Virtual carnal desires - discussion in here

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Faladron
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Virtual carnal desires - discussion in here

Post by Faladron »

As I know 4-5 people will be completely dull and neglecting about what Zak pointed out, as NOT to discuss any further about rule 9 first case, in the other thread, you can do so here.

You can even flame flame and flame. Arien probably won't read this until monday so have a blast you discussion-woozy people.
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The Returner
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Post by The Returner »

No further comments, sorry.
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Post by Zak »

The Returner wrote:No further comments, sorry.
And I'd also appreciate it if no others start a discussion on it again, not even in a seperate thread (thanks to Faladron for the thought though).
In fact, just because Arien is not available you shouldn't do things that usually wouldn't be tolerated in the general form, it does not protect you from the consequences (those will only come with some delay).
If you feel a need to talk about the rule, feel free to use the IRC-channel or a MSN-mass-conversation.

Honestly, there is not even a need to discuss it any further as enough was said in the first thread already that can be considered by the staff if there will be changes on the rule (but this is only my thought on it).
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Post by Fooser »

Make love not violence
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Rhandarja Opalin
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Post by Rhandarja Opalin »

So, I want to post my opinion about this rule.

I understand, it's for the safety of the minors .. but: Why can children kill in the game, but not read about sex?

Did you ever heard a bone breaking, hit by a sword?
Can you even imagine the pain of someone dying of wounds by a mace?

What is the difference between killing in public and making love in a private place?

Someone said "It does nothing for the comminity" ... in this I hardly disagree. It does very much for the community, for it is a expression of the relationship of two characters. AND: It's much, much more RP than stupidly punching each other with a sword.

I saw so much really good roleplay in the consequences of such scenes. did you ever see some of the mothers with their babies in Illarion? Those are some of the highlights of Roleplay in Illarion. And .. those are very well-played consequences. >>smile<<

So: if it takes place in private places .. why not?
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Llama
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Post by Llama »

I can give you 2 good differences there is.

Firstly, violence has grades, similar to sexual scenes. Killing someone doesn't have to be explicitly stated, and in fact it shouldn't be.

Example 1: #me swings his sword at the bandit, hitting his arm
Example 2: #me swings the sword at the bandit, the sword cuts sharply through the bandit's arm
Example 3: #me swings the sword at the bandit, the sword reaches the arm, cutting strips of skin into ribbons, and spraying droplets of blood everywhere, complimented with an exctacy of pain, as the arm dangles uselessly, fingers mangled and fragments of bone showing.

(If you want more examples of over-played violence, ask to read one of my stories)

Similarly, you can have grades of sexual acts. You don't have to describe each scene in the detail of example 3. Problem is, you can't cyber unless you do. So if you prefer a

#me sleeps with the lady.

Then you can compare it to the violence.

---

Another difference is the motive. I really can't see why someone should roleplay a sexual scene unless its for his or her own sexual amusement.

"But its part of roleplay!"

You can do without, you don't have to pretend to be chaste either.

From my perspective, all you're doing is exciting yourself sexually over two characters. . .

If you're that desperate, there are a lot of adult chat rooms, and even adult Sexual RPGs which you can play.
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Sundo Raca
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Post by Sundo Raca »

rofl. The idea that sex can never count as rp is hilarious. So basically, sex in real life is a mindless, meaningless act with no variance, problems, difference or character related issues?

Dont get me wrong, people do cyber purely for the 'thrill', but there are also those who do it/have done it simply as they see it as part of roleplay, and dont happen to be prudes.

Maybe smoking sibanac should be banned too? People are clearly simply fantisising about weed. Disgusting.

Im not saying theres anything wrong with having an issue with 'cyber' ig. I get that. But for some people, sex ig is not so different to any other thing their character does. *shrug*
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Post by Pellandria »

I think the "idea" behind this rule is just downright useless, Illarion will never be a "childs" game, it will never have the one fish in the pond against titants liek WoW or Guildwars or Eve or however they are all called, we got too much bugs, the figthing system just is not flashy enough, all characters look the same and our general graphic, as awesome as it is for such few people to create such stuff, it will never appeal to the eye of children, furthermore I wonder how many "child" player we got, I think Illarion always was a mature game, we got mostly people from 16/17 up to even over 40, if you now target a younger audience you ~will~ fail.

