Reviving the dead horse: How can we fix the tragic-system?

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Mr. Cromwell
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Reviving the dead horse: How can we fix the tragic-system?

Post by Mr. Cromwell »

Okay, so..

I think that by now even the staunchest of the tragic-system fanboys have to admit that generally speaking, what we have right now in the tragic-section is not working for the most part. Despite the reassuring words of Damien and others, I constantly come under the impression that the pool of teachers we have is diminishing and becoming more inactive rather than the opposite. Those who are/have been students at some point seem unhappy. The system is slow, inefficient and insecure for the students. Even part of the staff seems to share the view.

Here's my beef with the project in general:

I won't go as far as to say that the implementation and planning of the current system was incompetent, but it sure as hell was stupid and negligent. Oh, let's take opinions just from within the establishment. Hey - let's just allow those players who have a character who has been around for x time, has x skills and "suitable personality" to voice their opinion.. as if that was going to have any effect on whether or not the player involved had any meaningful to contribute or not. There was at no point a freaking way, that those combined factors would ensure a system that is good for those to whom the system is actually meant for: The potential and would-be students.
Genius. Inbreeding really is the way to go.

As everyone with their marbles intact predicted, such narrowminded approach where the designing side completely ignores all dissenting voices AND seeks to exclude the vast majority from giving out their opinions and ideas to begin will result with something that is plagued with lack of balance and problems. For me, there is no surprise that we ended up with the current trainwreck of a system we have. The system has been working poorly at best, and at the moment there is no remedy in sight. So, more openness into the development next time please. It's not like these were some state secrets. Maybe we'll get it right with the first time.

Problems we are experiencing currently:
1. Lack of teachers
2. Long waiting times
3. Teacher inactivity and dependency on them
4. Slow progress

Possible solutions:
I am not completely against the system, and as some of you might have noticed I do support the possibility acquiring of benefits via roleplaying. However, to make this completely dependant on a small number of players and the interaction between the student and the teacher is bad thing. Nice idea, but a bad thing in practice.

1. Make Mage-class something that has to be applied for.
2. NPC-teacher will give you runes at a fixed, time related rate. (Meaning that you can learn the basic runes in X-days, The more special ones can only acquired through point nr. 3, dungeons, quests and the like)
3. Voluntary teaching (Some runes, possibly the more advanced/special ones can be gained this way) As well as the runes, teaching now gives a modest increase of skill for the student (This in order to reward those who want to rp).

The main idea is that with this system ANY player who is not a complete twat can become a mage without such insane waiting times and problems, but it would still take some effort to get the most powerful/special spells and become a powerful mage. Thus we will have no thirty-day wonders as archmages, but people can actually play mages this year, should they want to.

I like my idea.
Karl

Post by Karl »

You see, magic in Illarion is the 'special' thing. Without magic in Illarion, the game wouldn't be fantastic.. But not everyone should be allowed to spread that fantasy.. I still think that only precise, targeted, and even perhaps staff-chosen players should be allowed to be mages.. The current system somehow helps that. I have to admit, there are some choices of students I totally disagree on them having mage chars, but currently, there's nothing I can, or want to do about it.

1- I wouldn't call it a lack of teacher.. As I said, there shouldn't be too many mages.. Or else they won't be special anymore.. It won't be 'fun' and 'exciting' to be able to play a mage char anymore.. So yeah..
2- Long waiting times = good. Because that means some mages will have gone to inactivity, and some new ones can take place.
3- Hey, teachers have a life too. I agree about the dependency thing though.. Perhaps there should be some kind of way to get your runes from an NPC.
4- Not true.

Anyways, I haven't really dug into the magic system that much, and my mage char has only been my main one since a short while, but I can say that I don't mind the system as it is at all. It wasn't hard for my char finding a teacher at all, actually. You just need patience. If you don't have that, then you shouldn't play a mage char.
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Tanistian_Kanea
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Post by Tanistian_Kanea »

not this "special thing" crap again. honestly people find a new arguement. even for a "special thing" the teaching is slow and inefficient. You also get some characters that should never have become mages in a million years. srry alex but your are PRIME example.
William Elderberry was a COMPLETE moronic fool. capable of doing nothing but pissing people off. But he wasn't going to be a mage that way so "miraculously" William Elderberry changed to the "star student" and everyone in the mage academy proved to the world the have less brain then a pile of twigs by accepting him. Silas Farron, one of the current mage teachers was evil and was i believe working for negros when he was around, but definately evil. So if this is such a "special thing" why do we have such horrid characters with it? ((horrid as in bad ig, good rp though)).
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Mr. Cromwell
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Post by Mr. Cromwell »

