrining might influence you in a degree, but it still does not change whats given form the start,
You are so very wrong here Pell.

Although genetics does play a part, in real life, upbringing has more of an effect. That is why people go to university if they're really smart - and that's why people who work out are more muscular - and that's why when I had started playing the piano 4 years before I wasn't as good. Nothing about 'natural dex' or anything.

But this is beside the point isn't it?
--

The problem here appears to be that: Certain characters can be pged to be the best in a few days, and those who have played for YEARS are out-classed by them.

Now perhaps the attributes should have more control over things, that I agree with. Maybe how fast you learn shouldn't depend just on intel, but on the relative skills. Its not 'realistic' that's true, but its balancing at least.

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Post by Pellandria » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:51 pm

Hadrian I did not say that talent automaticly makes you the best of the best, I simply said that there are genetic influences that shape your body and mind as it is, just take albert einstein or any other genius, those people were naturally gifted, if I might remind you that einstein was bored at school and actually was bad there, so your argument that you can only be smart, when you have a certaint grade of education does not apply for everyone.

Now skills on the other side are training, this is where you shape what you are given, someone who might not be naturally strong can gain some muscles with training, but someone who has the natural ability to build muscles faster will always be better than this person or on the other side, someone who is fragile will have a harder time to reach the same goal.

All I'm saying is that abilietis are given to us, while skill/training can either overcome some natural given ablitys or make you better there.

Just take our eyesight and hearing for example, would you say those change because we are brought up different, I doubt that, unless you never learned how to care for these things.

So to make the line back to what Luc said, I disagree that someone with special attributs should have some disadvantage somewhere, like someone intelligent who suddendly has some fragile body or someone strong who is automaticly stupid, the only way to controll this mass learning in a short time is to maybe depend the skills on the main attributs, liek estralis once said figthing knowledge is based on strength and maybe speed, crafting on dex and magic stays on int, but this will in the end just postphone the issue, in the end there is no good way to stop powergamers unless you make a general skillcap that keeps every skill under 50% for the first half year or something of that kind.

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Post by Llama » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:13 pm

Pellandria wrote:if I might remind you that einstein was bored at school and actually was bad there
I'm sorry but I could not find that particular piece of information from the internet. Hmm, ah here's something

"Einstein always received school marks ranging from good to very good, therefore it is a legend that he received bad marks in school."

Hmm, riight. You were saying?
Just take our eyesight and hearing for example, would you say those change because we are brought up different, I doubt that, unless you never learned how to care for these things.
Trust you to take the exception to the rule there. The other 'abilities' in real life can all be edited by skills. My fingers are rather dexterous because I used to play the piano. Before I couldn't make each hand work independantly - and there are EXCERCISES to make yourself more dexterous. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Virtuo ... _Exercises

I disagree that someone with special attributs should have some disadvantage somewhere, like someone intelligent who suddendly has some fragile body or someone strong who is automaticly stupid,
I'm not saying that all intelligent people are weak. I'm not even saying that all strong people are stupid. The problem here lies in illarion's linear attributes. Personally I think you can be intelligent AND strong. But if you're a GENIUS who dedicates his life to books, then you're not going to be much else. The solution would have been (ideally) that each attribute costs more depending on how much you have already. So 10-11 would cost 1 and 17-18 would cost more.
--
All I'm saying is that abilietis are given to us, while skill/training can either overcome some natural given ablitys or make you better there.
This makes me think that the best solution would be the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system (used in halo 1/2) where basically attributes determined how much starting skill you got. I think it wouldn't be such a bad idea - I dislike how important attributes are in the future, when you're really skilled it should hardly matter.

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Post by Vern Kron » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:17 pm

Alright.

On one hand, we do not want people to totally rp their skills. On the other hand, we don't want characters to be amazingly powerful in a week of play, and be able to pwn those who have been here for years.

So, how about this...(there is more than what I said before, but just repeating it)

New characters have an easier time skilling up, since they have less experience to earn before they swirlie. Don't put a limit on how high they can go.

Give veterans, a -little- boost, in the ability to gain skill. Such as, for every... year, RL, played, you get a 5% boost in skill gain. Ofcourse, this is only for the char and -not- for the account. Year two, you then have a 10% boost.

