The community as a whole

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Julius
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The community as a whole

Post by Julius »

There are several problems with the game of Illarion today that.. causing me (among others) to not even have the urge to play or rp anymore. Senseless disputes in ooc, ooc flaming on the boards because of what someone is doing ig, and other things that lead to not only a negative environment for certain players but also a place that has been drained of all fun.

The problem of OOC flaming in this community has been going on since before I was here even. It's understandable because some players cannot accept loss. Is there a real way to break this pattern of players retreating to the boards after something doesn't go there way ig? I think so. People seem to forget that the person behind the screen is not the character.

Personally, I play Julius nothing like my self. If I played him like myself, Julius would be.. almost completely opposite. Personally, I think the GMs need to do something to end the OOC abuse. I've had GMs tell me that players have used the !gm function for things such as:

- Losing a item.
- Being killed.
- A character insulting another character.
- Etc.

Now, of course the above things are most likely noobies. But still.. how would they get the idea that such actions ig are wrong? The forums are a major place. I'll bet that at least 70% of the OT boards are used for Off Topic flaming. I've contributed to that percentage in the past, and it's something that I am not proud of. I almost puke when I see flaming no a days.

How can we change this? Perhaps add a more active mod group so that players are not so hostile and if they are, there messages will be deleted. The only real outcome that I could see working would be for the community to actually grow up and act there age and stop crying over a game. It's caused me to not even want to log on anymore because IF my character (The only one doing anything really interesting ig at the moment, excluding the ones helping him) does something that causes loss to another PO, I'm flamed and called a horrible rper.

Msn is another, violent place for OOC flaming as well. When a PO gets jealous of another, or the PO says something to another one I've saw the RP towards me decline and certain things that were arranged before the incident ig get revoked. OOC should not influence the char at all, and unfortunately it seems to.

This is a open cry to the community to stop making this game such a hostile place and play the game. There is no need for flaming and I'd actually prefer if the Off Topic forum section was deleted.

Can't we just get a long?

Thank you,
PO Julius Rothman
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Azuros
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Post by Azuros »

Actually, I agree with PO Julius. Flaming between players does nothing beneficial to the game at all. Perhaps a few more moderators and stricter rules would help stop this.
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AlexRose
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Re: The community as a whole

Post by AlexRose »

Julius wrote:Msn is another, violent place for OOC flaming as well. When a PO gets jealous of another, or the PO says something to another one I've saw the RP towards me decline and certain things that were arranged before the incident ig get revoked. OOC should not influence the char at all, and unfortunately it seems to.
I can see this is aimed at me through misinterpretation of events (For those who aren't up to date: Blaming me getting fed up of Julius's constant nagging me about doing stuff for the knighthood on [very randomly] "jealousy of Julius being with Starling ig".)

Regardless, people read too deeply into things when their "flawless" things have flaws found in them and switch blame elsewhere. And nah, I don't really appreciate you making accusations at me and then swearing at me, insulting my social life and going in a general stress at me, but then again I know some people in this community takes things too seriously and actually get pissed off rl by things over forums/ig/msn, which is kinda funny to me. You should watch people go mad sometimes, it's hilarious.

But anyway, yeah.. there's no need for this thread. Counter this if you disagree.

And now I'm off to bed. Night.
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Julius
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Post by Julius »

way to cause flame in a thread about no more flame, Alex.
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Re: The community as a whole

Post by Pellandria »

Julius wrote:
- Being killed.
This is exactly the main reason for much Ooc and ig hate, because people who tend to train their skill often, simply abuse the tachnical fact and kill people randomly, it was ages ago that I saw an good rp fight ig, if people would play a fair square fight and accept an actually loose, instead of using unfair methods to boost their own ego.
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Julius
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Post by Julius »

I used to love RP fights with Cromwell and Gazull. They both offered you a chance to win and get your items back. After all, this is a rp game, the PGers never seem to be the ones to agree to rp fights. So.. maybe I should add the act of powergaming as one of the causes of OOC flaming?
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Post by Llama »

Actually I think that if I'm angry at a person, and I flame him on the boards, and the mods delete it for X times, I'm going to be pretty ****ed off at the person AND the mods, and its not likely that I'm going to be nice IG.

