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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:39 am
by Dantagon Marescot
That leads to the question, what is an acceptable powergamed level? Or better, what is an acceptable skill level? ;)

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:49 am
by Julius
Depending on attributes, I'm not sure. Definitely above 80 in slashing and parry (easy enough, Matt can obtain that in 3 days or less) with a sprinkling of other essential fighting skills. But then again, it really, and I mean really, doesn't matter. If a PGer wants to say he's better at rping because he can pg too, then so be it. If that same person gets fulfillment because he actually won something in life (a duel) then sure, let him have that too.

If you want to play a warrior and have more fun (key word here, because it's a game) rping then you do waiting for swirlies, then there is no reason to even worry about anyone else. Personally, even if you don't believe me, I try my best to rp Dantagon as a advanced fighter, despite his small stature (which in actuality would mean he'd be hard as hell to knock down). If a character presents me with a genuine level of RP for a fighter, even if his skills are 0, I'm not going to discriminate.

Unfortunately not everyone carries that same view. However, my msn and pm box is open to anyone who wants to know how to train without breaking rules. :)

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:15 am
by Dantagon Marescot
Anyone who can hit 80% skill level in fighting in three days needs to get a life and a job. (Love yah Matt). Though your second paragraph confuses me. Just what are you implying?

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:22 am
by Lily Crystal
I don't see anything wrong with you gaining the skills of your role as you roleplay your role, but that's just my opinion. Personally, when I play the game, my objective isn't to skill up. I enjoy interacting with other people so much more through my role to bring the Illarion world to life. For example, when I peel onions and stir them into a cooking bowl to make "cream of onion", I do it so that I can have onion soup to serve people with to drive the winter chill from their bones not to increase my cooking skill. Still, it's nice to see a rewarding swirlie for all the roleplayed work, of course. *laughs*

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:24 pm
by LifeWonder
Dantagon Marescot wrote:Anyone who can hit 80% skill level in fighting in three days needs to get a life and a job. (Love yah Matt).
I'll consider you never posted that because I like you too, Dantagon. :>

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:29 pm
by Llama
Lily Crystal wrote:I do it so that I can have onion soup to serve people with to drive the winter chill from their bones not to increase my cooking skill.
We need a few more of you IMHO.

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:34 pm
by Fooser
Solution to PG: Make skill gain easier

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:37 pm
by Llama
Fooser wrote:Solution to PG: Make skill gain easier
Come on fooser, if the solution was that easy they would have implmented ages ago right?





Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:38 pm
by Vern Kron
Fooser wrote:Solution to PG: Make skill gain easier
Make it easier as your character is around longer, that way the longer your char is here, the easier it will be to continue getting skill, even if you have played that char for years but aren't that great at fighting, it should help as opposed to newbies being nearly instantly better.

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:41 pm
by Llama
You know vern, that's actually a pretty good idea.

The problem is:

--Nobody likes the slow skillgain
--Nobody wants new players to be better than them because they pged their *** off

Are those the problems in this discussion thread?

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:54 pm
by Karrock
I was think that game is rp but few players from both groups don't know what mean RP. If you playing RP games you imagine task for your char like be famous warrior.
PG player will fighting all without good idea of char and ignores other but not only him is a problem. RPmaniac will not even fight rabbit but will going everywhere and talking everyone how good he is and will be totally confused when somebody will try is he is so good how he talking.
(one of those morrons cursed my drunken char then I attacked him after telling him to apologize me and he wanted call GM because how he said 'he is wizard and it's not rp attacking wizards').

Everyone know that PGplayers are hmmm they are not normal but players what doing nothing in game shall know that they are just town paupers and in medieval times if warrior would kill any pauper he would get forvive from king if he fights for him to defend country or his causes. It's simple lazy persons are not needful for others. World is cruel.

EDIT: making skill gain easier it's completely stupid idea. If GM will make this idea that will not improve nothing. PG will be still better. I know better idea but on illarion that idea will never being see (cause is that it's to much more work, completely remaking game). At now situation in game is good we need good crafters, workers and warriors and paupers, beggars or smart traders and leaders what can rule other (At now I close do nothing just giving task for others).

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:13 am
by Caecilianus Cathari
Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Fooser wrote:Solution to PG: Make skill gain easier
Come on fooser, if the solution was that easy they would have implmented ages ago right?




They had it implemented before, it was called the old client, back when using the system had some recognizable fun.

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:10 am
by bdgdkay
I've got to say... I like Vern's idea

Also, I'm willing to bet the point of being able to fight a golem bare handed and not take much damage was aimed for me... but I'm sure anyone who has gotten into an engine based wrestling match with Altrix will be able to attest to the amount of #me's that I throw into wrestling matches.. very nice balance of rp and engine based fighting in those fights.

My two cents

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:36 am
by JonathanSmith
Dantagon Marescot wrote:That leads to the question, what is an acceptable powergamed level? Or better, what is an acceptable skill level? ;)
Powergaming is a rulebreak and not acceptable.

