Get rid of PVP.

[Sundo Raca]

I doubt this proposal will be popular, but im making it anyway. I think that player v player combat adds nothing to a game like illarion (in fact it takes away from it) and i'd like to see it removed. To clarify, this would eliminate the possibility of ctrl clicking another person's character (or targeting it with magic), and force all forms of fighting or dueling to be done on an entirely rped basis.

The reasons for this proposal are as follows:

1. Illarion is a rping game. There is no need for engined fighting between characters. It promotes a 'winning' mentality, where people try and make the strongest character, and play with the sole purpose of developing the strongest character.

2. It promotes bad feeling ooc. People get very upset over clouding, ive witnessed (and been part of) a ton of arguments concerning clouding on msn, and you inevitable get ooc-related grudges where people try to get the other po back for clouding their character.

3. It attracts the wrong kind of player. I have nothing against those who enjoy pvp, but i dont think it fits with illarion. Quick example: Theres a character called lucius ig (i dont know the po, probably a cool guy this isnt meant as a dig) who seems to play almost totally for pging his character and beating overs in engined duels. This takes away from the atmosphere ig, and its honestly difficult and irritating to rp around. Im a character, in this world called illarion, say a farmer, and theres this random person walking round dueling everyone for no apparant reason. Im not saying everyone who plays for pvp doesnt enjoy rp, and many do it well, but generally i feel pging and then using it for pvp 'dominance' takes away from the game.

4. Theres no need for it. All fights can be rped, and this is a skill which can be learnt or taught pretty fast. Illarion should not be about having your character succeed, it should be about creating stories and deep character interaction. If thats why your playing rped fights shouldnt be a problem. If someone rps a superman then simply report them. I think that although at first people would find this hard, pretty soon they would pick up and the whole atmosphere of the game would change, and improve. People would be forced to stop playing to 'win' and start playing for story/character development only.

5. It would improve the rp in general. By getting rid of pvp, you make conflict ig trickier and force people to use thought more. Ctrl clicking is just too easy. In real life (this isnt a case for realism btw, im just pointing this out) conflict is a big deal, and with it all being rped it instantly becomes more 'serious' if you like.

6. It puts people off the game. Yep, im serious it does. Most people play illarion for rping purposes, so why are we using a system which contradicts that? In order to rp a warrior, you MUST powergame your character. This puts a lot of people off, simple as that. You rp a warrior character for years ig, then suddenly you get your ass kicked by someone you've never heard of and barely rps. How does this help illarion in any way?

8. By having pvp illarion is stuck in the middle between pure rping games and engine-related games. Imo you need to decide what the game is actually about, and then fully devote yourself to that road. If illarion is a rp game, then get rid of pvp. If its not, and roleplaying is second to the engine part then go with that. But currently its in a grey area, and i think it hurts the game.

To make this a little clearer, i dont support creating superheroe type characters of the bat. You create a warriortype character, and then have them improve alongside their experiences ig. Let your fighting skill develop alongside your character in itself.

This idea could fail totally, or it could drastically improve the game, but i dont think theres any harm in trying it out.

Thanks for reading my essay anyway

[Alber G]

I support this proposal. =)

[Werner von Mintraching]

i think, the bad feeling of the peoples dont come from the pvp.
IMHO the bad feeling is from wrong playingreasons.

There are players like i was once, who bild the char to reach any target like build an house, be one of the stronges fighters/mages... etc. there fore they produce presure against an other and most on to em selfe, as i did.....

now my char i like moste, is a char with out any targets to get and big disatvantages, and gues what that makes fun!

;o)

[Llama]

You know, I spent a lot of time thinking up a reason why this would be a bad idea. And to be perfectally honest I can't think of any :-/

Well we'd need more monsters.

And perhaps a GM could have a big button to allow PVP for tournaments and other reasons.

[LifeWonder]

I'll just leave this here.

