The Prejudices of Illarion: Proper Villainy

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Ambrosine
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The Prejudices of Illarion: Proper Villainy

Post by Ambrosine »

I would like to say that Illarion is completely unfair to those of us who wish to play proper villians.

There is neither a thievery (which makes theft/robbery impossible), nor a lockpicking skill (which makes burglary and trespassing impossible), in game arson is banned by out of game rules, murder is tracked (and widespread homicide is sometimes punished) out of game, and Illarion hasn’t seen an inquisition. Even plain old vandalism is impossible without roleplay.

I do understand that Illarion is all about roleplaying, I like that. What I don’t like is that Illarion is kept safe through a series of code restrictions and out of game rules, not as a reflection of the actual morality of the community.

A proper villain should be able to do whatever they wish and only worry about whether or not they have the wit, agility, and forethought to prevent being caught.

In short; you shouldn’t have to see a house, track down the character to whom that house belongs, track down who has that character is on the forums, then PM someone to politely ask them to leave their door unlocked between 2200 and 2205 because you plan on robbing their character tonight.
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Tanistian_Kanea
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Post by Tanistian_Kanea »

you shouldn't, but you do. the lockpicking and thievery are ideas being considered. the devs are only capable of doing so many things at once.
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Post by Ambrosine »

I know they're being considered. I just thought I'd put my own two cents in and ask everyone else for theirs.
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Nitram
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Re: The Prejudices of Illarion: Proper Villainy

Post by Nitram »

Ooookay.
Ambrosine wrote:I would like to say that Illarion is completely unfair to those of us who wish to play proper villians.
What is a proper villian? A huge guy who runs around with a huger hammer hitting some other persons into the ground to get their things? A thieve who robs every characters on sight? Someone who tries to get in a powerful legal position and tries to manipulate the things from that position to get a personal advantage?

I fear you see the word "villain" to limited to robbing, stealing and beating.

Ambrosine wrote:There is neither a thievery (which makes theft/robbery impossible),
the thing you wrote in the brackets is wrong. Only because its impossible to steal without roleplay it does not mean that its impossible to steal in general. Any good roleplay will play along with you if you try to rob some coins from his character.
Ambrosine wrote:nor a lockpicking skill (which makes burglary and trespassing impossible),
What door do you want to open? Private houses? You can't get anything from that houses. Do not forget that its absolutly impossible ( from the technical point of view ) to access the depot of someone else. So what do you want in the house of someone else? The inventory? I fear that kidda unmovable too. Lockpicking is currently kind of useless because you can't get anything behind that doors.
Ambrosine wrote:in game arson is banned by out of game rules,
the reason for this is that you could destroy a whole town, while noone is ingame. Thats would be crap and the banning of arson won't be lifted anytime. If you really want to put a building on fire on purpose you have to contact a gm who make a quest out of this.
Ambrosine wrote:murder is tracked
Is it in reallife something else? Isn't every muderer tracked and punished too? Do never exspect something else in the game too. You are allowed to murder a character, in case the player of the other character allows this ( i speak of RP dead. So really dead. you can kill a character by the engine without asking the player before ;) ). The reason why you have to ask the player is that you make it impossible for the player to play on his character. He would loose the character without any chance to get it back ( :roll: ). You can ask yourself if you would be happy if someone kills your character and you can't play it anymore because its... dead.
Ambrosine wrote:(and widespread homicide is sometimes punished) out of game,
because widespread killing without any reason is crap and nothing but playerkilling. The game shall be fun to all players and not only to one. Something like this is only fun for one player.
Ambrosine wrote:and Illarion hasn’t seen an inquisition.
because noone played it.
Ambrosine wrote:Even plain old vandalism is impossible without roleplay.
do you want to run around destroying tables and chairs or what? Best when noone else is online and can't do anything against? Sorry. But thats getting to far. I can't see any use or advantage for the game if we allow character to run around destroying everything on the map.
Ambrosine wrote:I do understand that Illarion is all about roleplaying, I like that.
Thats a pretty good start.
Ambrosine wrote:What I don’t like is that Illarion is kept safe through a series of code restrictions and out of game rules, not as a reflection of the actual morality of the community.
The game rules reflect what goes to far. Running around and killing everyone has no use, is no fun to the other players and is no advantage for the game in any way.
Code restrictions are there for 3 reasons.
1. Its not possible.
2. Noone wrote it, since we can't write everything at the same time
3. It has no use and is no advatage for the game
Ambrosine wrote:A proper villain should be able to do whatever they wish and only worry about whether or not they have the wit, agility, and forethought to prevent being caught.
Your character is able to do everything what he whishes ( beside of the things that are really impossible, like flying for a human ). But that things are only possible in case you are ( as player ) able to put that things into roleplay.
Ambrosine wrote:In short; you shouldn’t have to see a house, track down the character to whom that house belongs, track down who has that character is on the forums, then PM someone to politely ask them to leave their door unlocked between 2200 and 2205 because you plan on robbing their character tonight.
Again the question what you want to rob in that house even if you are able to unlock the door by yourself. The character who is sleeping in there is not logged in and his things are in the depot. And you can't access the depot since thats not possible from the technical point of view.


