Discussion about PG.

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Post by Hawkmoon » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:58 pm

Discussion about PG.

Hello there all!

I just have to start this discussion because of the opinions I have run up to more than twice since I started this game... The hatred of those who PG.

With PG (power gaming) people mean those who practice one or many skills as much as they can.

Those who are against this normally don't like practicing like that (but who does???) and think these skills should be role played instead.

I think this is wrong. Looking at this game it have a game engine after all and skills do exist. I don't care about those who RP that they are great warriors or musicians, but then there will be problem as soon as the game engine must be used.

Sure... Most of us who PG don't RP as much as possible while doing this but fact is that when one has reached the skills suitable for the char most actually stops and then starts to RP. This is important that it is ok I think since I believe it would look really strange if the orc warlord gets beaten by a gnoll for example.

I have been PG-ing my char a lot to make him a great warrior simply because that is the way he is. An extremily devoted, idealistic, up and coming and probably talented knight who try to follow the chivalric code as good as he can. He has been taught to work hard and so on...

Why I did choose this role for him? I am a student and have actually found a way to PG at the same time as I study. I study next to the computer every time it is time to wait IG. This time would not be used playing at all if I did not PG during this time and don't make me RP less than anyone else really. If I had not had this time I would probably not have chosen this role for my char.

Of course I "fight the evil" sometimes else as well, but not nearly as much as I RP. After all RP is what I like with this game - I just don't want to RP a char only. I want skills to back the RP up and since there are no way to gain these skills before I simply had to get IG.

My point with this is that I don't think it is fair to see people PG getting treated like worse role players. We simply think differently. Of course it is not that social and much of RP when PG but that is really the only way to train for most people so as long as it works like that I simply say that everyone should accept this. If you want to be sure you are considered as a great warrior - then you need to work for it. If you want to RP that you are a great warrior you simply RP that as good as you can - but I must say that your char can get in trouble if needed to use the game engine. I mean... After all - who decide which of the greatest warriors in the world that will win otherwise if both players of the chars want that their char will win the duel?

All I want to say is that if "powergamers" accept you who only RP - please accept us as well. It is a part of the game and if you really dislike it - please try to change the way the game works instead. As it is now PG is actually a vital part of the game and most chars who has some kind of profession or so IG actually try to PG more or less I would say just to make the char work well IG.

Not that fun for the one ordering a great armor IG to get a RPed armor for example... =)

If you want to have great skills on your char then I simply think that the char should work hard as well. After all - there are not that few people around that don't dream about being the best warrior, mage, carpenter and so... And everybody can't be the best... And face facts.. If a char IG is best on Gobaith in something - is that not kinda strange if that person don't practice a lot?

My char is one of the better fighters now but will probably never be the best. I don't care about that to be honest. I am just glad that my char is as good as he is and still continue working hard. People get irretated in him working that hard IG as well as people gets irritated outside the game. And when thinking of it I would say that is how it works in the society as well IRL. Very devoted and skilled people IRL often irritates people after all. This is ok. I don't think this should be considered as worse RP than those who don't PG though.

In my case I may not be the that good of a role player but I do my best and I think the game is great fun. But most important of all - my lack of great RP is not because of the PG but for my lack of ability. Simple as that.

I know... Long thread... Have probably been discussed before... But still... Would be nice to hear your view of this.

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Post by Nitram » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:01 pm

There is only ONE way of powergaming.

And that is skilling while ignoring all other players around you and not reacting on their roleplay. That includes GMs that want to interupt your skilling sessions if they find you.

Also its forbidden to skill until you reach the cap and stay ingame idleing until you got rid of it.

But beside this I fail to see anything that is a problem.

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Post by Hawkmoon » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:05 pm

Nitram wrote:There is only ONE way of powergaming.

And that is skilling while ignoring all other players around you and not reacting on their roleplay. That includes GMs that want to interupt your skilling sessions if they find you.

Also its forbidden to skill until you reach the cap and stay ingame idleing until you got rid of it.

But beside this I fail to see anything that is a problem.
Yes, that is good to know the real definition of powergaming. The unofficial is a bit different though. But you are talking about the forbidden form of powergaming and am talking about the allowed but yet disliked form of powergaming. =)

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Post by Keikan Hiru » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:40 pm

When you are "studying" as you discribe it, how responsive are you to ingame events?
And how many valuable items does your character carry at this time?
Most importantly, where do you usualy park your character for such exessive training lessons?

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Post by Hawkmoon » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:23 pm

Keikan Hiru wrote:When you are "studying" as you discribe it, how responsive are you to ingame events?
And how many valuable items does your character carry at this time?
Most importantly, where do you usualy park your character for such exessive training lessons?
I am very responsive. I sit with the screen in front of me and loo down. I usually see as soon as anything new comes up on the screen right away.