The reasons behind it is easy, no one freaking cares about a roleplaying game at ~this~ age.
True roleplaying is a dieing genre, at least in the I-Net, most people think roleplaying involves changing the appeareance of ones char a bit and running around leveling up all day, this is not what Illarion should boil down, but it will ultimatly boil down to exactly that and I don't think that the staff wants to loose their whole playerbase just for the sake off having 2 or 3 younger player,s who could be offended by the gameintend.
I'm honest here I rather have a more mature community, which drifts off in elitism (is that even a word?) instead of a younger community, where no one could roleplay his way out of a wet paper bag.

I guess the staff must rather decide, do they cut off a very large part of the game for the sake off a few miserable 13 year old players, who stay in the game for a few days or do they want to keep the more matur crowd, allright some don't act mature on the board atleast, which than atleast have more rp instead of smithing and figthing all day long.

Another argument I never really undestood is the always mentioned "getting off while playing it" I don't know what people do during their cyber plays, but I honestly can't think of a way to keep sentences long, while you are occupied in some sort of...other things.
Saying that you cyber simple for the rpg experience has atleast more sense, than saying you stand inside a cave whacking at monster for the sake of character development.

But if we keep this on we must finally ban alcohol from the game aswell, because noone should be allowed to play drunks, even if there are allready alarming numbers of children/teenager who drink more alcohol than some adults do.
Furthermore no Lichs, demons, sceletons, Zombies, other Races and more, because seriously undeads roaming around and other races, that is just not suitable for children.
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Nerian Finera
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Post by Nerian Finera »

I'd just like to add one simple argument to this discussion:

Sex belongs into one's real life, not into a game.
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Sundo Raca
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Post by Sundo Raca »

Nerian Finera wrote:I'd just like to add one simple argument to this discussion:

Sex belongs into one's real life, not into a game.
I could honestly say the same thing about eating or drinking. Walking around a field belongs in real life. Having a snowball fight belongs in real life. How are any of these things different from sex in your argument? :?
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Rhandarja Opalin
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Post by Rhandarja Opalin »

Nerian Finera wrote:Sex belongs into one's real life, not into a game.
Ah ... and violence belongs into a game, because there's not enough violence in real life?

isn't this double-moral?
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Post by LifeWonder »

It's amazing how modern society has discretely blurred the line between private and public domain.
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The Returner
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Post by The Returner »

well, I for one think there's too many people on this forum who can't seem to stop discussion on something they were ordered to by a GM .....
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Rhandarja Opalin
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Post by Rhandarja Opalin »

I think, Pella brought it to the point. Where do we (or the staff .. as I count them to "we") to go with Illarion.

Do we want one more of those MMORPGs, where 10 years olds running around with big swords, punching monsters for the sake of levelling up?

Then, kick the Sex out of the game.

Or do we want an "Roleplaying Game" which is worth it's name? A Game of interacting, developing a character not only by the skills and so on?

Then leave the Sex into the game.
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Lillian
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Post by Lillian »

Well I have to agree with Hadrian on this one. I really don't see why someone would rp a sexual scene with all its naughty details but for his or hers own sexual pleasure.

And all arguments I read so far pro sex are somehow hilarious. In an rpg game you can get kids even without rping the sexual scene because after all it IS an rpg game.

If it's an important part of the characters life because it is also an important part in real life, than why have I never seen someone IG who really had to pee? Or a woman who had her menstruation? After all this is highly important if your female char ever wants to have kids.

Illarion is a FANTASY roleplay game and NOT a projection of the real word into the internet. It is in some points idealistic ie most female characters are beautiful, sweet and everything a guy could wish for and most male characters are strong, handsome and everything a girl could wish for and the most idealistic thing ever: You cannot die.

Maybe we should change this too since dieing really is the most important thing in ones life.

