What do you think?

Bidukan · Post by **Bidukan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:43 am

Previous story: Some months ago, my char Bidukan was chosen to acomplish a quest. To make it short, the 'messenger of Irmorom' gave him a holy artefact, which Bidukan should deliver to Chester~, leader of Goldburg, as signal of bless to the new dwarven town. After some dangerous tries, the task could not been done, and later on Bidukan left the island. Is worth to mention that Bidukan faced many risks and it was damn fun. It has to be said: Bidukan hated Chester~ and the task was probably given to him as a test (Therefor, there was the chance he keeps the artefact).

Recent story: The 'messenger of Irmorom' visited Bidukan and ordered give the artefact back, which Bidukan -seemed- started to do. He pretended to seek the Artefact in Varshikar, but just wanted to gain some time, so he could seduce an elfess who was walking with him, and think what he could do with the artefact (you know, there was chance he keeps the artefact). It was all into RP, the elfess adviced him to do the right thing and so on. The 'messenger of Irmorom' said there would come a Reign of Fire if Bidukan keeps the artefact, which sounded cool. As Bidukan was taking some time giving the artefact back and it was probably around the 6 am in Germany and our GM (the messenger) was probably tired and sleepy, he suddenly, out of all RP, snaped his fingers and stolen the artefact out of Bidukan's depot.

Complain: I know Gods and their messengers can do whatever they want, but it was damn bored and frustating the way this GM chose to act. If Bidukan took much time (20 minutes) was because it's PO wanted to do it in a fun and RP way. And if you think Bidukan was going to keep the artefact, ok, punish him, spread a plague or make whatever RP action, but is not fair to take the artefact outta his depot. I had alot of RP ideas to do with this artefact.

I would like to know what do you think.

PO Bidukan.

Kaila Galathil Travinus · Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:43 am

I think oocly once the quest is over if the GM wants the artifact back you should give it back

sometimes artifacts aren't wanted back, but this is in relation to the original quest and what artifact it is.....the artifact may also be needed to continue the quest or do another quest... RP wise a god was angry at you and took the artifact. You may have had other RP plans for the artifact....did you submit the plans/quest for GM ideas or approval to continue the quest? It sounds to me like the quest was over *shrugs*

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:22 am

I think you should have talked to the GM as it was obvious that s/he had planned that your char returned the artifact or you made your char give it back.

Aegohl · Post by **Aegohl** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:57 am

I wasn't the GM in question, however, from what I know of the case this guy's story is pretty one-sided. He requested that we go through the trouble of scripting a special name on the axe, wasting precious time and game resources so that he could make tons of gold ingame by selling a priceless artifact that he got for failing a quest.... right, I'm sure that Bragon would be down with that.

The GM in question was also not a quest GM, but rather a developer who did the quest only as a nice way of saying to the recent settlement that the staff welcomes them and accepts them. I can't imagine what dangers are involved in a carry and deliver quest, but eh.. I won't speculate.

I'm a bit perturbed by your behavior, guy. I've made it a point of peacemaking and providing interesting alternatives whenever players have come to me through the proper channels to complain about something they don't like. Instead you yell at us over !gm and then on the board. Since you believe this is a public matter, I'll say very publically that you should consider this a warning that this behavior won't lead to anywhere nicely.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:22 am

What I think about it is that if you're part of a quest, then as soon as the quest is over , it should revert to what you were before.

If you were given an overpowered quest char for example, you should have it removed.

If you were given a very very expensive artifact, it should be removed from you.

So it can be fair to the other people who don't have messengers of Irmorom giving them expensive items which they then flog to become rich.

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:31 pm

At the end of the day if you are dealing with anything that is not normally obtainable in the game (pushed chars, quest items, etc) The devs and GM's always have first say. You're not the first, there has been 10's of "quest chosen chars" through the years and they've all lost what they gained for the quest. Feel happy that you were even chosen out of all the other people to have fun while it lasted.

Mesha · Post by **Mesha** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:21 pm

If you were given a very very expensive artifact, it should be removed from you.

Unless GMs decide otherwise.

Pellandria · Post by **Pellandria** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:41 pm

You are the one who wanted to sell the artefact or?

Sorry but what I read here is only a complainet about somone who tried to make quick silvers from leftover quest artefacts, you should be lucky enough, if your char just lost the item and not alot more than that.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:58 pm

Mesha wrote:
If you were given a very very expensive artifact, it should be removed from you.
Unless GMs decide otherwise.