Now, here is something that I think that may be able to help with flexibility, development of characters, and so forth. We have a birthday system now. It keeps track of the date your character was born, and that it was created on. Perhaps, every time its your characters birthday, you are able to move the attributes around some(say, relocating three points). For every say 2 years, they get another attribute point. The point at which the credit begins to build up, is perhaps at the age of 20. Until then, your character can change only attributes, and not gain any.

After thinking about it for a bit, giving this bonus to characters who are created at old ages, would not be truely fair. A human could get a large amount of points, let alone what elves could get. So, this bonus should only be awarded for played years.

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Post by Pellandria » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:42 pm

Seriously, leaving half of someones post out to just take a quarter of what really is important is not a way to argue, maybe someone should teach you that.
Hadrian_Abela wrote: [...]
"Einstein always received school marks ranging from good to very good, therefore it is a legend that he received bad marks in school."

Hmm, riight. You were saying?
[...]
Again you should read all of it, it mentions that he just began speaking while being 3 years old and that his grades in languages never were good.

Trust you to take the exception to the rule there. The other 'abilities' in real life can all be edited by skills. My fingers are rather dexterous because I used to play the piano. Before I couldn't make each hand work independantly[...]
You should really learn to read all of it, as I mentioned you can shape your abilities with training, someone with a "good start" in his natural given abilitys will have it easier then someone wiithout those naturally given abilities, I never said that one thing means you can't learn another thing, its just that you have talents, which mean in this case higher attributs, that allow you to do something better than the next guy and you still will be, when you both train at exactly the same rate.


I'm not saying that all intelligent people are weak. I'm not even saying that all strong people are stupid.
You did not, but you would have seen that this was directed towards the argument from luc, where he said that certaint attributs will cut down certaint skill possibilietys, which was the cause, why this debat over natural learning and training arose.
The problem here lies in illarion's linear attributes. Personally I think you can be intelligent AND strong. But if you're a GENIUS who dedicates his life to books, then you're not going to be much else. The solution would have been (ideally) that each attribute costs more depending on how much you have already. So 10-11 would cost 1 and 17-18 would cost more.
Yet again I need to disagree, if you are highly intelligent, than you can use it or you can't use it, someone who is intelligent, could also live like some rundown beggar, simply because he is not using his talent, you will need to controll this over skill and skillcaps rather than attributcaps, because that would mean in the end that we exactly have one thing, strong and stupid chars, who fall over death when they stub their toe and are as slow and clumsy as a snail and mages who are more fragil as glass, blind like a mole and can't even lift their wand, steriotypes are something that Illarion won't need anymore.

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Post by Llama » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:50 pm

Pellandria wrote:Seriously, leaving half of someones post out to just take a quarter of what really is important is not a way to argue, maybe someone should teach you that.
The irony is that you did just that ;)
Hadrian_Abela wrote: [...]
"Einstein always received school marks ranging from good to very good, therefore it is a legend that he received bad marks in school."

Hmm, riight. You were saying?
[...]
Again you should read all of it, it mentions that he just began speaking while being 3 years old and that his grades in languages never were good.
Woah, grades in languages. I'm sure knowing languages is a sign of intelligence and not good memory, because languages are worked out in a logical manner.
Trust you to take the exception to the rule there. The other 'abilities' in real life can all be edited by skills. My fingers are rather dexterous because I used to play the piano. Before I couldn't make each hand work independantly[...]
You should really learn to read all of it, as I mentioned you can shape your abilities with training, someone with a "good start" in his natural given abilitys will have it easier then someone wiithout those naturally given abilities, I never said that one thing means you can't learn another thing, its just that you have talents, which mean in this case higher attributs, that allow you to do something better than the next guy and you still will be, when you both train at exactly the same rate.
Yes a good start. Not a 'Zoom-become-a-master-fighter-in-a-week' start. Again you're suggesting (indirectly) that attributes give a startign bonus to skills.
The problem here lies in illarion's linear attributes. Personally I think you can be intelligent AND strong. But if you're a GENIUS who dedicates his life to books, then you're not going to be much else. The solution would have been (ideally) that each attribute costs more depending on how much you have already. So 10-11 would cost 1 and 17-18 would cost more.
Yet again I need to disagree, if you are highly intelligent, than you can use it or you can't use it, someone who is intelligent, could also live like some rundown beggar, simply because he is not using his talent, you will need to controll this over skill and skillcaps rather than attributcaps, because that would mean in the end that we exactly have one thing, strong and stupid chars, who fall over death when they stub their toe and are as slow and clumsy as a snail and mages who are more fragil as glass, blind like a mole and can't even lift their wand, steriotypes are something that Illarion won't need anymore.
[/quote]

