Player-Staff-Chat 2008-10-22 inkl. PROTOKOLL (dt./engl.)

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Miklorius
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Player-Staff-Chat 2008-10-22 inkl. PROTOKOLL (dt./engl.)

Post by Miklorius »

UPDATE: Hier Zusammenfassung des Player-Staff-Chats von 2008-10-22 (incl. ultra-short english summary).

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Anderswo fand eine recht erhitzte Diskussion mal wieder übers Verhältnis zwischen Staff und Spieler betreffs Kommunikation und Verhalten statt. Estralis schlug vor, dies publikumswirksam hierhin zu tragen, was ich mal tue. Dass die Kommunikation zwischen Staff und Spielern oft suboptimal verläuft, klingt ja häufig an. Vielleicht kann man's mal offen ausdiskutieren...
Estralis wrote:Einen Spieler-GM-Chat kann man mal wieder machen, wobei ich diese ganzen Regelungen streichen würde. Je mehr dabei sind und was beitragen, desto besser. Ich schau mich mal nach einem Termin um.

[Ein] "Kontrollgremium" ist mE ein unpraktischer Vorschlag. Mit Wahlen klappt sowas eh nicht, längerfristige Bans werden bereits jetzt stets ausdiskutiert. Beschwerden über GMs werden nicht von GMs geprüft - sondern von jemanden, der auch Sanktionen verhängen kann bzw. die GMs rauswerfen kann. Ich denke, dass ist ein weit schärferes Schwert als ein gewählter Aufsichtsrat, der keine technische Handhabe gegen machtmißbrauchende GMs hat. Aber eine Diskussion hierrüber ist sicher nicht verkehrt und kann in einer Verbesserung der Situation enden.
Kadiya wrote:Das gm-abuse hat bis vor kurzem noch Nitram bearbeitet... [...] Wir haben auf dem Illa-Treffen diskutiert und sind zu dem Ergebnis gekommen, dass Lennier von nun an das GM-Abuse bearbeiten soll, da er wohl mehr als jeder andere als neutral bezeichnet werden kann.
Wir sind bisher nur noch nicht dazu gekommen, die umzustellen und anzukündigen, da wir momentan mit anderen Dingen alle Hände voll zu tun haben.
PS: Sorry, no translation.
Last edited by Miklorius on Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:34 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Keikan Hiru
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Post by Keikan Hiru »

Du solltest dir den Mittwoch freihalten.
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

http://illarion.org/general/de_startpage.php wrote:Liebe Illarioniten,
am kommenden Mittwoch findet ab 20:00 ein Spieler-GM-Chat statt. Als Neuerung gegenüber früheren Veranstaltungen dieser Art wird er im Spiel stattfinden. Interessierte Spieler sollten sich zu diesem Zeitpunkt einloggen und auf Anweisungen warten, wie man teilnehmen kann.

Die Themen des Chats:
  • Verbesserung der Kommunikation Spieler-Staff
  • Anwendung der neuen Regeln
  • Spielerwerbung
  • Offene Fragerunde
Der Chat wird in deutscher Sprache abgehalten. Bis Mittwoch!

GM Estralis

---

Fellow Illarionites,
this wednesday, starting at 18:00 GMT, a player-GM-chat will be hosted. In difference to former events of this kind, the chat will take place ingame. Interested players should log in at the given time and wait for instructions how to join.

The topics of the chat:
  • Improvement of the communication players-staff
  • Application of the new rules
  • Promotion
  • Open questionary
The chat will be held in german. See you on wednesday!

GM Estralis
:-P
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Miklorius
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Post by Miklorius »

Mist, paar Stunden zu spät (mein RSS-Reader hatte Illa noch nicht gecheckt), hätte ich doch gestern schon posten sollen :).