[Dariya]

As much as I REALLY love that proposal, I am not sure if taking away the pvp-possibility wouldn't scare off players.
On the one hand you are right: Illarion is an RPG, why not rping fights as well.
On the other hand: what about the engine-supported crafts? ... alright, wares are produced, sold, etc. but this could all be rped as well

And I guess that RP-fights would not hinder 'superheroes' to remain superheroes ... they'd rp that they win every fight, in worst cases maybe ignoring rp-attempts of the other fighter to get him down ... and this would lead to 'bad mood' as well, as there maybe would be topics on the forum like 'bleh, XY ignored my rp during fighting, bad roleplayer' and the like ... which again would lead to players quitting; ones for being called bad roleplayers, others because they don't like the 'new bad mood ingame' and bad roleplayers .
Of course, ignoring rp, bad rp could/should be reported to GMs, which again would lead to bad mood of the 'reported player' if s/he is approached by a GM.

Your proposal surely has advantages, but also disadvantages ... but what the heck ... why not giving it a try?!

[Llama]

On the other hand: what about the engine-supported crafts? ... alright, wares are produced, sold, etc. but this could all be rped as well

But skeletons don't RP back ;_;

They only respond when you hit them.

You need engine-supported crafts for either RP reasons (tailoring...) or to improve fighting/magic ... which will be against monsters and other creatures.

[Sundo Raca]

As much as I REALLY love that proposal, I am not sure if taking away the pvp-possibility wouldn't scare off players.
On the one hand you are right: Illarion is an RPG, why not rping fights as well.
On the other hand: what about the engine-supported crafts? ... alright, wares are produced, sold, etc. but this could all be rped as well

And I guess that RP-fights would not hinder 'superheroes' to remain superheroes ... they'd rp that they win every fight, in worst cases maybe ignoring rp-attempts of the other fighter to get him down ... and this would lead to 'bad mood' as well, as there maybe would be topics on the forum like 'bleh, XY ignored my rp during fighting, bad roleplayer' and the like ... which again would lead to players quitting; ones for being called bad roleplayers, others because they don't like the 'new bad mood ingame' and bad roleplayers .
Of course, ignoring rp, bad rp could/should be reported to GMs, which again would lead to bad mood of the 'reported player' if s/he is approached by a GM.

Your proposal surely has advantages, but also disadvantages ... but what the heck ... why not giving it a try?!

This is pretty much my feeling, it could go totally wrong. I think people would naturally learn not to rp superheroes (as if everyone did that it wouldnt go anywhere). But yeah, basically i dont see why this couldnt be tried, at least for a time.

From my experiences with gms, getting reported generally scares you into not repeating the mistake.

I know some people would leave over this, im not trying to ruin anyones fun, but maybe other people would join/become more active? Who knows.

[Retlak]

I'm going to clear up a solution here that will make everyone happy...


Instead of removing one feature to make 50% of the community happy and the other 50% wanting to quit, instead:

Leave everything as it is, so far this acheives people who like skilling and testing their hard earned work on fellow skillers (duels) to have fun still.


BUT NOW THIS IS WHERE THE ROLEPLAYERS HAVE TO DO SOME WORK:

I know it's hard! But.. when a fight is about to happen, request "Can we make this a roleplay fight?" I can garentee 80% of the time the enemy will say "ok sure". And if at first they rp trying to win? They will eventually "learn" as you said.. but also, nothing is forced rp, you can battle just as efficiently if you want.

I beleive this way, Dev's don't have to dissable their hard worked scripts, and in the process both sides are happy, and we won't have people quitting.

[Sundo Raca]

I'm going to clear up a solution here that will make everyone happy...


Instead of removing one feature to make 50% of the community happy and the other 50% wanting to quit, instead:

Leave everything as it is, so far this acheives people who like skilling and testing their hard earned work on fellow skillers (duels) to have fun still.


BUT NOW THIS IS WHERE THE ROLEPLAYERS HAVE TO DO SOME WORK:

I know it's hard! But.. when a fight is about to happen, request "Can we make this a roleplay fight?" I can garentee 80% of the time the enemy will say "ok sure". And if at first they rp trying to win? They will eventually "learn" as you said.. but also, nothing is forced rp, you can battle just as efficiently if you want.