How many valuable items he carry? Not much really. But you could try kill him if that is what you are thinking of. =)

And not sure what you mean by park but he usually fight enemies under the graveyard.

And is that not a bit off topic?

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Post by Rorukh » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:23 pm

There is nothing to add to Nitrams answer!

Using the engine, often called powergaming, is welcomed.

Why should the developers still work on that game, if nobody uses it's features?

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Post by Deuce » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:44 pm

No, you are right.. It isnt powergaming. Its powergaining, and this sort of behaviour is called obsession, and quite frankly can lead to problems :P .

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Post by Hawkmoon » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:49 pm

Deuce wrote:No, you are right.. It isnt powergaming. Its powergaining, and this sort of behaviour is called obsession, and quite frankly can lead to problems :P .
Haha!That we should start call it yes. Powergaining. To seperate the both kind of actions. =)

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Post by LifeWonder » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:15 pm

I haven't read your whole wall of text, but I agree with the first few paragraphs I read.

I (used) to powergame back when I had lots of time and no school, and when I was still a brand new mage.

What I would do is head outside of town (not to spam with spells #me) and keep killing pigs/sheep/zombies until I capped.

If someone came by, of course I would stop and roleplay with them for a moment, then carry on skilling while slipping a fancy #me here and there and respond to them of course.

Most of the time though no one would appear and once I would cap, I would head back to town to concentrate on roleplay really. Most of the time I'd find no one and just log out of boredom.

I stopped skilling whatsoever for a long time, now I've started a little again because my last rune requires a rather high amount of skills. So yes, I PG for an hour or an hour and half then head back straight to town to RP. Even better, most of the time I bring someone with me to the skilling area. It's more fun that way.

So all in all, it doesn't really matter if you PG as long as you answer people who come and try to RP with you.

As for people who roleplay their character being great fighters etc. etc. but don't train at all because they don't like powergaming, well, too bad for them to be honest, but I don't recognize them when it comes to engine. My character spent hours practicing his magery and reading books, I'm not going to make him get his ass kicked just because someone wants to RP an uber skilled warrior without actually training them.

I will however give them credits if their roleplay is creative and elaborate and will probably cooperate if they're setting up a roleplaying scene.

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Post by Caecilianus Cathari » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:41 pm

Also its forbidden to skill until you reach the cap and stay ingame idleing until you got rid of it.
Considering most rpers sit around ingame idling, I dont see how this could be enforced.

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Post by Avalyon el'Hattarr » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:47 pm

LifeWonder wrote:As for people who roleplay their character being great fighters etc. etc. but don't train at all because they don't like powergaming, well, too bad for them to be honest, but I don't recognize them when it comes to engine. My character spent hours practicing his magery and reading books, I'm not going to make him get his ass kicked just because someone wants to RP an uber skilled warrior without actually training them.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:13 pm

I think people more or less just get upset when they have been playing for years and have attempted to balance their rp and pging or don't have the time to sit in the yard for hours on end to hit cap, ie, have lives. Then the older player gets upset when what they may have taken 2 or 3 years in doing gets surpased in about a month.

It is grand that you want your character to be good (and in my opinion he is probably in the top 3 or 5 skilled fighters). Though at this point it makes your character seem one track minded. As they say, all work and no play makes Johnny a very boring boy.

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Post by Julius » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:28 pm

Dantagon Marescot wrote:I think people more or less just get upset when they have been playing for years and have attempted to balance their rp and pging or don't have the time to sit in the yard for hours on end to hit cap, ie, have lives. Then the older player gets upset when what they may have taken 2 or 3 years in doing gets surpased in about a month.

It is grand that you want your character to be good (and in my opinion he is probably in the top 3 or 5 skilled fighters). Though at this point it makes your character seem one track minded. As they say, all work and no play makes Johnny a very boring boy.
I go along with this to an extent. This is probably one of the more truthful things Dantagon has wrote, because of the simple fact that some players actually DO find rp in a tavern more fun then watching a red circle around a skeleton. However, I've seen a lot of people get on the boards and use this excuse as to why there character isn't skilled, and those same people get in msn and ask me HOW to powergame their character. Pging can be boring, yet if done right, quick and effective.

Anyway, I play a character with high skills (albeit with horrible attributes) and I never try to throw that weight around unless someone does something that I feel they need pked for. I don't see any reason why a pged character should be more revered as warrior then one without maxed skills. I've seen more of these highly pged characters who can barely rp (marked by un-capitalized letters, #me nods, and "do you want a duel?") then I have from the community who doesn't pg and actually play warriors that are good.