And these 'steriotypes' are simply someone taking the extreme points of one attribute at the cost of many others. With the system I 'suggested', you can have a balanced fighter. You can even have a GOOD fighter who isn't retarded. But as soon as you enter the EXTREME stages, then everything else goes to pieces. Think Hawking ;)

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Post by Pellandria » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:25 am

Hadrian_Abela wrote: The irony is that you did just that ;)
You should look up irony aswell, there is a difference of allready quoting isolated pockets of arguments and answering those, than takin one sentence out of a whole argument and answering that.

Hadrian_Abela wrote: Woah, grades in languages. I'm sure knowing languages is a sign of intelligence and not good memory, because languages are worked out in a logical manner.
Languages are just as every topic, to understand it is to work for it, this is exactly what I'm saying all day allready, we know that this man was higly gifted, yet he was not perfect and this is how I see talents/attributs aswell, they give you a boost, but someone still can overcome disadvantages with training.

Yes a good start. Not a 'Zoom-become-a-master-fighter-in-a-week' start. Again you're suggesting (indirectly) that attributes give a startign bonus to skills.
You are forgetting that older chars would get a boost aswell, means if you got a fighter that actually is balanced or spend points on speed and strength he will be better than the int-strength figther, thus making these int strength figther paying for their "abuse" and making sill less important than attributs.

And these 'steriotypes' are simply someone taking the extreme points of one attribute at the cost of many others. With the system I 'suggested', you can have a balanced fighter. You can even have a GOOD fighter who isn't retarded. But as soon as you enter the EXTREME stages, then everything else goes to pieces. Think Hawking ;)
You are on the wrong track here, people tend to make it the best everywhere, is your a mage balanced out, are there any "good" balanced fighter as it is today?
I guess not, guess does not mean knowing btw., so you are saying we make it harder, spend more on skills than attributs, but still where is the point, do you make a figther more balanced , but learn much less and slower or do you make an exrem char and still be beating up normal balanced people, because the skill in the end counts out the attribut penalitys, so you gotta decide on one thing.

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Post by Vern Kron » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:29 am

Lets move away from argueing, and head more towards working together to put together a new system. Smacking our heads together until one admits defeat won't accomplish anything.

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Post by Pellandria » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:38 am

Yeah, but a new system can't be done without debating, after all there were several new skillsystem proposed, some of them were very nice, but most of them are put down anyway.

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Post by bdgdkay » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:47 am

In my defense, I had no clue of what any stat did when I created my char.. so he ended up with maxed strength, constitution, and intelligence. Ive always figured intelleigence was just an rp based attribute, actually had resented it.

But, going along with what Julius said, there are alot of people that have been here for years.. even Ive been playing for a year and a half, which might not be the longest, but surely not a short amount of time. For my first six months, I did pg -alot-, meaning a good three hours, every day for 6 months without fail. And thats not to say I havent trained at all since then... just with more moderation

That is alot of time, no matter which way you cut it. Suddenly, there are chars showing up, and in ONE month of pging are able to beat Altrix with no problem. I know Hawkmoon is mainly referring to my complaint, as that is really quote on quote what I had said about him showing up and in one month being able to win a fight with Altrix. But lets be honest, I, aswell as many others, have put -alot- of time and effort into our characters, but that time is not taken into consideration by the fact that people -are- able to pg like that.

Also, another important thing to take into consideration is what Deuce said. Some of us have other things to do, and playing can become a luxury to us, so then the sheer fact that we have a job/school, works against us ig, and those that are able to sit there for hours on end dont get slowed down at all.

So, what im trying to say is, I support Deuce's idea of one skill cap each day, wheter you are ig or not.

Also, I support Vern's idea, that over time, the people who have played the game for a long time should be given small bonuses, namely the attribute fixes and such.

Finally, I think Julius has a point, and I'm not sure if he was saying this should be implemented, But stats should have abit more to do with your char, and not be solely based on attributes.