I beleive this way, Dev's don't have to dissable their hard worked scripts, and in the process both sides are happy, and we won't have people quitting.

Its difficult to type that when you've already been ctrl clicked, or your dealing with people who simply want you clouded.

Ive often asked people to rp duels. Ive had a bunch of excuses, ranging from 'i dont do rp duels, because im a writer and i need more space to type out my really complicated mes' (wtf i know ). I also get 'it takes too long', 'you just want your character to win, so no', or my favourite '*ctrl clicks*'.

Ive only successfully had two rp duels in illarion. The others never happened because the other player didnt want it.

Its up to the devs of course, if this means all their hard work gets flushed down the toilet and cant be retrieved then i understand totally them not liking the proposal.

[Retlak]

If i ever got replies like that when requesting, i'd !gm them, or simply log out and come back later, because that does go against what the game is about. If you get that reply again as shit as any of the ones you gave examples, then try reporting them, GM's are very helpful and understanding, but removig a feature is not going to help much at all, other consequences will occure.

[Sundo Raca]

Currently i dont think they are breaking the rules doing what i said above, and if they are it would be very tiring for the gms to sort it out everytime someone refuses a rp duel. Also there are other reasons why i think a rp format would be better.

[Damien]

The reasons for this suggestion are good ones indeed, and the argumentation is logical. I myself need minimal PvP and even usually play without any fighting, but still a certain amount of "training" is necessary to make your character survive against strg-clickers. But also keep in mind that such a solution would take away a part of the freedom of the game.

Also keep in mind what the side effects of such a decision would be :

Any player could do ANYTHING to other players without having to fear to be "clouded". The one and only way to solve the situation of an overreacting kid who doesn't listen to any talk would be a GM call, even in tiny situations.

The PvP option has become enerving because some people overdo it, but disabling it completely isn't really a solution.

A possibly better way (but also a technically more work-intensive way) would be a technical declaration of fight-free zones, either by disabling fighting in some areas (i.e. within towns) or the placement of NPC guard things who automatically catch and imprison everyone who attacks another person within town borders.

Both solutions, anyhow, are quite work-intensive and would possibly take months of development time, and concerning that, i think that both druid and priest systems would be a better benefit for the game than such zones (which also have other disadvantages, like provoking people and then fleeing into safe zones).

Other games have implemented a "criminal" status, with varying effects.
Such would also need a lot of development.

Since the above are no real option for now and since taking away the PvP option would also cause more people to hang around near monster spawns or get bored and leave, there's no real way around leaving the actual system as it is, and instead help out the GM and Seer teams better as well as reporting people that purposely abuse the system for the cause of making too much "fighting trouble".

[Retlak]

Can i just add that the KO system was implemented to prevent cloudings so much and allow a more friendly enviroment. (Few players still cloud people because they do not consider "fun for all") but still.. it's there.

[Lennier]

To be serious. Why anyone allways makes such proposals to switch Illarion in a chat-rp?

Everyone who played this game serval weeks/months should notice, that it is not a Chat-RP and it never will be.

It is engine based. It is graphical based. These two parts are the key of the environment of Illarion and its physical laws, beside of its story and the players.

Who ever act outside of the supported borders, acts in a grey zone, at own risk that he get ignored.

Who ever plays Illarion as chat-RP and wonders, why he get victim of *ctrl+click* of an other player, has an at least mistaken view of this game.

[Alytys Lamar]

I like your suggestion, BUT ....

I see clearly the freedom to play this game restricted.
Aly was and is a fighter - but a lot of fights I Rped - I had not one situation I was killed without my permission yet - and I play nearly since 3 years now.

So if i look at my experience i can only say - leave it as it is. Ask always for RPed fight if you want - if the other disagree, simple log out *shrug* Just leave him alone with his *lust to kill*

And I agree heartily with Lennier -- its not a Chat Game - it has his own Character and Lore

[Aegohl]

To be honest, I would lose interest in Illarion completely without PVP, because I already use IRC to chat up Lilli and Wok and Martin. I don't need another chat program. In fact, if this proposal were accepted, I would spend the last days of PVP PKing all of you noobs. =)

[Retlak]

Just like you did to my lich .