Na ja, man kann ja trotzdem schon mal Themen/Probleme hier sammeln etc. Bis Übermorgen dann.
Ivar Kraftimarm
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Post by Ivar Kraftimarm »

Estralis Seborian wrote:
http://illarion.org/general/de_startpage.php wrote:
The topics of the chat:
  • Improvement of the communication players-staff
  • Application of the new rules
  • Promotion
  • Open questionary
The chat will be held in german. See you on wednesday!

GM Estralis
sollte das nicht in englisch sein? :P
Keikan Hiru
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Post by Keikan Hiru »

Nein, das ist so richtig.
Der Chat am Mittwoch wird in Deutsch abgehalten.
Es wäre zudem relativ schwer am gleichen Tag zur gleichen Zeit einen Chat in Deutsch und Englisch anzubieten.

Ich vermute, dass es eine englische Zusammenfassung der besprochenen Punkte zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt geben wird.
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Post by Ivar Kraftimarm »

warum ist dann der chat zu unterschiedlichen zeiten angegeben? ich dachte zunächst es läge an den zeitzonen, aber es ist definitiv nicht die zeitzone. einmal ist 20 uhr angegeben und einmal 18 uhr (gmt).
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Lillian
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Post by Lillian »

Ivar Kraftimarm wrote:warum ist dann der chat zu unterschiedlichen zeiten angegeben? ich dachte zunächst es läge an den zeitzonen, aber es ist definitiv nicht die zeitzone. einmal ist 20 uhr angegeben und einmal 18 uhr (gmt).
20 Uhr deutsche Zeit ist 18 Uhr gmt zeit. Wir haben zurzeit noch Sommerzeit und somit gmt+2. Das ändert sich am 26.10. wieder. Dann sind wir nurnoch gmt+1 :wink:
Ivar Kraftimarm
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Post by Ivar Kraftimarm »

uhm, sommerzeit war doch immer nur gmt+1? hab ich mich jetzt so vertan? na ja, irren ist menschlich...
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Hilft ungemein:

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com

Wichtig: GMT ist NICHT britische Zeit. Gegenüber England sind wir auch im Sommer nur eine Stunde voraus, da es auf der Insel auch die Sommerzeit gibt.

Der Chat wird auf deutsch abgehalten, eine Wiederholung auf englisch ist denkbar, zur Zeit aber nicht unmittelbar geplant.
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Saril
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Post by Saril »

Ich find es gut das es einen in englisch und einen in deutsch gibt. Zum Deutschen werde ich versuchen zu kommen.
Ivar Kraftimarm
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Post by Ivar Kraftimarm »

Estralis Seborian wrote: Wichtig: GMT ist NICHT britische Zeit. Gegenüber England sind wir auch im Sommer nur eine Stunde voraus, da es auf der Insel auch die Sommerzeit gibt.
das war mein denkfehler ;)
Retlak
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Post by Retlak »

I was reading that and I thought "Oh nice, i'd like to join you guys" but then I read that the chat will only be in German :(
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Alber G
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Post by Alber G »

I understand much german, but i find it quite frustrating for the others that do not understand any german at all... I mean.... wtf?! Maybe´we should all start speaking russian or finnish instead in the´ooc ig and here on the forums.. For many persons it is just the same..

( sorry for extreemly lame typing and spelling but im not usedto laptops.. )
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Pellandria
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Post by Pellandria »

The problem is, if the staff does an all english/german chat it will just end in one thing..people shouting and not understanding each other, we allready got the problem ig and on the boards, where the language barrier shows a problem discussing things, I guess if you find someone willing to translate while the chat goes and the discussion is still hold on german all could go well, but I honestly think that it will be to much input at the same time for the translator.
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Post by Dariya »

Keikan Hiru wrote: Der Chat am Mittwoch wird in Deutsch abgehalten.
Es wäre zudem relativ schwer am gleichen Tag zur gleichen Zeit einen Chat in Deutsch und Englisch anzubieten.

Ich vermute, dass es eine englische Zusammenfassung der besprochenen Punkte zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt geben wird.
The chat will be held on Wednesday in German.
It would be quite difficult to do it at the same time in German and English.