*cough cough favoured players cough cough*

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:04 pm

Pellandria wrote:You are the one who wanted to sell the artefact or?

Sorry but what I read here is only a complainet about somone who tried to make quick silvers from leftover quest artefacts, you should be lucky enough, if your char just lost the item and not alot more than that.

Absolutely...

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:21 pm

Let the freakin RP decide.

Whats wrong with you people?

I miss icebird amulets.

Bidukan · Post by **Bidukan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:37 pm

Aegohl wrote:I wasn't the GM in question, however, from what I know of the case this guy's story is pretty one-sided. He requested that we go through the trouble of scripting a special name on the axe, wasting precious time and game resources so that he could make tons of gold ingame by selling a priceless artifact that he got for failing a quest.... right, I'm sure that Bragon would be down with that.

Yes, but it was before the GM requested to give the artefact back. I don't see what's wrong about try to sell an item anf get money, isn't it a human common behavior? I didn't know Gobaith was a church...Before I requested to name the artefact no one did ever ask for give it back. Anyway, it was like Bidukan was going to give the artefact back, but he wanted to take more than 20 minutes.

Aegohl wrote:The GM in question was also not a quest GM, but rather a developer who did the quest only as a nice way of saying to the recent settlement that the staff welcomes them and accepts them. I can't imagine what dangers are involved in a carry and deliver quest, but eh.. I won't speculate.

Oh well, this is not relevant, but the char fought demons, bandits, fire everywhere and players, all sent by Moshran who wanted the artefact.

Aegohl wrote:I'm a bit perturbed by your behavior, guy. I've made it a point of peacemaking and providing interesting alternatives whenever players have come to me through the proper channels to complain about something they don't like. Instead you yell at us over !gm and then on the board. Since you believe this is a public matter, I'll say very publically that you should consider this a warning that this behavior won't lead to anywhere nicely.

Well, I don't know which GM did this quest, and it seemed like he was not up to discuss about it or explain nothing. I fail to see what's wrong making this public. Is not possible to complain against GMs?

Bidukan · Post by **Bidukan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:42 pm

Kaila Galathil Travinus wrote:I think oocly once the quest is over if the GM wants the artifact back you should give it back sometimes artifacts aren't wanted back, but this is in relation to the original quest and what artifact it is.....the artifact may also be needed to continue the quest or do another quest... RP wise a god was angry at you and took the artifact. You may have had other RP plans for the artifact....did you submit the plans/quest for GM ideas or approval to continue the quest? It sounds to me like the quest was over *shrugs*

It wasn't a GM asking me for the item back, but the God and his messenger. I did not 'take' the item, but kept it from the failed task and no one. Anyway, as I said, Bidukan's fault was he was taking much time to give it back, he did not say he was going to keep the artifact. I couldn't talk with the GM, because I don't know which GM is, maybe my fault there.

Mesha · Post by **Mesha** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:46 pm

Is not possible to complain against GMs?

gm_complaint@illarion.org

This is an independent person whom takes care of these kinda things. Public naming and shaming is frowned upon.

Bidukan · Post by **Bidukan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:47 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:What I think about it is that if you're part of a quest, then as soon as the quest is over , it should revert to what you were before.

If you were given an overpowered quest char for example, you should have it removed.

If you were given a very very expensive artifact, it should be removed from you.

So it can be fair to the other people who don't have messengers of Irmorom giving them expensive items which they then flog to become rich.

By the way, it was a common 'Large Fire-Waraxe', without even an inscription (which I asked for). Not a very expensive item. Infact, Bidukan was most likely going to make an auction just for bragging

Bidukan · Post by **Bidukan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:48 pm

Mesha wrote:
Is not possible to complain against GMs?
gm_complaint@illarion.org

This is an independent person whom takes care of these kinda things. Public naming and shaming is frowned upon.

Thank you. Gms always do like secret naming, don't they?

I just need the GM's name to send a mail...

Mesha · Post by **Mesha** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:50 pm

No no, you can just include the logs of your incident. IT is actually quite normal NOT to know the GMs name. You usually do not get a hint which GM is questing with you.

So as I said, just provide logs, backgroundstory and what not, and this person will look into it.