I think what we need is the community to realise that deep down we're all on the same side and we all want to have fun, and shutting angry people up never helped that.

Also I've seen less flaming lately to be honest.

Oh and you've forgotten "Discuss."

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Post by Tinya »

One player gets an idea, discusses it on msn with another, before you know it, someone is flamed. This is a game with chars unlike the player, yet people flame the player. If something in game cannot be changed/fixed by calling a GM, there are two options: 1. try to change the game rules with suggestions and requests. 2. learn to deal with it and go on.

Also, you might want to think about this for those that flame. If someone is really RPing their char the way they should, with the background they have, these flaming sessions/blaming the player, will have NO effect on the actions of the char ig, but will only cause hurt feelings to the player.
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Post by abcfantasy »

Julius wrote:Gazull
Gazkull* :P :D
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Konrad Knox
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Post by Konrad Knox »

Julius, dude, you're like the number one flamer. Were before and still are. Always arguments with Dantagon or Fooser that I don't even care to read anymore.

As far as being the only one doing anything interesting at the moment, not true. And man, you start the MSN crap first.
You first play Julius acting like a jerk to my character IC, then come to me OOC and say "dude, nothing personal, it's just how i play julius, anyway, wanna join Kallahorn?"

How do you hope me to join your guild? Just because you properly Rp your jerk character concept? Not happening. You create the IC consequences yourself, and you have to harvest them. You've been begging me to join your order for 4 full weeks strictly OOC.

So cut it out, nobody is prejudiced against you, you just tire people with your whining. And you shouldn't be complaining about powergaming as you are one yourself. You wouldn't give Konrad a duel because "your skill gain cap ran out".

People dont like your order not because they dont like you. They dont like it because your agenda is insane. Instead of politics and commerce you prefer to quickly gather strong powergamers and try to intimidate people into obedience, and when people tell you "No", you start this nonsense OOC.

Quit it.
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Post by Gro'bul »

I mean, just look at this thread? The irony is so overwhelming one cannot help to think its pit for an egomaniacal feeding frenzy of regularly occurring proportions. Why are these people not banned? :?
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Julius
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Post by Julius »

Konrad Knox wrote:Julius, dude, you're like the number one flamer. Were before and still are. Always arguments with Dantagon or Fooser that I don't even care to read anymore.
Sure. I stated that. Do I start them thogh?
As far as being the only one doing anything interesting at the moment, not true. And man, you start the MSN crap first.
You first play Julius acting like a jerk to my character IC, then come to me OOC and say "dude, nothing personal, it's just how i play julius, anyway, wanna join Kallahorn?"
This thread is actually not having anything to do with me. I always ask the PO before I ask ig. I've never accepted a member without consulting ig.
How do you hope me to join your guild? Just because you properly Rp your jerk character concept? Not happening. You create the IC consequences yourself, and you have to harvest them. You've been begging me to join your order for 4 full weeks strictly OOC.
Kallahorn has been around since last Friday, man. I asked ig a few times if Konrad would join the old Order. Sure.
So cut it out, nobody is prejudiced against you, you just tire people with your whining. And you shouldn't be complaining about powergaming as you are one yourself. You wouldn't give Konrad a duel because "your skill gain cap ran out".
Cut it out? I was told to make this post by Patric (POSamatha). The majority of the post has nothing at all to do with me. I added me in there to show my prespective. I also rped the incident. You've never rped a injury after being clouded.
People dont like your order not because they dont like you. They dont like it because your agenda is insane. Instead of politics and commerce you prefer to quickly gather strong powergamers and try to intimidate people into obedience, and when people tell you "No", you start this nonsense OOC.
Are you an idiot? Can you actually read? I won't even explain that, just reread my first post.

Now. A few of you have decided to turn this thread into a wild fire, having more flame then comments on how to reshape the community. Be an idiot, flame me, do whatever you want. This is my last reply or post in here.
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Kamilar
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Post by Kamilar »

So... this seems to have something to do with me, so I guess I'll add my two cents.