[Caecilianus Cathari]

If I didn't want to beat up people, I'd just read a book.

[Damien]

In fact, i'd also miss the good old "How do i kill ?" "Like THAT !" *cloud* times... :
Seriously, who really wants a TOTALLY engine-fight-free thing, can just log into SL, and will soon find out that it's quite lame.
But be warned if you should try... All the cybering around there is very annoying though, and they kinda do it EVERYWHERE. I once scripted a giant flying ...thingy... on SL, but didn't want to pay money just to be able to upload the "C/S is EVIL" texture. I also didn't get it up to zeppeline size without paying, which made the plan kinda pointless. So i made a Pac Man Vehicle instead.

[Christopher..Rigden]

They won't even make tobacco... I don't think they'll do this...

[Llama]

They won't even make tobacco... I don't think they'll do this...

. . .

. . .

. . .

Seriously man, get off everyone's back.

[Pellandria]

Logging out during a fights is forbidden as far as I know, but anyway the proposal is not bad, its right that some people tend to use the system just for the sake of "beating" people with no other reason than to push their egos.

Furthermore rping a fight would finally make people think about disadvantages in their chars instead of being the unbeatable machine some people like to draw, on the other side should an experienced player be taken out by a newbie?

As it is the figthing system is not really something you can work with, unless two people who are a match to each other fight someone is going to loose...fast, that means even while an engine fight is running you can't writte #me's unless you want to look up and see that you are dead.

Taking the whole system out as such might not be smart, maybe the figthing system is jsut "enabled" as soon as some uses the attack command on his own, so people who still want pvp can fight pvp, but those who annoy people, who want rp fights, can't attack them engine wise.

[Daelyn]

I'd quit, that's for sure.

[Llama]

that means even while an engine fight is running you can't writte #me's unless you want to look up and see that you are dead.

or learn to touchtype

[Mesha]

I'm going to clear up a solution here that will make everyone happy...


Instead of removing one feature to make 50% of the community happy and the other 50% wanting to quit, instead:

Leave everything as it is, so far this acheives people who like skilling and testing their hard earned work on fellow skillers (duels) to have fun still.


BUT NOW THIS IS WHERE THE ROLEPLAYERS HAVE TO DO SOME WORK:

I know it's hard! But.. when a fight is about to happen, request "Can we make this a roleplay fight?" I can garentee 80% of the time the enemy will say "ok sure". And if at first they rp trying to win? They will eventually "learn" as you said.. but also, nothing is forced rp, you can battle just as efficiently if you want.

I beleive this way, Dev's don't have to dissable their hard worked scripts, and in the process both sides are happy, and we won't have people quitting.

Its difficult to type that when you've already been ctrl clicked, or your dealing with people who simply want you clouded.

Ive often asked people to rp duels. Ive had a bunch of excuses, ranging from 'i dont do rp duels, because im a writer and i need more space to type out my really complicated mes' (wtf i know ). I also get 'it takes too long', 'you just want your character to win, so no', or my favourite '*ctrl clicks*'.

Ive only successfully had two rp duels in illarion. The others never happened because the other player didnt want it.

Its up to the devs of course, if this means all their hard work gets flushed down the toilet and cant be retrieved then i understand totally them not liking the proposal.

*ctrl clicks* If someone whispers you that, it is in fact not allowed. If they do not RP whatsoever, that is in fact, not allowed. So be sure to !gm such things, or PM me or any other GM with details.

[Nitram]

Alright.

So we disable fighting. Alright. Right next we disable the whole magic. Just to be fair. Next stop: crafting system. Those items can be roleplayed. We just give everyone a tool to create the items he likes out of the box.
And then we just disable to whole map and stuff. Then at least everyone is together and can roleplay with each other. Who is were on the island exactly is possible to roleplay.

And at the end we rename Illarion to IRC.

Really guys... proposal rejected in any kind.

Nitram