A 'strange' idea for skillups

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:25 pm

So umm, this proposal aims to stop the 'jack of all trades' thing which everyone seems to hate. Its a 'different' idea...

The reason people JoaT is because:

A) At higher levels skilling up the main craft is as painful as sticking your tongue in a blender
B) At higher levels you require more items which other crafts can make
C) Your craft yields no profits at all.

Now, Estralis appears to be working on C, so lets focus on A and B.
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The skill VS click graph looks something like a log graph. Pretty easy at the beginning, impossibly hard at the end.

The proposal is... to change the log graph into something of a tanh graph. Make the first 30 points or so INCREDIBLY HARD to get, the next few rather easy, and the last 30 as hard as they are now.

This way, you don't just go "Ok, I need handles, I don't know any carpenters, but how hard can levelling up in carpentry be?"
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A foreseeable problem is newplayers trying to start off and finding the crafting to be brutal. Instead I suggest a flag is used, which triggers when a skill reaches 30 or so - and this should only count for a primary weapon skill and the crafting skills, no other. As long as the flag stays down, you level up as usual.

Hmmm, dunno what everyone else thinks.

Discuss.

ADDED:

http://www.dplot.com/functions/tanh.png

Just incase you don't know what a tanh looks like. Obviously It'd be shifted horiztionatally and vertically.

ogerawa · Post by **ogerawa** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:52 pm

Ahm... fighting needs 1 attacking style, dodge, parry and tactics. 1 of them flagged the rest won't really progress? What about the 5 magic skills?

It would probably stop the new chars to go jack of all trades, but what about the current ones? Also... if the flag is down at 30, they can train everything up to 29 and then they only need to work on 1 level instead of 30?

Just some possibilities

But then again, i wonder how many jack of all trades that's actually creating problems to the economy (rather than out of jealousy because a char can do lots of things on his/her own). Being a jack of all trades myself, i only do it for fun and also because it's convenient. But as of late, i barely use much of the skills.

I also wondered how many people that hate the jack of all trades... actually a pure 1 skill crafter

Somehow i think we need more crafters (not smith) that actually around and active rather than a new system. Just my opinion... i guess... *shrugs*

ADDED:
Also because at higher level skills, making lower/easy items doesn't give skills. Another reason why high level carpenter doesn't want to make handles?

Manuelman · Post by **Manuelman** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:12 pm

Love the idea.

Edit: Plus, what about someone having to teach you at some point? It would encourage rp and introduce the crafter/fighter in the society.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:46 pm

ogerawa wrote:Ahm... fighting needs 1 attacking style, dodge, parry and tactics. 1 of them flagged the rest won't really progress? What about the 5 magic skills?

"and this should only count for a primary weapon skill and the crafting skills, no other"

If you want to be a fighter, you pick one weapon and you're off

the rest won't be slowed.

It would probably stop the new chars to go jack of all trades, but what about the current ones? Also... if the flag is down at 30, they can train everything up to 29 and then they only need to work on 1 level instead of 30?

The 'current' are a problem, but joat never get very far anyway, because the amount of time/resources you need at greater levels will stop them.

The last part of abuse is a problem, but I suppose you could put a 'total skill gained' check as well to prevent that.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:50 pm

Manuelman wrote:what about someone can teach you at some point for a bonus?

fixed.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:00 pm

I have to correct something: The current learning curve is more or less a ln(ln)-thingy. I have a plot here that compares the learning curve of the current and the old (before 2005 I think) skill system:

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/7867/skillgainrt0.png

Edit:

Another plot, this is just about the shape of the curves, not the values.

The numbers shown and the curve scaling are just examples, it is not like the current skill system is just slower or something.

A tanh-thingy like shown isn't an option for me since new players want swirlies, too. And honestly, I do not want to see anybody realize anti-anything-measures but pro-something-measures. Jacks of all trades are not hated generally, I am pretty happy that I can play a fighting carpenter or a beer brewing miner. Illarion offers so many options to draw out a role, do not take away those options, please.

The reason why jacks of all trades are "favourable" for meta-gamers is obvious. Sure, you can level up from 1-30 in the same time as you level up from 80-81, but this also yields that somebody with high skills is somebody special. Focussing on one skill can yield products nobody else can craft. The crafting scripts do not take this into account in every case, but this is nothing that cannot be achieved!

I say: Switch back to a ln-thingy (=exp for the needed actions). This will result in a more or less linear increase in the beginning and a hard to job to achieve lvls beyond ~60. Currently, you level up like hell up to ~lvl 20-30 and then, speed becomes slow as hell with speed close to zero above ~lvl 70. If you want, I can send you a small snippet how I imagine a nice skill system, but it might be confusing without proper explainations.

ogerawa · Post by **ogerawa** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:02 pm

With a different system for crafting and fighting category, since crafting is 1 skill and fighting you can have 1 primary skill + dodge, parry,tactics and flag system, sounds like it's a major change instead of just a tweak of the current system? Although i'm not so sure how current one works for sure ^^;;; *asks for an enlightment from the higher ups* XD

By the way, what about magic and druid? All skills level up as usual? Tied with fighting as well perhaps? Just some clarification for a better detail

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:25 pm

So umm, this proposal aims to stop the 'jack of all trades' thing which everyone seems to hate.