I guess that later there will be a summary of discussed topics in English.

Estralis Seborian wrote: Der Chat wird auf deutsch abgehalten, eine Wiederholung auf englisch ist denkbar, zur Zeit aber nicht unmittelbar geplant.
The chat will be held in German, a repetition in English is probable but not planned for the time being.
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Alber G
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Post by Alber G »

Then how do you suggest the US players, that have no experience with german or any other germanic ( or other similar ) lanuguages understand it? Considering the gms might also not have the the best language skills irl :P
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

The funny thing is: When we hold the chat in english, the other half of the community would complain about this, too. We have chosen a time, best for european players. A chat in english would need a time, suitable for players from america and europe.

Why do people always find a reason to complain...?
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Post by The Returner »

Alber G wrote:Then how do you suggest the US players, that have no experience with german or any other germanic ( or other similar ) lanuguages understand it? Considering the gms might also not have the the best language skills irl :P
They will probably host an English one in the near future, just not at the same time. That is, they don't have to, but they might feel nice enough.

Although a summary is nice, there are players here who are not vocalized in german and may have important oppinions that need saying.

I'm sure the staff hasen't done this as an underthought.


Edit:
Estralis Seborian wrote:The funny thing is: When we hold the chat in english, the other half of the community would complain about this, too. We have chosen a time, best for european players. A chat in english would need a time, suitable for players from america and europe.

Why do people always find a reason to complain...?
In the future, perhaps list two times, one for German players, and one for English speaking players. Then the only complaints will be WHY ARE ______ FIRST.
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Korm Kormsen
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Post by Korm Kormsen »

why not a two language meeting?
i think, the reasons should be obvious.
first, somebody allways would not understand completely, leading to flaming comments, therefor leading to chaos, not to results.

second:
Illarion - in my eyes - is not just a roleplaying game, but a social/cultural pilot project.
if one would ask a native from the arctic circle about definitions of warm and cold, the answers will be different than those from a central african native.
they have different points of view. different values, around which their lives and cultures evolve.
to find common ground for persons of different cultures one has to keep it simple. one has to exclude a lot of more complex aspects of the cultural values of the participants.
(we see that in worldpolitics. they have to exclude so much, that the resulting common goals are not worth the efforts)
for an online game, the most basic style would be to hack and slay.
"gimme gold or me give iron!" is very easy to understand.
but that is not the goal of the makers of illarion. their goal is high level role playing.
alas, as illarion and a couple of other games showed to me, there are deep rooted differences, what is felt as good roleplay.
often enough one and the same ingame scene will be described as boring or even offending by members of one cultural group, while members of another cultural group remember it as really good and interesting RP.
there is the theoretical solution, that those, who don't like the RPstyle of other cultural groups apart themselves, to play mainly with players of similar backgrounds.
the last years showed to me, that this is seldom tolerated by those excluded.
i think, that the extreme stress, that reigns the forums (and often even ingame) stems from the too high goals, the founders of illarion had put.
in english only -, or in german only - organized games i seldom found so much ressentiments as in this game, where we try just to enjoy our free time without ressentiments.
my opinion is, that if a high RP standard is to pervail, the game should be continued in just one of the two languages.
the real problem of illarion is not players versus staff, or staff versus players.
the real problem is, that there is no comunity. not ONE comunity.

korm
Damien
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Post by Damien »

Communications between "all" players and a staff can never be truly optimized, simply because some see an opponent in everything they understand as authority.
But it is important to keep a certain niveau of politeness, on both sides.
In the past, this was often not the case. Usually, some player gets angry about something that happened ingame and complains to some noninvolved staff member the rude way.

Just keep two small things in mind :

1.)
Usually, a normal player community like the one of illarion contains :
- several smart people
- several nice people
- several smart and nice people
- several smartasses
- several religious fanatics
- several i-would-do-everything-better-than-everyone-else-does-people-ics
- several idiots
- several morons
- several assholes
- and quite a bunch of kids.