One of the things that makes Illarion fun is the differences in the characters. Not all characters will get along and that's part of the fun. It stops being fun when POs forget that the character is a fictional creation of the player behind the screen.

It was pointed out to me today that my character is a narcissistic pain in the ass. It was pointed out in a way that fully stated I was not aware of that fact. Here's the thing... I play her. I know what she's like. She's not me.

If a player or character doesn't like mine, that's perfectly fine. RP it and move on. Sending some supposedly superior sounding in game quote to players in MSN when the RP doesn't go your way is not alright. That is done with no other purpose but to spoil the fun for others. Why do that? If you want to play a two-faced character, that's cool. I'm all for it. Just keep it in game.
My character hasn't like Starling for a long while now because she's a right pain in the arse, extremely annoying, acts slutty, ignores everyone etc. That quote was to show the real thoughts about Starling and display the opposite of jealousy and you seem to have picked it up completely the wrong way.
It all goes back to keeping it in game. If you can't say it ig, then keep it to yourself. Honestly. It's not fun. So now my character doesn't know, but I as the player know. How does that add to the roleplay? It only promotes more inappropriate OOC.

And I would keep it in PMs except for this:
Please don't bother replying because I'm all argued out and I can't be arsed so I just won't read.


So, yeah... I agree. There is something making the ig atmosphere unfun and it's not the game.
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Post by Lance Thunnigan »

I think I love you.
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Post by Fooser »

I see a bunch of bullshit posted at the start of this topic
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Post by Lance Thunnigan »

Fooser wrote:I see a bunch of bullshit posted at the start of this topic
\me cleans it all up.
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Post by Korm Kormsen »

There are several problems with the game of Illarion today that... causing ... to not even have the urge to play or rp anymore.
right, there are.
Senseless disputes in ooc, ooc flaming on the boards because of what someone is doing ig, and other things that lead to not only a negative environment for certain players but also a place that has been drained of all fun.
yes, that is a pity.
The problem of OOC flaming in this community has been going on since before I was here even. It's understandable because some players cannot accept loss.
i think, being not able to loose is not the only reason for these OOC discussions.
People seem to forget that the person behind the screen is not the character.
yes, that happens. there is a certain group of players, who don't give a ..... about the other players.
I've contributed to that percentage in the past, and it's something that I am not proud of. I almost puke when I see flaming no a days.
yes, you did.

did the following make you puke?
Are you an idiot? Can you actually read? I won't even explain that, just reread my first post.
who might have been so flaming, to write these lines?
How can we change this?
maybe, by playing less inadequate?
The only real outcome that I could see working would be for the community to actually grow up and act there age and stop crying over a game.
good idea!
let us take an example: PO Julius. you.
you took on a very reknown name when you made your char. fine. so you inherited some of the former Rothman's fame for your char.
but everytime, somebody lets you feel, that you inherited the bad reputation too, that goes with that name you are not contended.
you go OOC, you get help from a GM, you, as player try to get rid of ingame consequences of your choice of character.
your char with the ursupated name founds a "knighthood" ursurping a well known name.
well, that's your choice.
you include every criminal that lives on the island and show descontent, that other chars don't love your char for that.
you, as PO include in your "knighthood" the chars of every powergamer, who has a fighter.
you include chars, that have PKed and robbed every third newby, who entered the game.
you accuse other players of a lot of things on the forums and on MSN
and then you make a thread, telling everybody else, to stop flaming...
did you read the following?
...to actually grow up and act there age and stop crying over a game...

...my character (The only one doing anything really interesting ig at the moment,...
might it be, that being a little bit less egocentric could help you, to get along better with the rest of the comunity?
This is a open cry to the community to stop making this game such a hostile place and play the game. There is no need for flaming and I'd actually prefer if the Off Topic forum section was deleted.
honestly, taking in account everything you wrote in this thread, it seems more like a scarcely disguised flaming.

i think, you/your char should decide, what you want. be respected, or lead a bunch of criminals.
since many players still got enough ethics, to see differences between outlaws and knights, you can't have both.
not even with OOC-whining.

korm
.
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Post by wolfsword »

Fooser wrote:I see a bunch of bullshit posted at the start of this topic
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Post by Dantagon Marescot »

*Sits back and watches, all the time playing with a lighter.*

Flaming happens. Has since the begining of time. Someone says something someone doesn't like and people begin to attack that person vebally. This happens in real life and in our little game.