But after all no one can make you follow this rule. If someone wants to cyber, he or she will do it no matter what the rules say (Who reads rules anyway...).
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Post by WickedEwok »

I think you don't seem to get the point.

It is not about making love in public, but rather when playing out the sexual intercourse with another player, the OTHER PERSON could be a minor. How'd you know? It's, as far as I understood it, not about the danger of some kid accidently seeing the action, but about the fact, that the very person you have your little CS-session with could be a kid. End.

It's also interesting to see how important fucking around is for your character's history.
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Post by Llama »

Rhandarja Opalin wrote:Do we want one more of those MMORPGs, where 10 years olds running around with big swords, punching monsters for the sake of levelling up?

Then, kick the Sex out of the game.
Your argument has more holes in it then a kitchen sieve.

Is the only GAP between 10 year olds and 'running around with big sword' sex?

Is sex 100% needed to roleplay? Is GRAPHIC sex 100% needed to roleplay? No its not.

Sure children come from mummy and daddy's naughty time, but you don't have to roleplay it in graphic detail.

If you want to have roleplay sexual relationships, there are adult games which are DESIGNED for you to do just that, or hell, open a chat room, and pretend you're having sex. Illarion has no mechanics/graphics which help you, unless "She wears nothing at the top part of her body" turns you on.
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Post by Pellandria »

Lillian wrote: If it's an important part of the characters life because it is also an important part in real life, than why have I never seen someone IG who really had to pee?
Allready saw several people do that.
Lillian wrote: Or a woman who had her menstruation?
Allready saw several people play it out + 2 times my char had to explain what it is, so what is your point "I don't see it, thus it does not exist"?
Lillian wrote: You cannot die.
We got graveyards..we have several perma died people and you are telling me people can't die...do we even play the ~same~ game?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WickedEwok wrote:I think you don't seem to get the point.

It is not about making love in public, but rather when playing out the sexual intercourse with another player, the OTHER PERSON could be a minor. How'd you know? It's, as far as I understood it, not about the danger of some kid accidently seeing the action, but about the fact, that the very person you have your little CS-session with could be a kid. End.

It's also interesting to see how important fucking around is for your character's history.
So where is your point here?
"There is a possibility that someone does something, he/she is not allowed to do IN the first place", instead of making the game avaible for a younger crowd illarion should go exactly the other direction, don't allow minors into the game, as far as I know its supposed to be a +16 game anyway.

How about we just kick the magic system or the figthing system, how many people would complain and how about we argue with "Omg a small kid could see the ~bloodspot~ on the ground and could get some kind trauma".

If you start taking away rp from the player you will one day just take away more and more and more, not to add that these rules are written down in a way where even a simple hug or the healing of a wound could count as gore or sexual, sniffs more like another Gm way to annoy and ban people for their own amusement.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hadrian_Abela wrote: Is sex 100% needed to roleplay? Is GRAPHIC sex 100% needed to roleplay? No its not.
Sure children come from mummy and daddy's naughty time, but you don't have to roleplay it in graphic detail.
This Argument is as flawed as it can get, yet it always comes up again and again, because this argument fits to ~every~ freaking situation in Illarion, is one needed to graphical explain how he sews a wound shut, how he drinks a beer, how he stumbels over something and gets a bloody nose?
"No its not", seriously if you want white washed rp, then I will love to see future top rp like
"#me is wounded"
"#me is healing the wounded"
"#me is slashing at the man"
"#me is getting slashed and is wounded"
"#me heals the wounded"
or other brilliant sentences liek
"#me makes love to her"
"#me quiete enjoys such"

Not to forget how children now will be born.
!broadcast ~the earth trembels as the gods clap their migthy hands, giving birth to another char~
Hadrian_Abela wrote: If you want to have roleplay sexual relationships, there are adult games which are DESIGNED for you to do just that, or hell, open a chat room, and pretend you're having sex.
That would complettly go agaisnt the fact that one is doing this kind of rp for his/her chars, if I do that, than its simply for the sake of the plaer, not the char, not to mention that we could jsut put a complet hold on anything "love" related unless Illarion is the fantasy world of platonic friendships.
Hadrian_Abela wrote: Illarion has no mechanics/graphics which help you, unless "She wears nothing at the top part of her body" turns you on.
Allright, every time you now Rp something not engine supported I will just tell a Gm to punish you, because obviously youforgot your own words, gonna love how everyone will look, sound, move just like the next guy.
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Post by Taeryon Silverlight »