Plus a whole lot more which would literally cause this little not-too-seriously-meant-but-exemplaric- list to detonate.

aaaaaand:
2.)
If you are a staff member, it will always happen that :
- some players are friendly to you
- some players are unfriendly to you
- some players tell you a bunch of good ideas
- some players insist on telling you a bunch of crappy ideas
- some players insist on arguing with you
- some players try to talk you into stuff
- some players try to talk you out of stuff
- some players try to tell you the(ir) truth about something
- some players try to tell you lies about something
- some players try to abuse you for stuff
- some players try to become like you (GM)
- some players try to un-GM some other GM they do not like by complaining to you
- some players get angry with you because you did not do exactly what they wanted you to do
- some players try to un-GM you by complaining to some other GM because they do not like you because you did not do exactly what they wanted you to do several times.

...and so on. Above stuff will always happen and does all the time.

The only way for the whole community to navigate the whole ship through all the above influences is a certain level of politeness from all sides as well as some "watchdogs" that are able to restrain too-loud-barking stray dogs from all fractions (including good players, bad players, tech staff and ingame staff) if they step across certain borders.

Therefore :
- a certain strictness is absolutely necessary
- but ! rudeness is avoidable
- a good flow of information is necessary
...and :
- politeness is mandatory

For everyone.

Have fun chatting.
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Vern Kron
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Post by Vern Kron »

Ofcourse, the issue on communities, is that there is always a 'favorite'. Everyone has their favorites, and if something bad -happens- to their favorite, making it less favorite, harmed, or not existant, they want to take it out on anouther, most likely the person/thing that did it.

For example, lets say.. Bob is walking down the street, eating his favorite food. Larry, is walking the other way, and hits Bob in the face, and then takes his favorite food. Bob, obviously injured from the punch, hobbles to town, hungry and angry. Larry then is disliked by him. Bob then complains to his friends. His friends then set out on a war-path against Larry. They beat up Larry, and then Larry tells his friends. His friends like them, so they attack Bob and his friends. Thus, anger grows from this, and a divide begins. This divide will slowly tear the area apart, until peace is made or one side is all dead. Hopefully, it would stop after the punch, but things get blown out of the water sometimes.

Now, that is why the 'player' community doesn't get along well sometimes. Someone does something that seems poorly done to anouther person against them, or their favorite, and throw a fit.

Now, we throw in a gm to the mix. Lets say, Larry and Bob are now duking it out, every time they meet, and they meet quite often. One would get curious as to why this was started, but decides to just watch. But slowly, this series of fightings turns very serious, as the players begin to get angry as well, and ooc is being flung about. The GM steps in. Now, what would a person do? If there was intense name calling done by both sides, would it be banned? Would one side be banned, and the other side be annoyed because their rp was inturrupted? Either way, one party most likely will not be completely satisified, and then take it to the boards. The GM then posts a reply, people demand answers, and then there are msn messages, complaints, private messages, and who knows what else sent towards the gm on all sides. So that springs up annoyance and time away from what the gm wants to do to handle this, which causes tension between some players and gms, because the players pick favorite gms and disrespect the other ones.

Then there is the tech developers. They create the enviroment that the players live and thrive in. But, ofcourse, the players have their favorite things. The players will send in idea, after idea, after idea, until a dev speaks or submits it in. The devs are human, and can't respond to everyone, and people may think it is favoritism. The players then will try very hard to get their topic noticed, or let it drop and wait. Then, when the devs send in an item, lets say... snowballs, for an example, some players will be happy, some will want improvement (say by adding damage to it), some will wish it removed, and some will complain that it was a worthless update and that they should be working on something else. The devs, obviously will make their choices as they please, but will in time grow tired of certain people. The devs may not voice it openly, but the player may feel slighted, and then throw a huge fit over favoritism over the staff, and how his idea was great, and this idea sucked, or this idea was intended to destroy some thing that the player liked. Thus the reduction of dev-player communities.