All in all i see that is it hard to villain, no villain is a bad word for that what you want to play, better call it racketeer. Its currently hard to play a racketeer without roleplay. But you should learn to get along with that since that won't change.

Just to make one point clear. A villain is in my eyes someone who causes more trouble then robbing 2 persons. A villain should be one who is able to lead the small racketeers. Someone who would be even able to cause a war on the island. Thats a villain.

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Ow.

Post by Ambrosine »

Thank you for thoroughly chewing before removing my head from my body.

The list was of current technical impossibilities; I know full well that they can be roleplayed.

And I wasn’t saying that those were all things I would want a character of mine to be doing. Some crimes require a tad of forethought, while others are things teenagers do to piss off the neighbors, I was just listing crimes. I wasn’t listing things I would do if I created an evil character. An evil character of mine would probably go for things like counterfeiting gold and selling addictive herbs (which, again, are technical impossibilities in Illarion).

About the robbing scenario: I know depots are inaccessible. But, in general, when people have houses, they put things in them, as in storing supplies in closets, stuffing things into dressers, the like. You could arrange with the person who’s character you wanted to rob to have a few things dropped in chests around the house and have their character asleep in the house. Yes, it would take a bit planning, but it seems like it could be arranged.

(And as a side note on murder: I know it’s tracked in real life. It just seems that the people of Illarion are a bit too well informed for a world where doves are the only form of long distance communication. And that irks me. >_<)
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Korm Kormsen
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Post by Korm Kormsen »

talking about, what irks whom...

Ambrosine,

am i right, to suppose, that you are relatively new to our world?

if i'm right, i would suggest, that you first try to play the game, and wait a little, before you try to change the game.

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Post by Ambrosine »

I’m not trying to change the game. I know the difference between “General” and “Proposals”. I just thought I’d point out that Illarion is a little biased toward good and get a few peoples’ ideas about criminals in Illarion.


I've only been playing a month, so I'm sorry if I was rash in posting this topic.

But instead of patronizing me for my lack of experience, explain to me why adding skills specific to evil characters would degrade Illarion's quality as a game.

Or just come out and tell me that because of my lack of experience I don't have the right to develop and voice an opinion.
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Post by Tinuva Geogroda »

Ambrosine wrote:I’m not trying to change the game. I know the difference between “General” and “Proposals”. I just thought I’d point out that Illarion is a little biased toward good and get a few peoples’ ideas about criminals in Illarion.


I've only been playing a month, so I'm sorry if I was rash in posting this topic.

But instead of patronizing me for my lack of experience, explain to me why adding skills specific to evil characters would degrade Illarion's quality as a game.