Pellandria wrote:
Lillian wrote: If it's an important part of the characters life because it is also an important part in real life, than why have I never seen someone IG who really had to pee?
Allready saw several people do that.
Lillian wrote: Or a woman who had her menstruation?
Allready saw several people play it out + 2 times my char had to explain what it is, so what is your point "I don't see it, thus it does not exist"?
Lillian wrote: You cannot die.
We got graveyards..we have several perma died people and you are telling me people can't die...do we even play the ~same~ game?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WickedEwok wrote:I think you don't seem to get the point.

It is not about making love in public, but rather when playing out the sexual intercourse with another player, the OTHER PERSON could be a minor. How'd you know? It's, as far as I understood it, not about the danger of some kid accidently seeing the action, but about the fact, that the very person you have your little CS-session with could be a kid. End.

It's also interesting to see how important fucking around is for your character's history.
So where is your point here?
"There is a possibility that someone does something, he/she is not allowed to do IN the first place", instead of making the game avaible for a younger crowd illarion should go exactly the other direction, don't allow minors into the game, as far as I know its supposed to be a +16 game anyway.

How about we just kick the magic system or the figthing system, how many people would complain and how about we argue with "Omg a small kid could see the ~bloodspot~ on the ground and could get some kind trauma".

If you start taking away rp from the player you will one day just take away more and more and more, not to add that these rules are written down in a way where even a simple hug or the healing of a wound could count as gore or sexual, sniffs more like another Gm way to annoy and ban people for their own amusement.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hadrian_Abela wrote: Is sex 100% needed to roleplay? Is GRAPHIC sex 100% needed to roleplay? No its not.
Sure children come from mummy and daddy's naughty time, but you don't have to roleplay it in graphic detail.
This Argument is as flawed as it can get, yet it always comes up again and again, because this argument fits to ~every~ freaking situation in Illarion, is one needed to graphical explain how he sews a wound shut, how he drinks a beer, how he stumbels over something and gets a bloody nose?
"No its not", seriously if you want white washed rp, then I will love to see future top rp like
"#me is wounded"
"#me is healing the wounded"
"#me is slashing at the man"
"#me is getting slashed and is wounded"
"#me heals the wounded"
or other brilliant sentences liek
"#me makes love to her"
"#me quiete enjoys such"

Not to forget how children now will be born.
!broadcast ~the earth trembels as the gods clap their migthy hands, giving birth to another char~
Hadrian_Abela wrote: If you want to have roleplay sexual relationships, there are adult games which are DESIGNED for you to do just that, or hell, open a chat room, and pretend you're having sex.
That would complettly go agaisnt the fact that one is doing this kind of rp for his/her chars, if I do that, than its simply for the sake of the plaer, not the char, not to mention that we could jsut put a complet hold on anything "love" related unless Illarion is the fantasy world of platonic friendships.
Hadrian_Abela wrote: Illarion has no mechanics/graphics which help you, unless "She wears nothing at the top part of her body" turns you on.
Allright, every time you now Rp something not engine supported I will just tell a Gm to punish you, because obviously youforgot your own words, gonna love how everyone will look, sound, move just like the next guy.
completely agreed.
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Post by Faladron »

The Returner wrote:well, I for one think there's too many people on this forum who can't seem to stop discussion on something they were ordered to by a GM .....
Faladron wrote:As I know 4-5 people will be completely dull and neglecting about what Zak pointed out, as NOT to discuss any further about rule 9 first case, in the other thread, you can do so here.
And I for one think I had a flaw in my motivation to start this thread...

