Wrestling in Illarion

[Logrin Parr]

Now I know this topic has cropped up before, and that it has it's supporters and those against it for valid reasons on both ends.

I am of the oppinion that wrestling is underpowered in comparison to other weapons and would like to make a few points and suggestions of my own here.

Please do not sight historical references or anything else here, as it is just a thought on how to better balance wrestling as a weapon. Any other helpful suggestions are more than welcome however

Many beleive that wrestling should be useless, as it never breaks or needs to be repaired like a sword, that if it were as viable a weapon as a sword or axe, it would impact the economy. To this I completely agree.

That being said I would suggest, much like in real life the possibility of breaking your fists.This would force those who rely on wrestling to keep there hands in good shape, perhaps druids would be able to apply ointments like a smith would repair weapons and armor. And if the hand was broken from the fighter not seeing a druid he would have no choice but to seek healing. The only difference between a fist and a sword in this scenario is a druid instead of a smith

That was my first suggestion, they are ment to be taken in part or as a whole, what ever would work best in the majority opion. that being said, my next suggestion

knowing that a fist is not a sword some would think, you should not be able to parry one, and that armor should basically trump the wrestle, to this I disagree. In illarion a man of sufficiant skill can demolish a stone golem with a sword, and parry it's blows. So it is safe to assume the difference between blocking a sword with your arm and stopping tonnes of raw stone with a peice of metal is basically no existant. I do believe the sword, or rather high end swords should be stronger than a fist, without a doubt, but I think that a person of suffiant skill in this world would have an iron like body from all the monsters he/she fought and at least be able to parry blows from a weapon provided the wrestler had a reaonable degree of skill

If neither of those suggestions strike you as appealing I offer one more

have a wrestler equip bracers over his forearms in the weapon slots to allow him to parry weapons and increase damage in wrestling, the better the material of the bracer the more it provides the chance to parry and increases attack. This isn't the most inventive of my suggestions but it is a suggestion

Lastly a few suggestions so bare bones that they need no explaination

It could be faster, more hits for less damage

It could have a greater chance for a critical hit

It could, as you would be pushing and pulling your opponent around, drain their fatique more quickly than other weapons, so that the opponent would be hungry and tired near the end of the fight

That is all I have to suggest at the momment,
Peace be with all those of illarion

-Parr

[Rincewind]

wrestling is just a fake.

wrestling make people wuhudabuhu!

wrestling is just brute brutal viloence.

greetings
Rincewind

edit:

uh!! you didn't mean this things, wich are showed in Tv..
sorry(in German we have more diffrent words for fight with your fists.)

[Rhianna Morgan]

I think this is a good idea as for one reason:

You actually CAN create huge damage with your hands if they are trained. Sports like Karate, Jiu-Jitsu, Judo and Boxing would not make any sense otherwise.

But I think it is most unlikely to kill someone with your hands... despite you strangle your opponent. Perhaps it should be impossible to give someone the "blow of mercy" with your fists as weapons and people with certain gloves should cause more damage/be better protected than people without gloves.
So you should be able to beat someone up with your fists, but if he/she has a weapon you stand no chance unless you are far better skilled. This could make duels more interessting (and also the opportunity of bar fights), if you don't want someone to die, the opponents fight without weapons.

The thing with the druids "repairing" broken fists like smiths repair weapons is a bit strange. They would have to use strong magic to heal and refix broken bones, which naturally takes at least six weeks. If the bones are all messed up after a serious fight and therefore no longer on their places, it would be logical if the hand could never be used again or at least not for a while. If someone cuts off your arm you can't use it also.

[Pellandria]

Hmm I think certain knuckles or braces/underarm protectiv gear could work to parry, but it would still hurt someone while doing so.

How about we include something like "Claws" as a weapon, it still would be very much like figthing with your fists, but you actually would have metal to pierce trougth armors and such, even if you could say a slashing motion is more usefull than a piercing.

On the other side much Karate figthers and such only attack "unarmored" opponents, yes it was developed by a "figthing class", but still hammering your fist against a sturdy metal plate can result in nasty bonebreaking action, even trougth some people can chop wood in two halves, but to say that wood is as strong as bones or even metal is pretty much wrong.