Go ahead, flame me all you want for telling the truth, but... people don't dislike you because of Julius. Hell, I dislike Dain, but I have nothing against his player. Why do people dislike you? Well, because you flame, you are egotistical, and your attitude OOC is hardly oppisite of Julius on MSN. I'll be honest, I have never met you in real life so I don't know how you act... but I have a pretty damn good idea.

Go ahead and flame me all you want for speaking the truth. I am not trying to start anything. My advice, read carefully, grow up, and don't reply back with a flame, I'm not willing to argue.
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Post by Cliu Beothach »

Oh Hey,

Just posting to make me feel better about myself while amazingly contradicting this view at the same time, but I'll never notice.

Yea, I'm that good!
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Re: The community as a whole

Post by Nitram »

Sure, OOC is a problem. But I can't see a real way to change it, if the players do not want to change. And I guess if you want to change something, its the best thing to do, to perform the first step on your own and do not wait for others to do this.
Persons flame you at MSN? I wonder why so many have problems with using the ignore function. If one wants to flame you, just ignore him. Take him of the ignore list a week later. If he flames again, repeat the same. It will serve its purpose.
About the forum, I guess its the best if you just stop posting any ooc at all, if you want to reduce the ooc influence. Maybe others join.
Julius wrote:How can we change this? Perhaps add a more active mod group so that players are not so hostile and if they are, there messages will be deleted. The only real outcome that I could see working would be for the community to actually grow up and act there age and stop crying over a game. It's caused me to not even want to log on anymore because IF my character (The only one doing anything really interesting ig at the moment, excluding the ones helping him) does something that causes loss to another PO, I'm flamed and called a horrible rper.
And this idea, is not pretty smart. You know we tried already to make the players know that they did something wrong and hoped they change. I help you remembering: Image

Our community consists at a small part of persons who just feel bad if they have nothing to moan and argue about. Thats just the way it goes and I don't see any way to change this persons, if they don't grow a little mature on their own.

Nitram
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Konrad Knox
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Post by Konrad Knox »

I see a solution ingame. Make the map bigger, create another island, with more land, and allow players easier access to building. This way you won't have a crapload of people fighting each other over a tiny piece of land in the middle of the only existing island, called Troll's Bane.

Let players build their own towns and give them more land with more monsters to function independantly, and you won't have as much war. Less war = less OOC flame.

All flamewars are pretty much caused by the fact that a lot of people want to be in control of the same thing.
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Post by Greisling »

Konrad, your approach seems good and reasonablein a way. :)
Though, it does not go to the core of the matter.

- The island already is bigh enough to allow several kingdoms.
- Actually, nobody really wants to rule Troll's Bane, but want either to get accesss to its taxes or ...
- ...people just want to change power structures by proving the power their character have.
- Players already can built their towns (Nordmark, Briar, Caelum) but they are not really accepted over a long period of time.
- Less war does not immediatly lead to less OOC-flaming, nor vice versa. This would only happen, if players are unable to play with each other instead of playing against each other.

This still is the most important issue. It is the attitude of the players.

So, in my opinion the only way to change the attitudes is to set up stricter rules of what is allowed/wanted and not allowed/not wanted IG as well as OOC. These rules have to be communicated. And striclty implemented!
Or you introduce sort of age-control or IQ-test when applying to join Illarion ;-)
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Konrad Knox
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Post by Konrad Knox »

In that case I have solution #2.
Ban MSN, exchanging MSNs, adding GMs to MSNs.
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Post by AlexRose »

As if. I regard Matt (seriously) as a really good friend. We talk about everything, not just ig stuff. Then you look at Tonino for instance, who moved in with illarionites, Damien who's made a relationship with Narmir. Banning msn would be stupid, and you'd never be able to do it anyway. People would just go ((what's your forum account?)) -> pm "What's your msn?" and it'd just make the process a bit harder.