Not sure if this is what he means but:
Lets face it, when you make your first char, you have nearly no idea what each thing does for you, so first you max out the thing you understand the most, being strength. Everyone knows a warrior is strong... just a fact.
Next, if you have had any sort of experience with other games, you know that Constitution relates to health
But you think that Dexterity is used for daggers and bows... which it might, but from what Ive heard, alot later in my ig experience, that it has to do with shields, being an important part of any warrior.
Everyone knows agility has to do with speed, so they generally think of daggers and bows, being what you expect of a Ranger style of char.
Etc.

All in all, people generally think of what a sword-wielding warrior would have, and then later find out they picked the wrong stats. But, by the time they figure this all out as what it really is, they have already levelled up their char alot, and dont want to have to start from scratch. Then other people make new characters, and happen to know what each thing is used for, and are able to kill the old players with ease.

And..... by this point I forgot where I was going, but I think I was trying to say, people have played their characters for a long time, and with a lot of effort, and that should be taken into consideration.. and stuff.

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Post by ogerawa » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:19 am

*jumps into the silly arguements*
JonathanSmith wrote:QFT with a little addtion: only ONE skill cap per day, to give the RP based players a chance to gain comparable skills (and has a similar effect as Vern's proposal).
Hrm... won't really help for the RP based players. Since mostly they just RP and probably only half of the RP based players actually do some training aka PGing? Sure it will make the PGer slow down their PGing, but it's only a matter of time before they get to the max once again. Reduce it further to ONE skill cap per week? per month? per year? Remove skills entirely? :lol: Also there are only like a few people who can actually max their skill in 1 week. You are going to change the whole system just because of a few people? Start PGing instead :P Illa is a game, not just a simple RP chat room
Hadrian_Abela wrote:The solution would have been (ideally) that each attribute costs more depending on how much you have already. So 10-11 would cost 1 and 17-18 would cost more.
This would results in a high probability of creating the other "hated" jack of all trades chars :D
Vern Kron wrote:Give veterans, a -little- boost, in the ability to gain skill. Such as, for every... year, RL, played, you get a 5% boost in skill gain. Ofcourse, this is only for the char and -not- for the account. Year two, you then have a 10% boost.
Boost is nice, i can use that :twisted: But will the old chars start PGing as well, instead of just say... "complaint"? Else the boost in skillgain rather pointless (except for me :lol: )
Vern Kron wrote:Now, here is something that I think that may be able to help with flexibility, development of characters, and so forth. We have a birthday system now. It keeps track of the date your character was born, and that it was created on. Perhaps, every time its your characters birthday, you are able to move the attributes around some(say, relocating three points). For every say 2 years, they get another attribute point. The point at which the credit begins to build up, is perhaps at the age of 20. Until then, your character can change only attributes, and not gain any.
Although i like the flexibility in attributes, but this would probably be abused. Say... first you get a lot of intel (based on current system) and after a year or so, when you can switch around the attributes, you reduce the intel and put them in a fighter attributes. Thus the old PGed char is actually more stronger than ever before. The second part about the gaining attribute points. This is certainly good indeed, although most likely (after a few years) the whole monster stats would need to be rebalance including the fighting system because the chars will be overpowered. And then there will be a trouble if the rebalance is based on the overpowered chars... the newbs will have lots of trouble. If not rebalance then the overpowered chars can kill red skeletons as if they are flies to newb chars.
bdgdkay wrote:All in all, people generally think of what a sword-wielding warrior would have, and then later find out they picked the wrong stats. But, by the time they figure this all out as what it really is, they have already levelled up their char alot, and dont want to have to start from scratch. Then other people make new characters, and happen to know what each thing is used for, and are able to kill the old players with ease.
Those new chars, that could kill the old players with ease, are actually played by old players (mostly at least unless made the stats by luck xD). Else they won't know how to level up their char that fast. So... basically they start from scratch after knowing what stats a warrior actually need. You could actually do the same, but you prefer not to. So it's your own choice whether you want a stronger char but have to re-train him or keep the current one but won't be that strong in the end. As for me i chose to keep my current state, not so strong and accept those who can actually beat me eg. hawkmoon. Heck... ogerawa even older than Altrix, but if a guy can beat ogerawa then so be it. He's pretty strong but he's not the strongest and won't ever be in a fair duel. And also (just a note) it takes me at least half year to achieve his fighting skills.