I would first suggest an initial poll lasting a few days for older PO's that no longer come to the site that often how many REALLY object to the "jack of all trades". Having a figher/mage/druid originally crafter among others. I have never objected to a "jack of all trades" and in fact my fighter can rarely find a pure crafter to buy armor from. Being one of the crafters that don't earn copper for the profession, the "jack of all trades" has nothing to do with tailoring. The only thing I see objected to is specifically a fighter making their own armor, is this correct?

Why is this objected to? It is theorized that the smith can earn more copper if a fighter can't make their own? How many fighters can make their own armor? The proposal seems to generalize an idea without being specific on the facts and a system in game is discussed assuming a change is needed or wanted. The game already has a steep learning curve, more then a lot of games, I wouldn't want to 1. change the entire system for one aspect that may or may not work in other parts of the game. nor 2. change all skill systems to solve one problem.

If you want to be a fighter, you pick one weapon and you're off the rest won't be slowed.

I hope this is not talking of tactics and dodge also. Whatever, the new fighter system I have been reading about seems to be able to allow specialization of weapons better in the system.

Not discussing the RP aspect at all. People play Illarion because they enjoy the roleplay, and yes, some enjoy skilling, others want to be good at all things. I don't think it is right to deny them this aspect of the game. You make a figher char... players get attached to a "main" char and go off on another direction or even decided they want to try doing everything the game has to offer. Not all players want to make a new char for a new profession.

The 'current' are a problem, but joat never get very far anyway, because the amount of time/resources you need at greater levels will stop them.

Stop them from being a "jack of all trades"? This quote may be better if added: ".....stop them from playing." Have you thought that some of these "jack of all trades" older chars may simply slow their playing in game because they have hit a plateau with what they want to accomplish for that char? Then if you nerf the system so there is NO WAY anyone can accomplish it, you are discouraging some from wanting to play anymore. I am not saying the PO's get in game simply to skill, but a lot skill and RP at the same time, or a lot of the older chars I have seen in game and I have NEVER seen a new char be a "jack of all trades" only an older char.

Quite a few of these older chars never play.. a few rarely. I have seen some in game however and have GREATLY enjoyed the RP at the time. I guess what I am trying to say though it may not be too effective. Don't discourage these older players from playing which I think squelching the "jack of all trades" would in the end. Let players be on the fantasy Illarion game something they may not can be in RL and encourage older players to want to come back to the game.

Salhari · Post by **Salhari** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:56 pm

I do not like the jack of all trades for a pretty simple reason. I play Braydar, a warrior/smith/carpenter/lumberjack/miner because of the fact that i can -not- find people to buy ingots, handles, or other needed pieces from, at least not at a price that i could afford. I think the system needs a tweak in one way or another making it so that there is some form of interaction needed, and, there is a NPC who can provide the materials needed for a low cost. This NPC should be limited on the number of items he will sell to a player over a given amount of time, but, i think he is needed for those players who play during the "off hours" when no one else is around. This will get rid of characters using skills like mine, which honestly i do not like, because having to go out, cut down the wood, make the handles, walk to the mines, get the ore, walk to the other mines, get the coal, smelt it down, then put it all together to make just a couple copper does not work very well imho. That process i just described takes a long time to play out, and thus in return, totally kills the time i want to use for training of other skills, or for RP in that matter. That is the main complaint i have against the current system and the "joat" thing everyone is talking about.

Salhari · Post by **Salhari** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:58 pm

edit- sorry, hit the wrong button, can someone please delete this post? thank you!

Manuelman · Post by **Manuelman** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:00 pm

Pharse said:

Manuelman wrote:
what about someone can teach you at some point for a bonus?

fixed.

That's not wat i said, what I said was:

Plus, what about someone having to teach you at some point? It would encourage rp and introduce the crafter/fighter in the society.

I recognize your idea is better, but don't fix my words, they don't need it.

Edit: and, i agree with Salhari. It's not that i want to limit the "joat" If anyone wants do to it, ok, spend the time you want, but it's that I don't want to be the "joat" and I am forced to because I can't find a lumberjack to give me raw wood, or a smith to sell the handles to, or someone who needs a plate for making food, or, if i'm a taylor, anyone that's wanting to buy my clothing, or anyone selling me the handles, if i'm a smith. It's true there aren't many people online at any given time (i've seen 30 tops so far) but, if moreon, everyone is making his wares and fighting his battles, it kills rp. Okey, you can still talk around the fire about your character's past and start conversations, but what about economic-driven roleplay?

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:52 pm

We have a pastafarian now?

Manuelman · Post by **Manuelman** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:33 pm

Owwww, Yep, I think we have.