My feeling is this, if you can pg a character, then so be it. Engine wise you can dominate. But until you can show me you can rp your skills, you don't have my respect. It's a RP game, ya know. Perhaps you could spend some time pging that skill as well (not directed towards anyone in particular)?
Last edited by Julius on Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Hawkmoon » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:28 pm

Dantagon Marescot wrote:I think people more or less just get upset when they have been playing for years and have attempted to balance their rp and pging or don't have the time to sit in the yard for hours on end to hit cap, ie, have lives. Then the older player gets upset when what they may have taken 2 or 3 years in doing gets surpased in about a month.

It is grand that you want your character to be good (and in my opinion he is probably in the top 3 or 5 skilled fighters). Though at this point it makes your character seem one track minded. As they say, all work and no play makes Johnny a very boring boy.
Well there you go! I have never claimed he is a funny boy. Read about my char and it is pretty obvious he works really hard and that is the way he is. He pretty much live by his duties just like many athletes live by their sports. Just as IRL when someone is working a lot a char in Illarion can do that. Not that strange - is it? And who says he can't develop?

Many of those who have had longer conversations with my char knows why he works harder than most people.

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Post by Llama » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:32 pm

Dantagon is so right :)

Estralis had proposed a good solution to that...

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Post by Ssar'ney » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:33 pm

Despite the definition given from the staff, I consider all time I spent ingame to gain skill and don´t do any rp as powergaming.
I don´t think that a bit of that so called "skilling" is bad, but that someone who can take down a golem with and without weapons and does not even take serious damage there and kills a red skeleton wih ease still is far away from what is needed to be an acceptable warrior who is close to the "top" is a bit harsh.

I remember that wen I started the game really noone was able to kill a red, they were quite the most feared monsters, now it seems to me that nearly everyone carrying a weapon does not have too much problems with them, with that the ammount of time necessary to play a warrior increased quite much to an ammount that is too much in my eyes.

Finally I´d say that a solution like the one of Estralis would be nice to stop the need for pg.

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Post by ogerawa » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:48 pm

Julius wrote:... I've seen more of these highly pged characters who can barely rp (marked by un-capitalized letters, #me nods ...
i wonder what's wrong with those.... :roll: :lol:

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Post by Julius » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:53 pm

I didn't say there was anything "wrong" with that. Simply, if you compared the rp level of the large "east gate duel pg group" with the group that follows the same doctrine as PO Dantagon, there is a clear difference in RP levels. If I offended anyone, for once, I am sowwie. :(

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Post by Hawkmoon » Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:00 pm

Julius wrote:I didn't say there was anything "wrong" with that. Simply, if you compared the rp level of the large "east gate duel pg group" with the group that follows the same doctrine as PO Dantagon, there is a clear difference in RP levels. If I offended anyone, for once, I am sowwie. :(
I can only speak for myself... I do my best when it comes to RP. I have a language barrier that makes it harder though and that limits me quite a lot really. This have nothing to do with my PGing.

And Dantegon Marescot wrote he had a nice balanced char... My char is not balanced. He is a fighter only pretty much when looking skillwise . Why? That is what he is. He is no crafter! He buy things from crafters when he need it. So if you balanced char take all balancing time and put that into one skill you would probably look pretty much like a PG-char.

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Post by Athian » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:58 pm

Re: Discussion about PG.

Lennier wrote:To be serious. Why anyone allways makes such proposals to switch Illarion in a chat-rp?

Everyone who played this game serval weeks/months should notice, that it is not a Chat-RP and it never will be.

It is engine based. It is graphical based. These two parts are the key of the environment of Illarion and its physical laws, beside of its story and the players.

Who ever act outside of the supported borders, acts in a grey zone, at own risk that he get ignored.

Who ever plays Illarion as chat-RP and wonders, why he get victim of *ctrl+click* of an other player, has an at least mistaken view of this game.
I think this quote from Lennier basically sums up the topic nicely, i agree with it completely.

As to PGing. dont' like it don't do it. No one forces you to gain skill, But as stated above don't complain when you get your ass handed to you by someone who's trained there skills, or you can't make sellable items because you spend more time rping your crafting prowless then using the system. It's admirable but i wouldn't advice it. This isn't an RP game, its a graphical game that promotes RP. It's best that players don't forget that

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Post by Retlak » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:25 pm

Roleplay engine ---------- Roleplay + Skilling engine ---------- Skilling engine

Some chat RP thing ----------------Illarion-------------------------Runescape



Now you can all clearly see where Illarion is.

-Matt

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Post by Julius » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:40 pm

I believe that the game is more of a roleplay game then it is a engine, Athian.