Every skill between 0 and 100 is acceptable, if the player uses the engine like it is intended.
Fooser wrote:Solution to PG: Make skill gain easier
QFT with a little addtion: only ONE skill cap per day, to give the RP based players a chance to gain comparable skills (and has a similar effect as Vern's proposal).

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:59 am
by Estralis Seborian
JonathanSmith wrote:Powergaming is a rulebreak and not acceptable.

Every skill between 0 and 100 is acceptable, if the player uses the engine like it is intended.
Also QFT ;-).
Fooser wrote:Solution to PG: Make skill gain easier
Nope. Minimize the influence of different playing styles on skillgain. That's the only way to "solve" the "problem", ask martin ;-). The question is: Do you want this? Do you want everyone have the same skillgain, regardless how often he/she clicks per hour? It is feasable and possible, but do you want online time become the most influencing factor on skillgain, not the click rate?

I'd like to, btw.

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:18 pm
by JonathanSmith
Make skill gain easier (1) PLUS only ONE skill cap per day (2).

(1) Allows reaching the skill cap faster. And we all know that gaining skill becomes very boaring after a while.

(2) Limits skill gain and adds a time factor. I neither want the online time nor the click rate as the most influencing factor as it is currently implemented.
I would like to reward those players who consequentely play their role (fighter, crafter, mage, whatever) over a longer time. I really dislike those upcoming uber-fighter/mage/crafter characters which gain skills rapidly but then dispappear after a short time.

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:29 pm
by Deuce
but do you want online time become the most influencing factor on skillgain, not the click rate?

No wai. That idea is bullcr4p.

Some people have lives and jobs and/or school(education) to attend. No offense to those who dont, I've been there yadda yadda... :wink:


Seriously I've seen some people log EARLY -early- and not log out for like 16 hours or more when I look at the site again, and this wont even be a once in a blue moon thing. It'll be those fanatics that'll benefit most... Unless there was a skill-cap for the amount of time you were in game for ofcourse :lol:

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:52 pm
by Avalyon el'Hattarr
Why repair something that is not broken? It's good as it is now. Ones gains skill accordinly to their time spent training. There's seers with the job to keep people from powergaming ;)

Training is hard work. Why give skill gain to those that play miniclip games and alt-tab in game from time to time to write a line of text or a #me? You can't measure the amount and quality of roleplay that each player does, so why make powerful a char that only sits arround and talks all day?

One more thing.. it was said before, but I will say it again. Your char's roleplay should be a reflection of his skills, not vice-versa. What kind of roleplay is that when you say your char is the most powerful mage/fighter arround when he can't even kill a fly? .. or the most brilliant crafter that has ever existed when he can't even smith a simple sword.
You want skills, train, train as if your char would of done. You can't become a master swordfighter only by talking about swords.

That's my opinion :)

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:39 pm
by ogerawa
Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:Why give skill gain to those that play miniclip games and alt-tab in game from time to time to write a line of text or a #me?
thanks for the tips :lol: :lol: :lol:

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:03 pm
by Julius
If you can't make me believe as the PO that your character is a bad ass warrior ("#me slashes the man"), then gtfo with that argument (not directed towards you Avalyon). I don't care if your maxed and can pvp anyone ig. If someone with average stats and maxed skills gets beat by that guy, but because of the technical difficulties (stats) is just average, skills really don't play a part.

I can name off the best warrior characters ig right now and I guarantee you, as an example, with better stats Julius could beat most of them because of his skills. Why can't he though? Because some people care about PVP so much that they've tested the system and made new tank characters within the last few months to correspond with the current system. Leaving pged characters with old stat builds obsolete. And therefore, if you use your same logic, Julius should be considered one of the best warriors ig currently. Yet, he's not even top 30.

So, skills don't mean shit. Just because you can pg a character in a week with maxed intell with this new system doesn't make your character a well played warrior. If you can't rp your warrior, because this is a rp game, and relie solely on your skills and short #mes to make your character awesome, then you certainly don't have my respect.

I can tell you this though, those types of people are what I search for if I ever have a guild ig. They are always the ones to attack someone you dislike with little to no rp. :|

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:54 pm
by Avalyon el'Hattarr
Your points are good man, but you cant say that since your char is an "old" char he should be one of the best warriors in the game, and also you cant say that he was good with the old system, he should be now.
The things change, I am sure that when a new fighting system will be made, the current hotshots will become nothing and a new breed of super fighters will emerge as it always has. The system is evolving, but sadly a char can not, unless you redo him. Look at the simple longbow, per example.. it was one of the greatest discoveries of the medieval times, used to instantly kill fully armoured knights. But put a longbow guy in a shootdown with a AK47 guy and see what happens :)

And about the little to no RP, you are right, but that can't be spoken for all.There will always be people that roleplay good and people that roleplay bad. There are GMs to monitor these things.