But figthing without any help and then "parry" blows from swords or waraxes, I seriously doubt it, if someone stabs you then you bleed, doesn't matter how trained you are, you get stabbed results in bleeding and yes I know there once was a human being who could be pierced trougth his body without bleeding, but this was not a fight at all.


To summarize it: if a fistfigther would get something like Knuckels or bracers or even claw he could be a strong opponent, but as almost everyone runs around in full plate armor hitting any vulnerable spots is mostly out of question, damaging an armor itself with bare fists or parrying might be out of question aswell.

[Gro'bul]

I think a wrestler's primary objective would be to disarm his opponant first, then try subdue him. Wrestling is less about killing and more about submission anyway.

[Llama]

In reality, very few things could punch through platemail. Even the knights fighting was really just hitting the guy with your sword until he collapsed with tiredness. Taking down people wearing full plate would have either needed a crossbow bolt from close range, or knocking him down and stabbing him through the eye, or through a leather strap.

Now, if we were to add 'weapons' which use the wrestling skill, I think everybody would be happy. It wont damage the economy, and it'll be an interesting skill to have.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

Or maybe someone should come with a whole new wresling system concept


p.s: Gro'bul is right, thats how it's supposed to be

[Athian]

have a wrestler equip bracers over his forearms in the weapon slots to allow him to parry weapons and increase damage in wrestling, the better the material of the bracer the more it provides the chance to parry and increases attack. This isn't the most inventive of my suggestions but it is a suggestion

an item used for parry it not a bad idea so long as they have a gneral effectiveness.

for example "wooden bracers" are great for blocking puntcure type weapons, but terrible for swords and concussion weapons.

"Thick steel bracers" are good for taking cuncussion blows, but they are slow and not very effective against swift weapons like swords and daggers.

It could be faster, more hits for less damage

Doesn't need to be much faster, try building up your tactic's along with your wrestling to a fair level and you'll see. Wrestling is faster then most weapons.

It could have a greater chance for a critical hit

The faster you hit the more chances for criticals you have so this goes along with the prior. Of course the criticals are negated mostly by thick armor. it makes sense the wrestling criticals barely do damage to those in armor. but the damage could be increaed for those wearing no or light armor (though there aren't many people who do that).

What might be nice is if wrestling attacked different body parts throughout the duration of a fight. this way if an opponent has a weak spot in his armor it can be better exploited. AND all those people who buy expensive armor will think twice before getting the old 'dragon' treatment on all there expensive items.

p.s.

forgot one part. Since we have a new knock down system, wrestling could be made to be the only nonlethal form of fighting. So even a downed character wouldn't be killed by it. In return it could get a bit of a strenght boost to make it useful. It would become a good tool for the characters that need a defensive skill but don't want a fighter character.

[ThisGuy]

I like the idea of weapons for wrestling. I also think you could kill someone unarmed, if you knock your opponent out you could easilly walk up and break thier neck(if you know what you're doing).

[Gro'bul]

platemail

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/N ... 15th_C.jpg
Theres not really any plated mail in Illarion. This term is quite erroneous, displaying your overall lack of knowlage in the subject.

Field plate (something you would march into battle with) typically 40-60lbs. Not nearly as heavy, cumbersome, or immobile as jousting armor.

A two handed sword can cut through 16ga (1.5mm). Axes, poleaxes, maces, spears, halberds, picks, war hammers, lances, and most crossbows (given a direct hit, armor is specifically designed for deflections) could pierce plate.

About the only thing I wouldn't take to fight someone in plate is a single handed sword. Not enough mass, not enough control, not enough length. Easier to be disarmed (like by a wrestler) .

[Daelyn]

In reality, very few things could punch through platemail. Even the knights fighting was really just hitting the guy with your sword until he collapsed with tiredness. Taking down people wearing full plate would have either needed a crossbow bolt from close range, or knocking him down and stabbing him through the eye, or through a leather strap.

Now, if we were to add 'weapons' which use the wrestling skill, I think everybody would be happy. It wont damage the economy, and it'll be an interesting skill to have.