Bidukan · Post by **Bidukan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:55 pm

Retlak wrote:At the end of the day if you are dealing with anything that is not normally obtainable in the game (pushed chars, quest items, etc) The devs and GM's always have first say. You're not the first, there has been 10's of "quest chosen chars" through the years and they've all lost what they gained for the quest. Feel happy that you were even chosen out of all the other people to have fun while it lasted.

I know Gods decide what's gonna happen but I wonder if players can find their own way to do God's desires. I mean, it can't be bad I was making what the God requested in 20 minutes because I wanted to do it FUN.

Post by **Nitram** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:54 pm

How ever it seems what should be fun to you was not fun to someone else. In this case the gm. I doubt any GM would stop you from doing "fun" in case he consideres that your way to doing "fun" is good.

You should think about this and stop crying that you lost some item.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:55 pm

@Bidukan : I wonder why you're making such a noise about that. A "messenger" of the gods could have very different possibilities. Taking the thing from your char's inventory was a "nice" choice - usually when a GM does such a thing, you can expect that a char who betrays a powerful being like some god's messenger, spends the rest of his miserable existance either in a very uncomfortable cooking pot of some demon or in the shape of a pig. Or at least enjoy the effects of a nifty curse of some sort.

You can't just join into some plot and demand that it will be bent to your personal wishes. You just can't have your character climb on the ancient dragon's back and say "And now, FLY !" and expect him not to be killed on the spot. That's not what RP stories are for.
And that's also not the usual flow of such stories - just read a few fairy tales, there you see what happens to the bad, lazy and selfish people. The most end up pretty dead, while the "good" guys end up getting rewards and riches. And that's how a consequently (and not uber-friendly) acting GM may decide, and even then, your complaint would be wrong, because it's usually logical not to mess with too powerful beings. Own fault !

Keep in mind that the GMs and staff people are those who create the thing here. It's heir job. It's NOT their job to entertain you in a way that you get everything your character wants. In fact, they can teach your character a very bitter lesson if you let him act in such a selfish way - but you, as a player, cannot complain about something that's THAT obvious.

You can complain if a GM treats you unjust, or willingly causes something where your character has no choice at all and ends up in a big mess he never could avoid. But not for something like this.

Nice curses from Irmorom, by the way, could include something like : every coin a person touches turns into dirt, and every mug of beer he ever touches, becomes either EMPTY or WARM and tastes as if it stood in the sun for at least three days. All your hair could fall off, including beard. All traders could feel the urgent need to charge you the double price for everything, and pay you the half for everything you sell... and so on.

So in your character's position, i would indeed expect things like that to happen soon. It's possible that they're scripting something like that just at the moment anyway

...and that's what you usually get for being such a N00b !

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:13 pm

Nitram wrote:How ever it seems what should be fun to you was not fun to someone else. In this case the gm. I doubt any GM would stop you from doing "fun" in case he consideres that your way to doing "fun" is good.

You should think about this and stop crying that you lost some item.

I love this kind of reaction.

The real point isn't any of this. The real point is a player wanted to RP and then was force RP'd by staff without any communication at all. If illarion likes to keep staff credibility, things like this should be non-issues.

It does not take much for a GM to bracket or whisper (no more of this madness please, just return the item or I will be forced to take it)

Bidukan · Post by **Bidukan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:14 pm

Let's make clear Bidukan said he was going to give the Axe back, so we can't say he betrayed a powerful being. He just was being 'slow'.

Damien wrote:@Bidukan : I wonder why you're making such a noise about that. A "messenger" of the gods could have very different possibilities. Taking the thing from your char's inventory was a "nice" choice - usually when a GM does such a thing, you can expect that a char who betrays a powerful being like some god's messenger, spends the rest of his miserable existance either in a very uncomfortable cooking pot of some demon or in the shape of a pig. Or at least enjoy the effects of a nifty curse of some sort.

That's my point, I would prefer to see my character rotten in the hell, burned alive, damned or whatever horrible thing. Taking the item seems boring to me and limits RP. The 'messenger' even said there would come a reign of fire if Bidukan keeps the Axe, not that he was going to take the Axe.

@Nitram: I'm not crying, I just want to hear opinions. I don't give a damn about the Axe, but I think it could have been much better.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:21 pm

A big part of the fun rests in the player's hands. You can always request to the GMs to play a "curse" or something alike affect your character, and create a plot line how he can "repent" for his bad behaviour to get rid of the curse. The GMs cannot do everything for everyone, but they are a good team, and all of the actual questers as well as some tech staff members are very good roleplayers.
So, approach them with a constructive suggestion instead of a complaint.