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Post by Avalyon el'Hattarr » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:34 am

Wait, I have an idea.. let's remove the skills because it's not fair how some prefere to sit arround all day insted of training them, let's remove items because it's not fair that since you don't train you have no money for items, heck.. let's remove even the graphics, I bet that someone will find a reason for that too. Let's make Illarion a text-based RPG, none will complain there.. or would they? :roll:

lol

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:47 am

I admit I did not read the posts above. But I feel the need to post my criticism on the current skill system. Many aspects are very good and must not be kaputtrepariered, as Avalyon pointed out.

Good Aspects
  • Learning by doing - you get better in what you do
  • Steep learning curve - higher levels are harder to get than low levels, skillgain decreases to higher levels
  • Minor skill points - there is a minimum of actions for each swirlie and it is not totally random
  • Jackhammer clickers are not favoured due to control measurements to skillgain ("MC-System")
Bad Aspects
  • The MC-System encourages players to idle or log out when the cap is hit
  • The skill relevant ingame time can be as small as some minutes until the cap is hit
  • Casual gamers who cannot idle for an hour are affected, most
  • The skill system does not take into account how much time an action needs. A fast action generates the same skillgain as a slow action of the same kind
  • The learning curve is bullocks (=10 swirlies in a minute) for low levels and incredible steep (=not a swirlie in a week) for high levels
  • INT is the ONLY attribute that matters for skillgain. Maxing out INT helps for any profession, a smart fighter will be better than a swift and strong fighter
  • The system is too complicated and cannot be tweaked easily
  • Engine-adapted character behaviour promises most skillgain - here: Skill-idle-skill-idle - constant playing a role is discouraged
  • Anti-PG-measures hit all players and intended use of the engine (=playing) is punished
The devs are in receipt of a proposal how to keep the good aspects while eliminating the bad aspects.

@Avalyon: Word! Illarion is a game afterall!

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Post by ogerawa » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:32 am

@avalyon: of course they would complain, because with text-based RPG you can't tell who is actually the strongest :lol: And so there will be arguements about who should be the strongest :roll: Or create a new law, who is the most stubborn will be the strongest :twisted: So if you can stay around and doesn't need to sleep, you don't need to end the fight thus the people who actually sleep will have to lose so they can sleep :lol: :lol: :lol:
Estralis Seborian wrote:Illarion is a game afterall!
Exactly, that's why the game should be played instead of complaining about the people who actually play the game. :) *shrugs*

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Post by Harald Hradradr » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:43 pm

Strange...

... to read all that, when just a thread ahead people whine about characters who have mastered every skill. :oops: Could you guys please decide if it wether or not is easy to reach 100% skill?

I really like the system right now. A high int character has advantages when it comes to learning but will suffer later, when the dumbass also reached 100% skill. So what? When you stay true to your characters role, you WILL reach that cap the sooner or later. It may take longer but... *shrugs* isn't that also part of long time motivation?
Another thought while reading all that was: Hehe! Hear, hear! It might not be easy to be the old veteran fighter when the newcomer is a grand fighter also. ;) But that only leads to a point, where the good old 'commanding around' behaviour of some characters in the past decreased, because the new one 'could' beat them.

It is a role playing game, guys! No virtual 'dick comparison'.

The only problem i also see Estralis already stated:
The skill system does not take into account how much time an action needs. A fast action generates the same skillgain as a slow action of the same kind

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Post by Llama » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:52 pm

Harald Hradradr wrote:A high int character has advantages when it comes to learning but will suffer later, when the dumbass also reached 100% skill.
Yes in a few years' time. Most people quit, create new characters, or branch out when that happens.

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Post by ogerawa » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:33 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:Yes in a few years' time. Most people quit, create new characters, or branch out when that happens.
Only took around half year with 14 int. And since i'm a jack of all trades, those half year was spent on some other things as well instead of just fighting. Well even in fighting he toyed around with all the weapons. So if a char would spend time fighting until they capped once per day, within half year... that would be more than enough to beat the instant new super fighters. Just that most of the veteran, who posted here, would rather *cough*complain*cough* rather than playing the game, sadly.

Well can't stop those who quit. But if they are actually creating new chars, then they would have know what attributes needed to make instant new super fighters. And also, they probably would be able to see if it's as easy as they spoke in threads. Another thing,a week to make a new char into super fighter, i'd say only Matt would be able to done it :wink: :roll: :lol:

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Post by Llama » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:38 pm

Why does everyone talk about fighters? Give us crafters a look too!