And then there are issues behind the scenes that we may not know about, such as fights within the staff.

Or, the worst of all, a gm unfairly and wrongly bans, harrasses, pulls aside, or in general is rude to a player. This, ofcourse, would be handled by Illarion E.V. or atleast I would hope so.

The language barrier only makes things worse.
How can you fix it? Well, that depends on your terms of fix.
The gm's and devs could just cover their ears and work, ignoring the players and putting out flames when they see it, excluding the ones to them which they would obviously just ignore.

The gm's and dev's could make a generic, blank forum account that they all had access to, and just start moding silently, and gm'ing without notice.

The devs could select a council of players to work together to resolve issues such as these, but then they would basically be gm's.

Or, the players could accept it, and explain things in a -reasonable- manner. For example: "My character was banned and I was kicked from the game, why?"
A pm sent by a gm:
"You were killing noobs, yelling at the PO's, and being just plain rude to me oocly when I asked you about this, so you are banned for a day."

Instead of
"WTF WHY AM I BANNED!? I LIKE THIS GAME BUT I HATE THE STAFF UNBAN ME UNBAN ME NOOOOOW!!!11!one! lol"

At which a gm would get annoyed and angry probably send a nasty reply.
"You not only were rude when I banned, but now you are also being rude now, please take a longer ban of *time* and think about your actions. Also, I am deleting your forum account in three days." *delete*

The players annoy themselves, and the gms and the devs. The devs make the game how they see fit, and enjoy the proccess in doing so (or I hope they do, they volunteer to.) The gms are bugged by players for doing the work they volunteered for, but have to bother the players as well.

That is my post about communication as I see it right now. It is only hostile should some one start making it that way.
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Post by Damien »

GMs usually don't get hostile when even insulted themselves, cause then that's a good reason / excuse to ban the enerving person for a while to cool down for a bit. But they are also humans and can get angry if their patience is pulled too much.

Above situations are standard, and are easily solved by kinda everyone. But it also happens that a player starts badtalking GM whenever he can, by spreading rumors and by trying to find points for complains in everything a GM does. Usually, this one player gets a few others to join in.
Of course the rest of the staff will find out about the nature of whatever has been said by server logs and likewise. The truth about things is always found out. But such researches need time, need work, and mean a lot of stress to everyone involved.
In the long run, it makes the game less fun for everyone involved and reduces staff member numbers quite effectively.

In illarion, we have very few quest-GMs. Some years ago, we even had a whole team of questers, but people kept complaining to other staff members (about quite nothing), and even quests that are enjoyed by a great number of players are being talked down or complained about by people who didn't even participate.
Which had the effect that by now, only small events are done from time to time, when one of the few quest people has time to do that or has recovered from the latest complaints/flaming spree. Illarion players are mostly being left alone, it's just less trouble that way.

Just an example : I once helped in a fun-quest with two mating dragons (far away from town, so noone was forced to do it). The map creators and our scriptors implemented some easter eggs, like a grave stone for the time wasted on creating the huge dungeon, a sign that said "unless you didn't notice by yourself, you are now standing in a dragon hort", a bard skeleton with a diary note next to it that said he planned to try to play the dragons a sleeping song on a trumpet, and a skeleton which had some arrows on it along with an item titled "broken horn of Gondor" and a small note saying "The halflings are gone, the ring is gone too, and i have the feeling that i'm in the completely wrong place".

Long list of details. But : While many players enjoyed the whole event and a lot positive msn-messages popped up about every found easter egg, several players complained (partially in the worst tone) about how the stupid easter eggs would have ruined everything and how such things would make their "serious" characters unplayable.
One thing a player said was : "Aragorn does NOT belong into illarion. That is completely unrealistic. And that grave stone is OOC. You and your helpers are definitely not taking your staff positions serious enough, i demand that all of you leave immediately or..." and so on. He didn't even participate in the quest before.