There are more than 4-5 people arguing already. :wink:

But so far things keep at a reasonable argumentative level, and the 17~ posts made here do not clutter up the other thread so I do not think the harm done with discussing here exceeds the hard feelings people would have boiled up when they would have been ordered to "shut up".
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Post by Mairae Auvria »

not to mention that we could jsut put a complet hold on anything "love" related unless Illarion is the fantasy world of platonic friendships.
The baby was conceived by the couple, and born with the help of the Druid and friends on msn :lol:



This is not about cyber totally but about adult RP versus kid RP. Is that what Illarion wants? How many children will actually be attracted to this game that has a lot less graphic/kid appeal then most? The RP aspect is what is attractive to most and this is mainly more mature people.

The most graphic thing I saw when first starting to play was the entrails. Is Illa going to have no more of those also?

All games online have to rely on what they are told regarding the age. Under a certain age should require guardian consent to play. Further I am guessing underage can be designated as that ig?
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Post by Nerian Finera »

Rhandarja Opalin wrote:
Nerian Finera wrote:Sex belongs into one's real life, not into a game.
Ah ... and violence belongs into a game, because there's not enough violence in real life?

isn't this double-moral?
I'd rather see someone getting rid of his agression by killing virtual beings, than someone earning sexual pleasure through a game. So basically...yes...violence in a game helps keeping a psychic balance (of course that's a quite crude explanation :wink:), whereas having sex with a fictional figure seems to me like a method to avoid this issue in RL.
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Rhandarja Opalin
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Post by Rhandarja Opalin »

Nerian Finera wrote: I'd rather see someone getting rid of his agression by killing virtual beings, than someone earning sexual pleasure through a game. So basically...yes...violence in a game helps keeping a psychic balance (of course that's a quite crude explanation :wink:), whereas having sex with a fictional figure seems to me like a method to avoid this issue in RL.
Hmmmm .. so everyone, who has Cybersex has a non-satsifactory sex-life in RL?
Everyone, who has cybersex has some abnormal, hidden desires?

Ok, let's take an real example ... me.

I'm 41 years old, have two children and a realy fullfilling sexlife. And I do cyber .. sometimes. So, I think I'm qualified for talking about IG and RL-Sex. :)

Very interesting: My IG-Sexlife isn't different from my RL-Sexlife, except that some of Chars have a more .. perfect body then mine. Does cyber turn me on? Sometimes ... it depends on the situation and on the mood, in which I am.

Cyberscenes were the most sensuals scenes I ever encountered in online RP. Why? Because for such scenes at least two Chars ... and two persons behind those Chars have to agree with this scene. Such scenes produce lots and lots of text ... you can't do this with one hand on the keyboard and the other hand elsewhere.

Yes, cyber in illa is not engine-supported, neither it will be in the future. And yes, there are online-communities esp. for this. But .. this is not the same. In such communities everything depends on sex. There you find those persons, you describe as the typicel "cyberers". They never will come to Illa ... because cyber isn't engine-supportes. They never will write lots of text. (BTW: It's the same reason, why you don't find in Illa the typical WoW-er)

An "online-rape" is impossible, because the victim can call the GM or at least it can logg off, if it's not comfortable with this scene. Bith sindes have to agree with this, what will happen.

Some years ago, one of chars was raped (not in Illa) .. but this was under my agreement and it was the start for a longer campaign.

The other side can be a minor .. yes .. and if I notice a child on the other side, I will stop Immediatly. BUT: I'm not responsible for age-verfication, nor I'm responsible for the child of the other side. The parents of this child are reponsible for everything, there kids are doing ... esp. on the Internet. And so I am for my children.

On the other side... it's possible to go behind, who's playing with you. You will notice it on how he plays ... how he describes, what he (or she) is doing ... the "Art of Writing". No child can describe a sensual (and sexual) situation like a experienced mature can do. If it can ... there's something wrong. Not with me .. but with the child and with his parents.

Violence and Sex are part of life of our Chars ... and nothing of both need to kept off Illa.

Ok, this was long .. maybe too long for my english. I'm a native German-speaker .. maybe in german, this post would much better describe my opinion.
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Post by Korm Kormsen »

well, i did not cyber till now, and i do not plan to do it.
but if somebody else has fun doing it, let them.

if i read these threads, everybody very ernest, a little angry...
is that our way to have fun??
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Post by Julius »

I propose making a isle for cybering!