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Post by Harald Hradradr » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:39 pm

@Hadrian_Abela

And where is the link? Why do you care what others do with their characters as long as you have fun playing yours the way you do? Oh and of course as long as you do not get oppressed by the powergamer.

You want fast leveling? Well then... give your char max int. You want slow evolving? Fine, you can have that also.

So, the virtual 'dick comparison' aside, where exactly is your problem?

By the way, it is not a few years. I tested that with a character made for fighting. His int was mediocre at best. But he advanced extremly fast. It would be possible to bring him up to 70 to 90% in about two to three month with not all that much time spent. Fighting the 'right' enemy caps him in an hour or so.

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Post by LifeWonder » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:15 pm

Harald Hradradr wrote:dick comparison
( ._.)

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Post by Nalzaxx » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:16 pm

I challenge this very notion that there is an influx of new characters that are becoming super good in little over a month.

While it is certainly possible to create an incredibly strong character in a month there are only a very few select people, who have the experience, knowledge and know-how of the game environment, skillgain procedure, and attribute setting that are able to perform such feats.

If you're trying to rebalance because of these select few people then you are always going to have a hard time. Purely because it is the difference between the efficiency of those competent few against the inefficiency of the majority which creates such short times.

People are always going to find the quickest, most efficient means of getting what they want and this is always going to pose a problem in these types of systems.


The only way to accomodate the casual players in a way which still gives them a fighting chance is to implement a play-time independent system such as used in something like Eve-Online. Here skills are raised automatically even when the character is not logged in. (Although they rise quicker when players are ingame I believe.)

This may be a desirable system, but then it detracts from actually using the engine and the game world to a great extent. How many people would bother exploring and training or even crafting items for that matter when their skillgain increases automatically. If you add bonuses for those people still engaging in the activity then you come to the same situation as we have now. Some people will refine their methods and accelerate their learning above and beyond the average player.

Normally this isn't a problem, but I think half the issue at least in illarion is the fact that it IS such a small closed community and so when things happen everyone notices them. In a large population game someone who climbs the ranks quickly never gets noticed, just another player thats worked their way up. However in Illa it has big consequences for the ingame community and those at the top feel threatened by the more powerful newcomers. Unfortunately what they are trying to do is, as someone pointed out earlier, Roleplay strength in a world where strength is engine defined.

Really the issue isn't about the skillgain system at all, it is about control and having a character that is better than others.


Personally I think a good way to help the issue is to close the gap between the 'casual' players and the 'hardcore' players by introducing more dynamic and varied means of skillgain. Currently powergaming is the ONLY way in which to gain 'experience'. I would prefer to see the classical method of leveling kept as more of a bonus system while the main focus switches to a more quest/event orientated skillgain system.

This way experience can be introduced in in terms of achievement rather than time spent clicking. With a large enough cross section of quests it will also help to close the gap. Those who grind will still be ahead of the rest, but it will be by 10-15 points rather than 30-40. The casual players can still level up well by going on weekend adventures but the hardcore players maintain their edge.

Although this has been generalised for fighting it can also be applied to any other craft or skill.

+10 Library research for finding the secret library of Melkor.
+15 Fishing for catching the Great Marlin.
+5 Carpentry for reparing the stranded merchants cart.
+5 Farming for finding the Old Farmers scythe.

Its more interesting, more productive and more time effective. However on the downside it creates a huge amount of work for the dev team creating all those quests and scenarios.

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Post by Bloodhearte » Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:54 pm

Estralis Seborian wrote:I admit I did not read the posts above. But I feel the need to post my criticism on the current skill system. Many aspects are very good and must not be kaputtrepariered, as Avalyon pointed out.