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Post by Athian » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:59 pm

You can believe whatever you'd like fact is the engine does exist and the Dev's put hard work into making them. They're not going anywhere ever. PGing for sheer bullying sake (just to push others around) is BS IMO, but i find absoluting nothing wrong with using the systems for what they were meant to be used for.

PGing has really nothing to do with it. it's the RP or lack there of thats the problem. I don't blame peoples ability to powergame there characters and use the engine for there inability to RP. The two don't really connect except as one being an excuse for the lack of the other.

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Post by Llama » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:37 pm

I really dislike when discussions like this come up.

It always boils down to: "Illarion has skill systems and the ability to ctrl click .: we should use them. Engine killing is just as good as RPing it out"

You know what Illarion also has? Systems to ban people. So lets use them all the time :) - same argument.

--

I always saw illarion as being a great game because of its roleplay - it should be the main thing.

Let me put it this way. If the aim of illarion was to gain a lot of skills and use the engine - then why are skill points 'hidden' ?

If you wanted a game where the aim was to gain skills and engine, then you can play ANY single player RPG game. Illarion isn't particularly snazzy in its graphics (though I like them to be honest). Nor does it have a flawless and balanced skill system (although its being worked on). The only 'saving grace' it has is the RP and its community.

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Post by LifeWonder » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:57 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:It always boils down to: "Illarion has skill systems and the ability to ctrl click .: we should use them. Engine killing is just as good as RPing it out"

You know what Illarion also has? Systems to ban people. So lets use them all the time :) - same argument.
I'll pretend you never said that because I like you llama man.

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Post by Damien » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:02 pm

The fact is that skills are now, compared to older times, quite hard to raise. You cannot PG your skills up to maximum within two to three days or a week anymore.

The reason for this change was longtime motivation. To give players a goal to reach : higher skills.
This of course doesn't serve the RP, but the motivation of some players. There is a balance to find between those two : Many players, those who like skilling, would possibly get bored of illa after a while if skills were as easy to obtain as back then.
And easy skilling is no warranty for RP !

The other side is that too long "skilling" times will "scare" people away who want to RP instead of skilling whenever they can. A balance has to be found between those things. If you're actively playing for just a bit per day over a long time, your skills will go up, if they're not downed by your death(s), if that is still how it goes.

In fact, i can remember that it kinda demotivated me of playing when i saw that in regular play with some regular legal powergaming, i needed about four weeks to get back to the (magic) skill level where i was after dieing one time. But since then, alot of changes have been made to the system, so i have no idea how it is now. ;)
Last edited by Damien on Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Lennier » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:05 pm

Nitram ready told everything that was needed. But here, the links to the rules once more:

http://illarion.org/illarion/us_rules.php (english)
http://illarion.org/illarion/de_rules.php (german)


And like stated anywhere else too (Athian, you can add this next time too :wink:):

I would prefer a punishment against all who complaint about "powergaming" (in the old mean) of other players, instead to punish the palyers, who only use our engine in fair kind.

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Post by Revan » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:15 pm

Lllama, this will happen if I see anyone pking without proper roleplay. As far as this topic goes Nitram should have closed it after his comment for the essay written by Hawk has been answered. These topics come up every once in a while and I am just glad this one hasn't turned into a flame war.

From a GM stand point I will tell you this. When I log in I become invisible then check every person online, so, if you are PGing get ready to rp. If you are afk regaining the cap get ready to be told you are breaking game rules.

Here is what I would like to see, community, as much as you work on making your skills better you should equally work on making your RP better. Expand your vocabulary, learn, and feed off other characters and your character I assure you will become quite popular.

Good Day.

~~Revan

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Post by Fianna Heneghan » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:08 am

This discussion has been going on as long as I've been ig and I'm sure much longer. I never understood the divide between the "so-called" RPers and the "so-called" PGers. Both groups RP and both groups PG - with the concession that one group PGs more efficiently than the other. The quality of RP from both groups is pretty equivalent from what I have seen except that the group skilling their characters can back up their RP with the game engine.

I'll defend myself with RP any day of the week if you want to challenge me. I'll also stand against pure RPers who can't be arsed to use the game engine and show them the way it's done. I don't see why this discussion goes on and on. You can do it to the extreme one way or the other and miss half of what the game offers or you can take advantage of both aspects of the game and have it all. :D

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Post by Julius » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:30 am

I just wanted to add a simple notation to further my previous post. As an example, the first 9 months that played, I fell under that same group that complained that they'd rather rp then PG. However, it was actually laziness of the thought of pging that kept me from walking to the crypt. Once doing so, it only took me a few short weeks, with some great rp experiences in the places that you'd least expect it to reach an acceptable pged level. Not a tank, mind you. :|

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