Comelot, Isle of Sirani, Rothman Isle, or Cybonia are all good names.
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Post by Toran »

In my opinion, the question is not:
Why should it be allowed to play sexual scenes.

The question is:
Why should it NOT be allowed for two adults to play those scenes as part of their roleplay, the relationship and love of their chars, at a place where no one else (including minors) can see or hear anything? For example in a deep forest, where people only whisper some words?

It seems to be ridiculous to do roleplay but stop after a kiss.
This is a fantasy-game, but we are playing it from a point of view of the third millennium, don't we? Freedom and tolerance are real and should be practiced, as long as the minors aren't enabled to participate this form of playing.
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Rhandarja Opalin
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Post by Rhandarja Opalin »

Julius wrote:I propose making a isle for cybering!

Comelot, Isle of Sirani, Rothman Isle, or Cybonia are all good names.
"Killing Grounds" for fighting
"Weed Corner" for smoking Sibanac
"Fluffy Sheep Tavern" for drinking alcohol

you see the nonsense in your suggestion?
Toran wrote:The question is:
Why should it NOT be allowed for two adults to play those scenes as part of their roleplay, the relationship and love of their chars, at a place where no one else (including minors) can see or hear anything?
Absolute right ... why should it not be allowed as long as it does not disturb any other?
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Post by Skaalib Drurr »

Toran wrote:In my opinion, the question is not:
Why should it be allowed to play sexual scenes.

The question is:
Why should it NOT be allowed for two adults to play those scenes as part of their roleplay, the relationship and love of their chars, at a place where no one else (including minors) can see or hear anything? For example in a deep forest, where people only whisper some words?
No, that is absolutely not the question. The question has been posed by gms, who decided that actually it is a bad thing, so you should be arguing why the rule should be changed.
Why not in intself is not an arguement.
People seem to have taken this into some grand philosophical debate. If you want that, this can go in off-topic.
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Post by Rhandarja Opalin »

Skaalib Drurr wrote:People seem to have taken this into some grand philosophical debate. If you want that, this can go in off-topic.
Yes ... and No.

Yes ... it's an philosophical debate. But it's a debate about game philosophie. Thus, it's not off-topic.
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Post by Llama »

@ Pell who seems to have misunderstood my arguments:

Graphic violence is ILLEGAL as well.

#me strikes at the sheep, making its entrials drop out of the sides
#me grabs the entrails and wraps them around the sheep's neck, throttling it in its own blood and filth.

That is just as likely to get me warned by the gms.

ALSO

LEGALLY (fal?) explicit sexual scenes -> Adults Only Rating.

Remember the controversy due to the "Hot Coffee Mod" which was found in GTA? A perfectally innocent game involving shooting policeman and stealing cars.. having a sexual scene!

Now, if we want to leave explicit sexual scenes, we'd need to make sure that adults only can play this game. (Fal, please correct me if I'm wrong).

So we need to have "You agree that you are over the legal age for sexual activity in your country" checks. Which have as much chance of being put in as swish1 winning the Nobel Prize.
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Now, you seem to say "If it has death, why not sex?"

Let me give an example of a game that has death, the settlers 3. When killed, the settlers disappear and turn into angels which float up. Rating of that game is PG at most.

In the postal series, death is gruesome, and you can urinate on the remains if you so wish. Rating of that game is adult only.

BUT THEY BOTH CONTAIN DEATH!

Its the 'level' of violence which determines stuff.

In Illarion, the worst thing that happens is the blood splatter being shown, and you turn into a ghost. If you roleplay it gruesomely, its illegal.
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Now what i meant with mechanics is this.

Illarion is a ROLEPLAYING game. Therefore it should be the case that mechanics aid that.

If I'm playing a game, who's goal is to kill things gruesomely, you'd expect the game to actually help you do that. I could play a FPS or dwarf fort or something.

If I'm playing a game, who's goal is to have sex with animated graphics, you'd expect the game to try to help you. You can play [host of adult games and stuff]
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