Good Aspects
  • Learning by doing - you get better in what you do
  • Steep learning curve - higher levels are harder to get than low levels, skillgain decreases to higher levels
  • Minor skill points - there is a minimum of actions for each swirlie and it is not totally random
  • Jackhammer clickers are not favoured due to control measurements to skillgain ("MC-System")
Bad Aspects
  • The MC-System encourages players to idle or log out when the cap is hit
  • The skill relevant ingame time can be as small as some minutes until the cap is hit
  • Casual gamers who cannot idle for an hour are affected, most
  • The skill system does not take into account how much time an action needs. A fast action generates the same skillgain as a slow action of the same kind
  • The learning curve is bullocks (=10 swirlies in a minute) for low levels and incredible steep (=not a swirlie in a week) for high levels
  • INT is the ONLY attribute that matters for skillgain. Maxing out INT helps for any profession, a smart fighter will be better than a swift and strong fighter
  • The system is too complicated and cannot be tweaked easily
  • Engine-adapted character behaviour promises most skillgain - here: Skill-idle-skill-idle - constant playing a role is discouraged
  • Anti-PG-measures hit all players and intended use of the engine (=playing) is punished
The devs are in receipt of a proposal how to keep the good aspects while eliminating the bad aspects.

@Avalyon: Word! Illarion is a game afterall!
In regards to the second-last reason you mention, I'd recommend making the skill-gain easier and faster so more people would reach the peak they desire and could spend more time concentrating on playing their character. I know anti-PG people are big vehements against this, but let's face it - Illarion was funner back in the day. It wouldn't be a surprise to see 50 some odd people on at once during the day. AND guess what? There were still many players who had no desire to be strong fighters, and maintained their role as crafters or what have you. If you ask 99% of gamers to play Illarion and stay will it, they won't because things are too damn slow and too damn hard.

It seems like the whole "making-the-skillgain-harder" idea came about because newbies were reaching skill peaks they shouldn't be reaching. What was the problem with that? Well, it detracted from the benefit of being an old player, with newbies kicking their asses all the time. So what's a way to prevent this? Either make the skillgain easier altogether, or, do what somebody else suggested and automatically give a skill benefit as players stay with their characters longer, whether they choose to practice that skill or not.

The community is way too small, IMO.

But I can't complain too much, I love this game, it's fun for me. I've been playing since I was 15 and now I'm 21. Just throwing the suggestion out there.

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Post by Sundo Raca » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:28 pm

The people arguing that you must pg your life away in order to be taken seriously ig are pissing me off. Surely you want to attract more players, not deter them from the game. Forcing them to sacrifice their life to the yard for a month before you recognise their rp is very counter-productive.

There is no way i will come back to this game in the above playing mode, it takes up too much of my life. If someone rps realistically and in a clear, descriptive and interesting manner, i will accept what they do no matter what colour their skills are.

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Post by Mesha » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:35 pm

Good points Bloodhearte.

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Post by Hawkmoon » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:38 pm

Sundo Raca wrote:The people arguing that you must pg your life away in order to be taken seriously ig are pissing me off. Surely you want to attract more players, not deter them from the game. Forcing them to sacrifice their life to the yard for a month before you recognise their rp is very counter-productive.

There is no way i will come back to this game in the above playing mode, it takes up too much of my life. If someone rps realistically and in a clear, descriptive and interesting manner, i will accept what they do no matter what colour their skills are.
Don't get me wrong, but I think you are wrong really... I have never said that people must PG in order to be taken serious. I do think that those who expects to be taken serious as great warriors or great crafters actually should have something to back it up with though. I mean there are skills after all in the game engine...

I mean you can't create certain great items until you have reached a certain skill as well as you can't beat a troll, goblin or demon skeleton without some fighting skills.

I fully support good RP as most people do I would say, but if skills were not there it would simply be heaps of the worlds greatest warriors/crafters/mages. Sure there are many people who want to play ordinary people as well, but many (if not most?) do want to play chars that are great in certain areas after all.

I really think that those who wants to be great warriors need to work for it. If you don't want to spend that much time to PG, start the char in early age and let the char develop much slover. I mean if you start the char at age 14 and train now and then, the char will probably be really good in what the char do when the char is 30 or so.

Sure.. You can RP a lot - even RP as you are the greatest warrior but it will be kinda strange if this "greatest warrior of Gobaith" gets beaten up by the demon skeleton if that attacks...

Just stating why this will be problems... If you don't have time or even interest of PG- play something else that don't need PG perhaps? Or maybe join as GM and create chars that can get good skills right away.

I would like to see some GMs that play some chars (like really evil chars and so perhaps?) regulary like the rest of us do with our chars just to add chars and more depth to the world without the need of PG.