Karl wrote:You see, magic in Illarion is the 'special' thing. Without magic in Illarion, the game wouldn't be fantastic.. But not everyone should be allowed to spread that fantasy.. I still think that only precise, targeted, and even perhaps staff-chosen players should be allowed to be mages.. The current system somehow helps that. I have to admit, there are some choices of students I totally disagree on them having mage chars, but currently, there's nothing I can, or want to do about it.
I assume that this is just your personal opinion, just like the arrogant elves thing. Nowhere did damien say that the number of mages should be limited in this way. In fact, he promised that there would be more teachers and people would be able to become mages faster. The current situation is the bastard child of a bastard child, a bad (subjective) unintentional side-effect of a fundamentally dysfunctional system. The whole point has been to make more mages.
1- I wouldn't call it a lack of teacher.. As I said, there shouldn't be too many mages.. Or else they won't be special anymore.. It won't be 'fun' and 'exciting' to be able to play a mage char anymore.. So yeah..
If you think that it's no longer fun or exciting to play a mage when more people are able to, maybe it's you who shouldn't play a mage char? Just a thought. I don't think this current mess is anything you are intended to get used of. :wink:
2- Long waiting times = good. Because that means some mages will have gone to inactivity, and some new ones can take place.
You speak like the amount of mages in illarion should somehow remain constant through all eternity? Regardless of the amount of good roleplayers and just a general increase of population in illarion?
You just need patience. If you don't have that, then you shouldn't play a mage char.
Sorry, but that's just nonsense. My patience as a player should be irrelevant. Everyone who has the roleplaying-ability deserves a chance to play a mage should he wants one, and this shouldn't be determined by who-knows-who or any other such system. If I someone thinks he's up for playing a mage, who are you to tell him to wait for six months or get someone on your msn?
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Post by Theon »

I've seen trages that can't roleplay. It made me vomit.
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Post by Llama »

Cawdor wrote:I've seen trages that can't roleplay. It made me vomit.
I think that mages should require an application (similar to the special races) and they get some runes. Mage teachers should continue, and people who HAVE them should be faster then those who don't.
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Post by Taeryon Silverlight »

The current system is very fine. Please note, that it's in it's beginning stadium. That means, there will be much more teachers then needed in about 3 - 5 months. Then all the problems you mantioned are gone.

Please Staff, pls. pls. pls. keep the current system. It's very good!
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Post by Nitram »

The current system is in the "beginning stadium" since more then 1 year now, Taeryon.

The learning system as well as the rest of the magic system is crap.

But since all developers are busy currently that will not change that soon.

Nitram
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Kaila Galathil Travinus
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Re: Reviving the dead horse: How can we fix the tragic-syste

Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus »

Mr. Cromwell wrote: ...............................
Problems we are experiencing currently:
1. Lack of teachers
2. Long waiting times
3. Teacher inactivity and dependency on them
4. Slow progress

............................
1. Make Mage-class something that has to be applied for.

I agree, but also think a certain amount of time (hours) ig should be added. In other words just because a new PO would be good with the application process, may not mean they can RP well.

2. NPC-teacher will give you runes at a fixed, time related rate. (Meaning that you can learn the basic runes in X-days, The more special ones can only acquired through point nr. 3, dungeons, quests and the like)

As one who is usually not fond of skilling to be able to do dungeons and quests, I guess it depends on the quest. But another possibility for the more special runes, is to allow the system as it is now. The mage teachers decide depending on RP ability. Right now, and correct me if I am wrong, but the mage teachers decide who they want to teach, and then that char becomes their student. If this process is separated, that is, if they see a mage char with good RP, the char's name can be put on a list of students, if more then one teacher puts that char on the list, a final list can be made. This won't necessarily mean that that teacher would have that particular char. As time permits, the char would move up the list knowing that the next opening would be theirs. Some adjustment can also be done by the teachers realizing that due to language problems, time ig etc. may conflict with teacher or student. On a personal note I feel very lucky that I have had more then one teacher, the styles being completely different as far as teaching, and language permitting, it would be nice if all could for at least one class, see other mage teachers. I also think that, time permitting, it would be nice to have mage students take a warlock class and vica versa because a lot can be learned. This is all from a student/apprentice perspective however.