In the end, i myself "enjoyed" a few hours of such debates, because one player complained to a few other players who did not participate in the quest itself at all, about said easter egg.
And those complained as well first to each other, then to me (and possibly several other people who were GMs at that time), and so on. Some people can really get insultive about such absolutely unimportant details.

And as long as such habits are alife in the community, illarion will always have quite a hard time in having any questers staying active.
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Post by Rhianna Morgan »

Damien wrote:"Aragorn does NOT belong into illarion."
Great sentence, because the guy with the horn of Gondor and the arrows is Boromir... *laughs*

But actually, you are quite right, Damien, as long as people keep complaining about the quests, there will be even fewer than before. This is a shame, because no one is FORCED to participate in a quest. You usually get the chance to at least keep your head down, and do nothing important, what means you don't risc your char in any means, or to simply NOT participate.

Example: last night, the demon court in Bane. I was like *rofl* most of the time, it was so great stuff, really... strange but funny.
Now, I simply wait for someone to start complains about it, because it was in the middle of the town square, etc etc etc... but actually, it was a lot of fun, and even people like me who had to leave earlier, after they already arrived too late, (unfortunatelly,) were able to have fun!

Thanks to the questers by the way... nice evening.

I guess we should all stop and think, before we complain about quests. Even if we did not like them... someone spend a lot of their free time planning, and doing them. Be glad there are people who do this. I could not, to be true... *thumbs up, Questers!*
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Leider kann ich dem Chat heute nicht beiwohnen. Allen anderen aber viel Spaß und schlagt euch nicht die Köpfe ein :-P!
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The Returner
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Post by The Returner »

Everyone is making good points about social development, but I'm very dissapointed that our english speaking community is over-thinking this whole thing way too much.
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Garou
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Post by Garou »

The Returner wrote:Everyone is making good points about social development, but I'm very dissapointed that our english speaking community is over-thinking this whole thing way too much.
Wrong! This whole thing starts in a german guild-board and we want to discuss live with them.

BUT
The chat will be held in German, a repetition in English is probable but not planned for the time being.
If you want to have such a discussion, perhaps there will be one, but ask the English GMs, too.

___

Leider wird, wie erwähnt, der eigentliche Initiator nicht da sein. Wer das ganze in die Hand nimmt, wird sich heute Abend kurzfristig zeigen.

Es findet jedoch definitiv statt.

20:00 Uhr
Trolls Bane Marktplatz

Spieler, die es bis dahin nicht schaffen sollten, mögen bitte ab 19:50 ein !gm senden

Ich bitte ebenso, euch schon jetzt zu überlegen, was ihr sagen möchtet. Es wird gesittet ablaufen, artet es aus wird die Sache beendet.

Shift-F2-6 helfen, das gesagte zu speichern und schnell wieder abrufen zu können.

Das ganze ist KEIN Rollenspiel, sondern rein OOC. Daher finden keine Emotes statt (hey, endlich dürft ihr ;) )

Liebe Grüße und bis heute Abend
~Garou
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The Returner
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Post by The Returner »

Garou wrote:
The Returner wrote:Everyone is making good points about social development, but I'm very dissapointed that our english speaking community is over-thinking this whole thing way too much.
Wrong! This whole thing starts in a german guild-board and we want to discuss live with them.

BUT
The chat will be held in German, a repetition in English is probable but not planned for the time being.
If you want to have such a discussion, perhaps there will be one, but ask the English GMs, too.
This is exactly my point, this is all that needed to be said before a topic lock. There is not a huge discussion to be had here.
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Lennier
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Post by Lennier »

Der Chat wird 20:00 ingame im GM-Schloss stattfinden. Dazu wird gegen 19:45 nochmal im Spiel aufgerufen. Interessierte schreiben eine !gm Nachricht, dass sie daran teilnehmen wollen.
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Rincewind
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Post by Rincewind »

Wie wird gehandhabt... wenn jemand vorzeitig den chat verlassen möchte?
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