Or just come out and tell me that because of my lack of experience I don't have the right to develop and voice an opinion.
I'd say: Make a criminal character XD it's fun to play thief even though it's just rp based <.<
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Post by AlexRose »

Actually, I wouldn't mind Sibanac being banned. There could come some good rp with that. Maybe I should make a character who suffers from big affects due to sibanac, possibly making town guards reconsider the allowance of sibanac to be smoked. :P

And I think that'd be pretty cool if you could make counterfeit coins with the gold smithing kit etc, and the chance of you seeing it as a "Fake Gold coin" depends on your perception, so some people will accept them and then find that others will refuse them ;)

I also think that you should be able to "use" yellow potions with alcohol to poison them, also with Perception used to find this.

In fact, trap detecting, poison detection, counterfeit detection etc. could turn Perception into a really useful skill.
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Post by falco1029 »

Thievery shouldn't be hardcoded, period. I'd rather deal with 1 or 23 people who wont roleplay being stolen from than deal with needing to powergame a thieving skill because my thief is supposedly masterful at it, or having to deal with other people trying to powergame theirs on myself or others.

As for houses, roleplay that on the forum after pm-ing them, roleplay getting their stuff if you can, and then have them actually give it to you ingame.

Arson and destroying stuff is best done with Gm help, so they can judge if there's a good reason, and you don't have everybody trying to do it.

That's my 2 cents
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Post by Garen »

Alex Wrote:
Actually, I wouldn't mind Sibanac being banned. There could come some good rp with that. Maybe I should make a character who suffers from big affects due to sibanac, possibly making town guards reconsider the allowance of sibanac to be smoked.

And I think that'd be pretty cool if you could make counterfeit coins with the gold smithing kit etc, and the chance of you seeing it as a "Fake Gold coin" depends on your perception, so some people will accept them and then find that others will refuse them

I also think that you should be able to "use" yellow potions with alcohol to poison them, also with Perception used to find this.

In fact, trap detecting, poison detection, counterfeit detection etc. could turn Perception into a really useful skill.
heh, dude, i think this sounds pretty cool, makeing at least a few skills for "bad stuff", it oculd make some things intresting. and for trap detecting, you would (of course) need trape making, i sy you be able to poison foodstuffs also.
just bad guys skills, and as for the ppl powergaming them, why care, they do it for the other skills, so, why worrie about them doing it to new skills also. and as for your char. being "good" at these things already, ask a gm to help you out a bit, if youve been roleplaying well, they might. you never know..
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Post by falco1029 »

I doubt they would. I dont think I've done any rp with a GM thus far, so how could they know I'm good? :P

Anyway, I'd still just prefer it not be done.
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Lrmy
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Post by Lrmy »

Mainly @ Ambrosine -

You said..
The list was of current technical impossibilities; I know full well that they can be roleplayed.
Nitram can't read minds (yet). Don't take his words to seriously. He is constantly frustrated with people making suggestions that won't help anything more than what he is already working on. I'm shore if he had the time to do more things he might consider them more, but the fact is, he doesn't. Some special things were given to "villains" in Illarion before to help with player-run quests. The community has always bitch/complained (sometimes valid bitching and complaining :P ) about any GM help for a specific sect of roleplay. Since this happened GMs won't be doing things often in the future for non-gm characters or non-official quests. You CAN roleplay a thief just as easy a knight, as with a paladin or a mass murderer. Hell, you can roll them all into one if you do it the right way. Just play the game a bit longer like Korm said and look into all you can do.
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Post by Damien »

Actually, about every player plays a villain character or two.
We have far too many bandits ingame, compared to "normal" people, and we have a lot of wanna-be-dark-heroes.
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Post by Lrmy »

Damien wrote:Actually, about every player plays a villain character or two.
We have far too many bandits ingame, compared to "normal" people, and we have a lot of wanna-be-dark-heroes.
You know very well that some one can play whatever kind of character they want. Now, the success of that will be determined by the PO's Rp for the most part. Like you said...Wanna-be not Be ;) .

Also, speaking of normal in a fantasy land....never mind....

I disagree with you about to many bandits. I rarely see bandits in game. Perhaps I am around in the wrong times.

Can't help but wonder...what is your point about so many bandits? Do you not like that?
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Post by Tinuva Geogroda »

Damien wrote:Actually, about every player plays a villain character or two.
We have far too many bandits ingame, compared to "normal" people, and we have a lot of wanna-be-dark-heroes.
Do little kids that steal 1 time some copper pieces count by that too? <.<
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Post by Ambrosine »

Just as a thought: Wouldn't it be a little more difficult to powergame thieving than other skills?