The biggest problem right now appears to be that the teachers are limited in number....however this should hopefully change once the current mage students "graduate" to be able to teach if approved and they desire to.

If I was a mage and elected to teach, I would not want to spend my entire time ig teaching. I would like other RP also, otherwise why be a mage/warlock char? :D What do the mage/warlock chars get from their efforts to teach? Is there an advantage for them to spend their ig time doing this? Most use their own copper and arrange their times around the students. Possibly some type of reward for their efforts could be set up.




3. Voluntary teaching (Some runes, possibly the more advanced/special ones can be gained this way) As well as the runes, teaching now gives a modest increase of skill for the student (This in order to reward those who want to rp).

Possibly the more advanced students that show an interest in teaching can teach the beginning classes. They could be rewarded in this way and if the teaching is effective can eventually become a mage teacher if approved, acquiring the more advanced runes.

The main idea is that with this system ANY player who is not a complete twat can become a mage without such insane waiting times and problems, but it would still take some effort to get the most powerful/special spells and become a powerful mage. Thus we will have no thirty-day wonders as archmages, but people can actually play mages this year, should they want to.


Unlike some, I do think the mage class as a whole should be somewhat limited. With the coming of Druid magic and Bard magic, I can see that a typical craftsman, or warrior could become obsolete if some limits aren't set. However, the frustration lies in the wait. the wait for class, the wait for acceptance. If an application process is begun after a couple of months ig for the char...either a yes or a no would leave the char the option of trying to change the skills to another profession, or the PO to just delete the char. This would cut one such frustration for PO's and possibly for teachers also. I think the classes could also be shortened by the application process.........those with good RP skills only will be in the class..
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

I just investigated the last login times of the magic teachers, known to me:

07-04-04 11:23:44
07-05-16 02:01:01
07-06-05 11:13:40
07-06-06 11:19:11
07-06-12 05:43:34
07-06-13 08:26:03
07-06-14 03:02:52
07-06-21 01:09:35

One trullala for the magic teacher who was online this week.
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Post by AlexRose »

Nitram wrote:The current system is in the "beginning stadium" since more then 1 year now, Taeryon.
That is so untrue it's funny.

30 Tue Jan, 2007 was the reform of the academy.
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Post by NirAntae »

Trullala? lol
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Nitram
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Post by Nitram »

AlexRose wrote:
Nitram wrote:The current system is in the "beginning stadium" since more then 1 year now, Taeryon.
That is so untrue it's funny.

30 Tue Jan, 2007 was the reform of the academy.
As usual i'm refering to the introducing of the magic system. And thats more then one year ago.
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Post by Skaalib Drurr »

Then again, this whole topic is refferring to the teaching system, so perhaps your posts are a tad off-topic Nitram ;) .

And with regards to the teaching system; im not a great fan of it, largely because you must buddy up with a teacher, which is not always suitable for all roles, or for those who don't have time to play a large amount, or for those in obscure time-zones.
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Post by Athian »

Not completely true. Though i'm not exactly sure how much hot water i'll get into for blathering on about it.

As to What Nitram is saying. Yes the magic system sucks, it has many minor bugs and flaws that will need working on in the future.

Yes the teaching system could be alot better. Those of us teaching are doing there best to work with what we're currently allowed to do. Keep in mind that even under this current magic teaching system that there are rules ig and occ that we are chastized for breaking.

The current system can work if we had maybe a half dozen extra teachers. Honestly i'm swamped completely swamped, with beyond full rosters, secondaries waiting and more waiting after that. I believe i currently host more students then any other teacher (because likely i'm far more active).

So while the magic system is still months from any actual fixing. the teaching system should have something IF anything to ease up on the strain it puts on the select few player characters whom can teach. Either more teachers or a way for Just basic level one runes to be learned without major fuss.

(Though all you mage happy lot should remember once you get your first rune your stuck in a magic system thats awhiles away from fixing)

Only warning I'd give is that people should be careful what they do with an open magic system. As i'm sure the GM's will quickly stop helping the whining crowd that picked the magic system and didn't like it, and so want to go back to normal. And i expect a flood of those kind of people the moment any part of it becomes freely accesible
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

From what I recall, the initial concept for the magic academy was that there are rather public lessons about magic n' stuff and who listens carefully and passes an examen, gets the rune of the day. At least this was what I was told back then. Such a system would work if enough teachers are available, but as it seems, this was abandoned.