And NOT one where your character gets tons of gold or any other advantages.

Aegohl · Post by **Aegohl** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:22 pm

The Returner wrote:
Nitram wrote:How ever it seems what should be fun to you was not fun to someone else. In this case the gm. I doubt any GM would stop you from doing "fun" in case he consideres that your way to doing "fun" is good.

You should think about this and stop crying that you lost some item.
I love this kind of reaction.

The real point isn't any of this. The real point is a player wanted to RP and then was force RP'd by staff without any communication at all. If illarion likes to keep staff credibility, things like this should be non-issues.

It does not take much for a GM to bracket or whisper (no more of this madness please, just return the item or I will be forced to take it)

He wanted to make big huge gold and was requesting we script something special just so he could do that, Turny. Shush...

Bidukan · Post by **Bidukan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:26 pm

Aegohl wrote:
The Returner wrote:
Nitram wrote:How ever it seems what should be fun to you was not fun to someone else. In this case the gm. I doubt any GM would stop you from doing "fun" in case he consideres that your way to doing "fun" is good.

You should think about this and stop crying that you lost some item.
I love this kind of reaction.

The real point isn't any of this. The real point is a player wanted to RP and then was force RP'd by staff without any communication at all. If illarion likes to keep staff credibility, things like this should be non-issues.

It does not take much for a GM to bracket or whisper (no more of this madness please, just return the item or I will be forced to take it)
He wanted to make big huge gold and was requesting we script something special just so he could do that, Turny. Shush...

What's wrong about a char wanting to sell a rare item? And as I stated abore, it was BEFORE the GM comes and asked for the item back.

Post by **Nitram** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:31 pm

Bidukan wrote:What's wrong about a char wanting to sell a rare item? And as I stated abore, it was BEFORE the GM comes and asked for the item back.

Nothing, but in this case the GM told you what do to with the rare item. And just selling it of cause shows a impressive roleplay style

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:39 pm

Aegohl wrote:
The Returner wrote:
Nitram wrote:How ever it seems what should be fun to you was not fun to someone else. In this case the gm. I doubt any GM would stop you from doing "fun" in case he consideres that your way to doing "fun" is good.

You should think about this and stop crying that you lost some item.
I love this kind of reaction.

The real point isn't any of this. The real point is a player wanted to RP and then was force RP'd by staff without any communication at all. If illarion likes to keep staff credibility, things like this should be non-issues.

It does not take much for a GM to bracket or whisper (no more of this madness please, just return the item or I will be forced to take it)
He wanted to make big huge gold and was requesting we script something special just so he could do that, Turny. Shush...

How does that even apply Aeggie, a char will be greedy too. And a GM could still interupt and say NO I DONT WANT TO, JUST GIVE IT BACK OR I WILL ABRUPTLY END THIS CONVERSATION BY TAKING IT WITH NO RP WHATSOEVER IN AN RP ENFORCED GAME CAUSE IM A GM

Bidukan · Post by **Bidukan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:42 pm

Nitram wrote:
Bidukan wrote:What's wrong about a char wanting to sell a rare item? And as I stated abore, it was BEFORE the GM comes and asked for the item back.
Nothing, but in this case the GM told you what do to with the rare item. And just selling it of cause shows a impressive roleplay style

Yeah, blame Bidukan, I think he's the first human ever to become greedy and his crime is THINK in selling it. He did NOT sell it, he did NOT put it in auction, he did NOT refusse to give it back when the messenger askd for it. Since now I will try to follow the 'impressive roleplay style way' having only characters that do everything right.

Gorrwinder · Post by **Gorrwinder** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:44 pm

Personally I think its up in the air here. Sounds like each party had there faults, this thread being one of them. All I can see resulting from this thread is someone losing face over what should be an argument between the player involved and the gm staff. Dragging this out publicly will achieve nothing good.. I say close and delete the thread and get it saughted privetly.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:51 pm

GMs are the only ones allowed to force-RP.
Keep that in mind.

Also keep in mind that, if you take far too much time and the GM might be unable to control what you do with whatever item you received because he has, for example, to get up and work in three hours, he won't (and don't has to) bother much about your personal RP situation related solutions/ideas.