I mean, when you powergame other skills people get mad at you for taking resources they meant to take (carpenters fighting over trees [which was funny to watch :D ], people overkilling pigs...) or not rping when they pass by and want to chat...

But with thieving, aren't people even more likely to kick your ass if they catch you doing it? Besides, you wouldn't have to stop RPing would you? Druids RP all the time... (admittedly that's because they lost their skill, but hey. *shrugs*)
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Post by falco1029 »

Damien, remember, it's very rare you see thieves like myself

However, bandits that just say give me your money or die are plentiful. Though a few of them rp it very very well (richard, for instance).
Karl

Post by Karl »

Just would like to tell you that I've thought of making one of my chars forge a Heretic alliance, but after many thoughts and reflections, it wouldn't work on Illarion.
You need a roleplaying game for that.
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Post by Beldir »

I think Illarion has enougth skills, to powergame yet. And if you had a skill like vandalism.. I don't want to think about how Troll's Bane looks after 3 days. And powergaming thieving would be a bit annoying.. someone walks to your character(without saing or RPing anything), he tries to steal something, then you get a message like: "Someone****** trrys to steal your money!", you say something and the other char walks off.
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Post by Llama »

Couldn't agree more...

Another game I played used to have a 'perk' ability. Once you levelled up (yeah it had levels AND skill) you got perk points to add to skills, so skills like lockpicking and stealing could be increased without the need of stupid powergaming.

Skills for this WONT work with illarion.
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Post by Gwendolyne Rothaide »

I think that for most PO's there is no problem RPing thievery from the "victim's" standpoint. But to force this on someone with a system for it can lead to hurt feelings and anger. As it stands now, even those that RP it, can choose what they wish to admit to the thief as having. With good RP it can be a good experience for both. With a system, this could all change.
Karl

Post by Karl »

Gwendolyne Rothaide wrote:As it stands now, even those that RP it, can choose what they wish to admit to the thief as having.
Which is a good thing?
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Post by Aegohl »

You know what tends to bother me? When people shoot down a proposal with the only basis that they think it will encourage "bad rp."

First of all, there's rp and no rp. If someone is rping, it's good.

Second of all, not rping is against the rules. People who don't rp get banned at Illarion, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I'm not saying that any of the above proposals are genius and they should be implemented right away; what I am saying is that they should be judged on their merits or lack thereof and not "bad rp" talk.
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Post by falco1029 »

Alright, it's a bad proposal.

Why? I doubt it'l llet us look through bags and take what we want, it'd be a random item. RPing is so much better.

And if it DID let us look through bags, it'd be too powerful, and everyone would say thieves arent balances cus they can take whatever they want once they have good skill.

So yeah, I win :D
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Post by Fooser »

Why don't we all just PK the villains?
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Post by Korm Kormsen »

Fooser,

where is the rally point?
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Post by Lrmy »

Fooser wrote:Why don't we all just PK the villains?
Don't we already?
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Post by Fooser »

I'm talking full 100% devotion, no-RP, no #me, relentless PKing of villains.
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Post by Ambrosine »

I don't think a thieving skill would be something that would let us look through *all* the other person's things.

It could be something like... the better your thief skill is, the higher level items you'd be able to steal. Such as, it would be more difficult to steal things off of a person's belt than out of a bag, and smaller items would be easier to snatch than bigger ones.

Aka, newb thief tries to steal someone's things, sucks, gets caught and beaten a couple of times, then comes across a poor little peasant with no perception and viola! The newblet's first haul is five coppers and a needle... gee what a way to start a career...
Later in life... masterthief comes along, chats up a few guards at the bar, buys them a few beers, frisks them blind, tucks all but the armour from their backs into her sack and toasts them heartily before buying another round (on them ^_^) and slipping out into the night...
....
Alright, so my imagination's a little skewed...

But isn't that the general idea of skill progression?
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