Anyway, this discussion contains a vital aspect: How many chars should be mages? First off, I think Illarion is a magic world, with faeries, elves and demons n' stuff. Thus, magic shouldn't be something rare and in addition, many players want to play a mage and shouldn't be hampered in this. On the other hand, being a mage shouldn't be (much) more attractive than being a ranger, a tailor, a knight or a bum.

So, I'd say a fraction of around 1/3 should be mages, including bards, druids and priests. If one assumes that there are 4 magic schools and not every mage will become a good one, I guess it is a fair number. Feel free to calculate how many players we need to have one Zhambra priest online in average (132).

But as Nitram stated, no fix will come anytime soon but it is consensus that the current system does not work. From what I know and from what I am basing the bard system on, a threefold system to get runes will come (Basic runes: Startup / NPC, advanced runes: static quests, über runes: PC-teachers).
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Post by Damien »

One main problem is that the most magic teachers cannot cast teleport spells yet(not to mention the apprentices), therefor the academy is hard to reach. Walking for twenty minutes to reach the teaching place is a bit fun-killing.
Anyhow, the better the mages become and the better their equipment is, the more likely is the possibility to cast teleport spells, which, if casted by the mage, can bring both mage and apprentice to the academy quick (if the spell works).
I myself use to be logged in quite more often than one time a week, anyhow i am vacant at the moment since my girlfriend is here, who lives in the US, therefor we both are not logging in (just read the forums) for the last two and perhaps another two weeks ;)

Generally, it's not the system that is to blame for the inactivity of the mage teachers/students. Learning rules allow to teach one rune per WEEK per apprentice as well as three apprentices a mage teacher can teach per week.
With student inactivity AND teacher inactivity, things slow down to more than that (some teachers are too inactive, some students have lost interest or have too few time to come to the lessons regularily, etc.)

BUT : Nitters had a few good ideas to change the teaching a bit, and we will have one (or even two) new magic teachers in about four weeks after i come back (One of damiens students lacks four runes, one of Sideons students only needs three, and both want to teach if i remember right).
That means about 3-6 new slots for mage apprentices in about six weeks.
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Avalyon el'Hattarr
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Post by Avalyon el'Hattarr »

Some teachers have their portal man :P hehe
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Generally, it's not the system that is to blame for the inactivity of the mage teachers/students. Learning rules allow to teach one rune per WEEK per apprentice as well as three apprentices a mage teacher can teach per week.
Excuse me if i'm wrong but i do believe we took a vote that ended in favor of teaching two runes per week per student to speed things up abit. OR was that one of those polls meant to confuse people by not actually counting?
:?
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Post by Lennier »

One main problem is that the most magic teachers cannot cast teleport spells yet(not to mention the apprentices), therefor the academy is hard to reach. Walking for twenty minutes to reach the teaching place is a bit fun-killing.

Sorry, but this statement makes me crying. Portals here, teleports there. I really begin to hate them and the wish of all to have an own one.

Lots of places are not reachable via portal. But for the academy you have 2 possibilities without to need to walk. At first you can buy portal books to the lighthouse (everyone who has the attributes to be a mage can use the portal at the lighthouse). NPC Neebar sells them. At second mages are able to make portals their own in general.

Who fault it is, when the teachers do not have this possibility? Why they do not teach each other?

And for what this academy is still needed? I also can delete it. Really. We have other options. Like the witchhouse in the forest. Or something else. Teachers, which do not agree with a common system ingame, which come from everywhere (Tol Vanima, Varshikar, Trolls Bane etc.) do not need a special place for it. It is no reason, that not all can reach this place within the next seconds.

In my eyes, this "academy" only would make sense in matter of static quests to become a beginner mage without help of other.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Actually Lennier, it's because the magic systems current standing requires upwards of 75+ levels in a single magic catagory to teach a rune and you lose a certain amount of skill after you teach it. What the academy has is the teaching room. Where we can teach students runes without losing skills and thus avoiding having to constantly PG every week to get back enough skill to teach runes.

Without it it requires every teacher have upwards of 75 level in every magic art ALL the time, being that different runes are taught under different skills. And if you've seen how hard it is to skill up in the magic system after you reach about 50 skill levels and above, all i can say is deleteing the academy at this point will bring everything to a dead stop and won't be helping anyone.

Until the magic system actually gets work done on it the teaching room is basically the only way we can take more then one student at a time with the hopes of finishing them in less then a year IRL.

sad i know.
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Post by Lianis »

I'll bring up two points here, then butt back out.