Or an arrow from a longbow, 200 meters away... When longbows became popular armours went out of use. Youve got a point though... Stuff like Karate, judo, Kung Fu etc. is 80% bs. Bottom line is that you cant hurt anyone in full armour with your fists, unless you get close enough to strangle you opponent, and thats rather unlikely if she is wieling a sword.

Still would be cool to see martials artist experts in Illa though. Personally I think realism is important, but when it comes to this it's worth loosing a little realism imo.

[Colin Smalls]

Id like to make a completely different suggestion.

Wrestling is actually an ancient western martial art, and medieval knights trained in it as much as with a sword. Fights rarely ever involved two men swinging swords at each other's shields. You used whatever bodypart you could to hurt/subdue your opponent. Since society in illarion seems mainly based on medieval western europe, i think this applies.

Why not have wrestling impact your skill with other (close combat) weapons? Keep it (on its own) as weak, but a better wrestler should receive a bonus to their attack for when fighting with a close combat weapon. This may sound complicated, but it would definitely be realistic.

[Pellandria]

and then we have another skill chars can powergame to kill other chars even faster...

[Colin Smalls]

Its the same for everyone though. And it forces fighters to be more versatile instead of just constantly powering up one or two skills. Not to mention realistic. Why are you complaining?

[Pellandria]

because that would mean that those, who aren't training so much anyway, will yet again punished for not doing so and those who seem to fail the "goal" of the game, that is rp'ing and not gaining x amount of skill, can even kill "normal" chars much faster, like they couldn't allready to beginn with.

[Jupiter]

Pellandria, the argument "No new skills, because some guys will pg them and are abel to kill not-pger easier" is senseless.
It doesn't play a role if there is one skill or 1000 skills.

[Hu'greu]

no she does have the right idea I think

what she saying is it just punish the people that would rather RP fights then getting skill point and watching the *amazing* graphical fights..

to me wrestling should be mostly RP just because... well it leads to more and better RP.


I know I enjoy the few RP I have gotten into and even manged to get aways strictly based on RP. If I just used the crtl click I would have lost for sure and got taken away to jail.

[Pellandria]

Its not sensless, let me say it this way.

Wrestling gets new weapons, new skill and gets an overall new "meaning"-> yes.

Wrestling influences other skills, making them more "useless", if you don't know wrestling -> no.

Punishing players, just because they aren't skilling they char like everyone and their dog, is sensless, let the figthing skill be usefull against certaint other figthing styles, but don't punish others, just because they don't want to skill yet another skill, which normally doesn't even fit in their role.

Would something like the influence be included, then we have all kidns of people pg'ing wrestling, just because they know they gain an advantage.

Ohh and every fight should be only rp'ed anyway, but try to do it and you will see that most people just let their skills come into play.

[Hu'greu]

well I think the combat system is there to stop disputes though, and it gives you a sense of who you are suppose to be able to win against them or not.

[Llama]

For once, I agree with pellandria.

Currently fighting needs:

Weapon Skill, Parry, Dodge, Tactics

You add another skill, there's more to train, and a greater gap 'rewarding' the Pgers.

Give nice weapons which use wrestling, and we'll all be happy.

[Athian]

I like the idea of weapons for wrestling. I also think you could kill someone unarmed, if you knock your opponent out you could easilly walk up and break thier neck(if you know what you're doing).

Not an opponent wearing thick metal armor, by the time you find his 'neck' You'll have gotten yourself chopped in half

But thats besides the point. Wrestling should be a nonlethal but effective art IMO for several reasons.

Firstly as i said opponents won't be wearing plain clothing and have easily accessible body parts in most cases. You knock down an opponent, then in the time it would take to strip them of there defense for a finishing blow they'd be up and ready to go again.

Secondly, weapon or not it's still going to be the only fighting skill trainable while NOT using a weapon. if that were the case then it really would be an overpowered skill. So if it were a lethal skill i would definatly vote against ever giving it weapons.

Thirdly, the point is that it's supposed to be a 'hand to hand' combat skill. If the Dev's wanted it to have weapons to begin with then I'm sure they could and would have created weapons for it. The idea of defensive items like bracer's doesn't really sully the concept of 'hand to hand' combat. But the moment you add anything to it other that it's not longer what it was meant to be.