But my points were about something else. Let's pretend for a second that our chars are living beings and they eat, drink, sleep, whatever. So, as a living being, if you want to learn something, you must practice it. If you stay all day arround eating, drinking and chatting, you won't get anything more than a beer belly. Some will say here "yes but I write in my char's background that he's a great fighter, etc" why do I need to train now? it's simple.. because there can always be someone that can write "i'm a better fighter than you". Skills are there with a purpose and the purpose is exactly to avoid endless clusterfuck scenarios of "Mine is bigger than yours".

Just my honest opinion. :)

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:58 pm
by Julius
You completely by pass your previous thought. If characters reflect their skills, then as you said, Julius should be at least top 10. I never made the argument that he should be top 10 on account of him being an old character. Your entire argument is bogus.

But I still want to snow ball. :)

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:02 pm
by Avalyon el'Hattarr
Gah.. wasnt thinking about attributes at the time :P

Ok, Julius should be a fighting god :-O:-O

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:03 pm
by Julius
Then I destroyed your argument on how skills should reflect how good your characters are at fighting. Because, obviously, as shown by ig actions there not. If skills do not reflect a warrior's ability through hours of training, because of stat builds, yet they were amazing fighters for months.. then despite the new system changes, if they are rped well enough then they should be still considered great. Why? Because if they are still rped as such, then it's not like they woke up horrible one morning.

And if you say yes to that, because I obviously screwed your statement, then you'll also have to agree to the fact that rped fighting characters can also be considered decent. :|

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:45 pm
by Youchimitchu
Okay from what I read, I see that the main argument is that max intel chars can pg a warrior in about a week I know this to b true as my knight has fought against a char that was recreated and in a short span is already unable to truly take the char down even though he has much higher attributes physically .
My solution is simple to understand not sure about scripting
High intel chars can only be high intel chars by having studied as high intel is a mage attribute so naturally they should suffer physically and I'm not saying attribute wise I mean skill wise a high intel char should suffer a skill cap sooner then others I'll explain here.

A person with say max intel for his or her race their slashing, parry , dodge, concussion, puncture should not be allowed to go above 60% poisoning , tactics should both be allowed to go to 100% as they are indeed well need smarts to do . They should also suffer weaker hits ((phy)) and slower movements . However should have a much better resistance to magic .

Now before someone argues that it could be street smarts do not street smarts gets cut off IMHO at 13 intel 14-15 your a learned person anything above 15 you've spent enough time in the classroom to suffer physically .

This also means of course mages cannot train themselves very high in combat and this I do not find troubling as mages should not be extremely well endowed sword fighters or fist fighters. A mage should not be able to punch a Demon skeleton to death with maxed fist fighting and dodge.

As well a Warrior with maxed strength and what not should NOT be able to do a thesis on biomedical Conservations , But should be able to learn to tear apart another warrior or tackle a mage and hope hes fast enough for it.

So this idea would end the idea of your argument over the max intel pwrgamers. I am willing to hear out your rants flames and discuss unless the mods want this in another topic.

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:54 pm
by Pellandria
I think you mix something up here, attributs are not gained trougth training but "natural" given abilities, that means a stupid person could still know alot, simply because he can memorize and work on himself(skills) while other people jsut got a genetic code that gives them a natural better understanding of things.

So it could just be, as always, reduced by skillgain or reduction of actually skillbonus and increase of attributbonus, after all, when someone spens some points into int, they will be loosing those points by strength and speed.

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:00 pm
by Youchimitchu
Pellandria I did not mean it in that sense the mere idea that a person is born that smart or that strong is foolish
It depends on how they grew up show me a baby that can lift 30 iron ore rocks
while that kid trains his strength as he grows his natural strength would increase as he grows the idea that a person could be beyond intelligent upon birth is impossible the attributes from what I see them I could be wrong are what the person has after having already grown up his physical and mental abilities already set for his life now he can blossom into what he was meant to be

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:05 pm
by Pellandria
Still you have a genetical code given from your birth, one who you cannot change, if your body is fragile or if you chronically ill you can't change that, you might be able to overcome something with training, but you cannot escape "your body", sure you can't lift something when you are born, yet you posses talents and a certaint degree of attributs, some come naturally, some can be shaped with training, but you can't change your "core".

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:17 pm
by Youchimitchu
I understand that idea But at the same time anything that happens to you along the way of your life changes that say a man with a decent strength and intel had his eyes removed? he loses natural strength now as he can no longer function and he cant keep up his studies his mind will falter ,

A young man of a peasant family works in the fields all his life giving him alot of strength however his father is abusive and mental be raids him constantly leaving him weak willed , he then however sneaks daily lessons from a mage that lives not far from him and learns to read and write leaving him intelligent , so hes a healthy strong intelligent young man However because of his upbringing as well hes weak willed and unsure of himself leaving him vulnerable to others to control .

My argument to attributes is that they can change based on the upbrining in a large amount of cases YES its true some things are unavoidable but they can also be alterd along the way of his life.

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:23 pm
by Pellandria
This is why we play adult chars here and not children ; ).

Fact remains, your upbrining might influence you in a degree, but it still does not change whats given form the start, someone who was beaten might be crushed under its weigth or it might raise him to be even stronger, enduring the beating instead of breaking under it.