For the rest of us I think those who want to be great in skills, actually also have to work hard for those skills or everyone would have the same skills all the sudden. But this is just my opinion of course...

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Post by bdgdkay » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:29 am

@ Hawkmoon:

What you just said contradicts itself. You just said you never said you had to spend hours in the graveyard to be taken seriously, but then you continued to state that you had to have skills to back up your rp. Something attainable by sitting in the graveyard for hours.

Please, do not say something if you do not mean it, it does not help your arguement.

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Post by Hawkmoon » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:39 am

bdgdkay wrote:@ Hawkmoon:

What you just said contradicts itself. You just said you never said you had to spend hours in the graveyard to be taken seriously, but then you continued to state that you had to have skills to back up your rp. Something attainable by sitting in the graveyard for hours.

Please, do not say something if you do not mean it, it does not help your arguement.
No contradictions...

What I say is that RP is of course the foundation of this game. I also state thought that there will be problems if you RP a really skilled char in any skill and then when the char is supposed to use the skill with the engine (make an item, fight NPC or other char with the engine), then the RP will be kinda strange.

So what I mean is that if you really wanna play a char that is extremely great in a skill then you probably need to be really patient and let it take time, or else you need to PG.

As long as you don't state that you are the greates warrior or best crafter then it should be no problem though. I mean is it really the point that everyone should be top notch of a skill? Well RP that if you want even if you can't back it up but you must agree it might turn out into kinda.... Strange situations, right? The char might end up being seen as a liar instead of a great crafter/warrior if he needs to prove his skills if he can't back it up. But if someone wants to risk that - go ahead! I gladly RP as long as it must no be proved. Simple as that I must say.

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Post by Sundo Raca » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:42 am

Hawkmoon wrote:
Sundo Raca wrote:The people arguing that you must pg your life away in order to be taken seriously ig are pissing me off. Surely you want to attract more players, not deter them from the game. Forcing them to sacrifice their life to the yard for a month before you recognise their rp is very counter-productive.

There is no way i will come back to this game in the above playing mode, it takes up too much of my life. If someone rps realistically and in a clear, descriptive and interesting manner, i will accept what they do no matter what colour their skills are.
Don't get me wrong, but I think you are wrong really... I have never said that people must PG in order to be taken serious. I do think that those who expects to be taken serious as great warriors or great crafters actually should have something to back it up with though. I mean there are skills after all in the game engine...

I mean you can't create certain great items until you have reached a certain skill as well as you can't beat a troll, goblin or demon skeleton without some fighting skills.

I fully support good RP as most people do I would say, but if skills were not there it would simply be heaps of the worlds greatest warriors/crafters/mages. Sure there are many people who want to play ordinary people as well, but many (if not most?) do want to play chars that are great in certain areas after all.

I really think that those who wants to be great warriors need to work for it. If you don't want to spend that much time to PG, start the char in early age and let the char develop much slover. I mean if you start the char at age 14 and train now and then, the char will probably be really good in what the char do when the char is 30 or so.

Sure.. You can RP a lot - even RP as you are the greatest warrior but it will be kinda strange if this "greatest warrior of Gobaith" gets beaten up by the demon skeleton if that attacks...

Just stating why this will be problems... If you don't have time or even interest of PG- play something else that don't need PG perhaps? Or maybe join as GM and create chars that can get good skills right away.

I would like to see some GMs that play some chars (like really evil chars and so perhaps?) regulary like the rest of us do with our chars just to add chars and more depth to the world without the need of PG.

For the rest of us I think those who want to be great in skills, actually also have to work hard for those skills or everyone would have the same skills all the sudden. But this is just my opinion of course...
Wasnt necessarily reffering to you.

My main point is simply that pging in illarion is not fun, and therefore shouldnt be a necessity in order to play the game since you need more players rather than fewer.

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Post by abcfantasy » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:46 am

In illarion, both RP and technicalities (if you say that word) are important. If RP alone was important, than you can go to text RPGs. If technicalities (this word sure looks strange >.>) alone are important, you can go to some other free MMORPG.

Therefore, the best thing to do is create a char who is naturally weak and unskilled, then begins to learn as you play him, training and RPing.

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Post by Nitram » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:57 am

abcfantasy wrote:Therefore, the best thing to do is create a char who is naturally weak and unskilled, then begins to learn as you play him, training and RPing.
Nothing to add to this line.

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