And I don't think your idea would work.. simply because.

The reason people want TB is:
1. It's in the centre of the map.
2. It has all the facilities you'll ever need practically.
3. It's near to the graveyard and the well and the ruins.
4. It's massive.
5. It has a static transporter.
6. It's got animals for newbies and a good layout.
7. To get ANYWHERE you pass through Troll's Bane.
8. No other towns can compete with all this, especially the yard thing.
9. It's the starting point for newbies.
10. Everyone's already there so you feel if you move you'll move alone.

Solution:
1. There is no solution to this unfortunately, short of moving it.
2. Well.. this is other towns' responsibilities to get these stuff.
3. New dungeons with a variety of monsters near other towns, because people LIKE fighting and I know people who, when Caelum is built, will not spend that much time in it because it's so far away from the graveyard. This is something I can help with once my exams are over (month and a half maybe).
4. E-e-e-expaaa-aa-aand. That should've been in some cool techno voice.
5. When Caelum's built (which will be soon looking at progress) and since Nordmark's already built.. well actually, less Caelum because there's already one nearby, but anyway, how about giving Nordmark a static transporter? They've been established for quite a while now. They don't even have a portal book point near them, poor guys.
6. Again, this is for the towns to do themselves.
7. And again, no solution.
8. Just do what the other things said, especially the dungeon one, and hopefully people will immigrate.
9. When newbie island's implemented so players already learn what's what, how about doing the old: elves on vanima, halflings in greenbriar, dwarves in Silverbrand, orcs at the orc cave, lizards at the harbour. etc. etc. ? Just a thought.
10. Catch 22. Don't just move alone then. Ask your friends if they'll move with you and maybe more people will start moving.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned making a new island will just make the current towns even more deserted.
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Rhianna Morgan
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Post by Rhianna Morgan »

I think AlexRose is right, there is no use in creating a new island. There are too few chars on the old one sometimes already!!!

And as for a few conflicts on Gobaith, don't you think that it is only logical that there are always some "rebels" against the present system or minorities/majorities arguing? Every country in RL has these conflicts, and I really think some conflicts spice our rp up.
But still, the biggest problem is that some in our community tend to be bad loosers and because of that take every PO for his chars' actions although they are absolutely not the same. Hey, f.e. Rhianna hates Baldur and Alan likes him, but that does not depend on my own opinion but on the rp they have been through. Stop these fights in our community and stop talking rude about others. I like the idea of "evil" chars. The game would be worthless if everyone was "good", persons DO have good and bad sides as DO their POs, but we all have the same intention- creating a new world and having a lot of fun in it - and I think it is time to remember that.

PUH... I forgot I can talk that much... but sry, I looked through the forum and all these small fights - especially between Julius and Fooser, please don't take it personal - really went on my nerves. Stuff like that destroyes the atmosphere I liked about Illa when I started it, and destroying others fun is not what this game was made for. If your chars hate each other, take it to the RPG board or play it ig, but stop these senseless fights against POs you have never met in RL.

God, I am soooo bitchy... sorry folks but I really had to say it.
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Post by Aegohl »

It's one of the ironies of Illarion that I've pointed out before that the community used to be a lot more friendly and have a lot less yuck yucks* when the board was left mostly unmoderated.

Surprise! Can't blame the staff for this one, gentlemen. You're just going to have to act like adults and start treating each other better.


*yuck yucks are posters who believe they're incredibly funny and degrade the quality of every thread to the level of their humor regardless of content. It might be argued that for every flamer there is ten yuck yucks at Illarion. It could also be argued that yuck yucks set threads up to become flame wars and leave quietly when authorities arrive, thereby getting away with thread murder without actually getting blamed for it.
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Post by Cliu Beothach »

Surprise! Can't blame the staff for this one, gentlemen. You're just going to have to act like adults and start treating each other better.
But this is the opposite of WHY people play illarion!
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Post by Arien Edhel »

Please don't force me to close this thread.
Discuss but don't flame or attack PO's.
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Cliu Beothach
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Post by Cliu Beothach »

Whose flamin'?
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