And lastly, not every character wants to use a weapon. I constantly see crafter's having to deck out in armor to learn combat so that they don't get killed by pg'ers, newbs, or roaming monsters. Since combat still defeats npc's it would give some players the option of having a character that can defend oneself from attacks without killing other characters, which i think might fit some players character roles much better. Also there is no reason i see that a knight or warrior is going to rush into battle with his fists during an age where people are carrying armor and weapons. It's simply not effective and shouldn't be made effective in a way where it would surpass weapons combat.

Making it useful (even highly effective) but Nonlethal would keep it in a frame where it wouldn't become completely overpowered.

[ThisGuy]

if it is made nonlethal(I see no point in that) it just means every wrestler will carry a crappy weapon for a finishing blow...

which seems more realistic, fighting with your fist then pulling out a weapon to finish someone after you won or beating someone senseless and breaking thier neck?

if its meant to be simply unarmed then it couldn't be just punching. There would be throws, holds, kicks, knees, eye gouges, and lots of other things to take advantage of your opponent. With all that added how then are you still having to break through thier defenses after a knock out before a fatal blow? and if none of that exists then why not have such things as brass knuckles, fist spikes, spiked edge bracers, and iron claws? just a few weapon ideas

[Athian]

Simply put, the moment you put anything into your hands it's stops being hand to hand combat. Weapons of that style are meant to enhance forms and techniques used in hand to hand BUT they are still WEAPONS. meaning that there use automatically negates the concept on unarmed combat.

And if your enemy did pull out a weapon to make a finishing blow it would be more reasonable. More so then you landing some mythically powerful blow into someones full body armor that somehow kills him. And also keep in mind that the character is knocked down, not knocked out. Knock out/death however it's rped comes with the blow placed after the knockdown.

Also it is meant to be unarmed combat, but you aren't taking into mind just how much a full set of armor might stifle a throw, eye gouge, knee or kick. Outside of the general inertia the moves would cause they would do terribly small damage over all and they wouldn't be lethal for sure. I'm saying lets scrap the hyper realism and let the skill do some damage, but the skill itself would have some draw backs, IF it didn't then i expect the staff would probably never even consider making it any better.

It seems you don't recalls back when a single alpha wolf could kill a half dozen trained fighters if not more otherwise you'd probably understand ho overpowered such a skill can get.

As a tag on for all your weapons. they aren't wrestling or unarmed combat weapons. they are merely technique enhancers.

Brass knuckles: concussion weapon
Spiked edge Bracers: Puncture weapon
Iron Claw: Slashing weapon.

[ThisGuy]

but the skill isn't unarmed combat its wrestling...as a non fighter I won't argue much but: not everyone wears armor(I don't even own armor except a few pieces I haven't sold yet) not all players carry great weapons(again I only have things I haven't sold yet) but I do wrestle for fun from time to time

since you brought up inertia
sidestep and trip, russian leg sweep, hip toss...
landing face first into a piece of metal hurts and a guy in heavy armor hitting the ground is going to take a while to get up, in that time the backs of thier knees, elbows, and other joints where the armor is weaker would be taking quite a stomping(atleast from me) making it even harder for them to get up and even harder to fight once the are...

[CJK]

[quote="Athian"]Simply put, the moment you put anything into your hands it's stops being hand to hand combat. Weapons of that style are meant to enhance forms and techniques used in hand to hand BUT they are still WEAPONS.
Also it is meant to be unarmed combat, but you aren't taking into mind just how much a full set of armor might stifle a throw, eye gouge, knee or kick. Outside of the general inertia the moves would cause they would do terribly small damage over all and they wouldn't be lethal for sure. Brass knuckles: concussion weapon
[quote]
Brass knuckles should be a wrestling thing. i mean if you were to use brass knuckles its like a boxer with boxing gloves.... just more..... painfull.
But also Wrestling is just unused now ig except by a rare few (logrin included) I mean my main char is a (practically) pure wrestler. For some reason wrestling is treated as unused and unimportant in combat.
For an example of a world famous army that thought wrestling important try....... SPARTA! The spartan women were well trained in wrestling just like the men were. The women for self-defense. The men because it trains you for daggers (quick thrust), swords (heavy blow) and just about everything else they needed.