1. What they are complaining about, with going to the academy, is that once you go with the portal, you have to walk for like 15 minutes to go all the way down the island and then back up, making you go some 150 or so tiles to cross a space of about 15; put in a bridge from where you come in over the water to the academy, and it wouldn't be nearly so much an issue.

2. It would be a very good idea to have at least one more teaching room somewhere. Right now, you are required to be part of the current academy and to follow their IG rules. Which means if you don't agree with one of their opinions you cannot teach.
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Post by Kaila Galathil Travinus »

As a side note....a mage char has poor skills in other craft areas at best. A student learning runes would like to concentrate on RP and learn those runes only. To earn any copper ig gets harder and harder for those non-skilled and 1 silver for a portal to take lessons may not be impossible, but is a hardship.
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Post by Avalyon el'Hattarr »

Lianis wrote:2. It would be a very good idea to have at least one more teaching room somewhere. Right now, you are required to be part of the current academy and to follow their IG rules. Which means if you don't agree with one of their opinions you cannot teach.
Amen.
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Post by Lennier »

Why the mages of Varshikar or Tol vanima do not try to build something?
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Post by AlexRose »

Cos they're spending their money on accommodation atm and the VMA is long dead.
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Post by Lennier »

So rebuild it, or form something new if you do not want to be part of the academy. Or to refom the academy building.

The Academy Isle like it is now was my first work than member of the map team. When it was created noone had a real idea how it would work.

My idea was an autark community of mages, which lives there, in a kind of a big monastery far away from anything, difficult to reach only by the distance. It was a gift. Noone had to pay for it. Now we know, that there are not enough players for this, no real common community of mages. It was not the idea to have only a spot to come to there only 1 time per month only to hand over a rune. The Acadamy Isle failed. Thats a true thing. It need to ba changed. Yes.

What would be your idea? for a new center of mages. Do we need one or it is possible to build up a school with the ingame motivation of single mages in their home towns?
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Post by Athian »

Its possible, Varshikar is already considering it. Though currently as it stands IG (and no offense to the map team) Varshikar seems as if its almost always last on the list for everything. I'm sure you can recall how long we waited for those pigs and those weren't even placed in the right area. The characters of Varshikar of course then will put the academy on the VERY end of the list. first and foremost expanding houses and building new housing and of course some kind of walls will all take priority over an academy.

As characters i'm sure we'd perfer actual citizens coming to join Varshikar rather then a flood of would be mages showing up at all times and bothering us constantly. :wink:
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Post by Tanistian_Kanea »

or perhaps we can actually play these "dedicated" mages they claim to be and live on the isle set for them. instead of going once a month for their rune. if they had a few pigs, sheep farmland and trees the would be set. they would not need to go to the mainland, seeing as it is not wise to use metal. It would actually be needed to get MORE mages to, in order for there to be a true community there, also, mages would rarely be seen on the isle because they would always be on their home island. It would actually be like a modern univercity to go and learn magic, not this, travel across the modern world everday i want to get a new rune, crap. going from say varshikar to this place would be like, flying to australia everyday. when in reality this would be a school where you need to be there everyday. like hogwarts or an actuall univercity. if you don't live close to the place you take up residence. that is why there are so many beds. and have you seen how many chairs there are there? LOTS of mages. but of course noone would want to play this type of mage because there aren't enough mages and it would be boring. WELL let more firggin people learn. another example would be monks from the romanesque time. they lived in their monostaries and spent hours praying, whenever they did something else, it was working. TOTAL DEDICATION. that is what magic should need. TOTAL DEDICATION to the art. practice practice and more practice with close superision for continuos lesson and pointers. a pat on the back when you do something right and punishment when you don't. perhaps no runes for a while. you would be forced to watch our peers pass you by. Lennier i think what you had planned should have been more widely known. but of course as everyone says, learn IG. well the current IG teachers don't want to keep thier skills hidden in true wizzard form. they want to be on the front lines killing things. not sipping a quite cup of tea STUDYING. cough, samantha, cough. but of course being one of the most skilled teachers wasn't good enough for her so she had to become magistrate to. I would like to see some, pushed GM character come in, fix the academy and leave. Perhaps you can say he is traveling the world visiting. when he saw what a wreck the academy was he got disgraced and went to fix it for the decendents of the place, then continue on his way. After getting more teachers so that their can be a communitie of mages there. while only very fiew ever actually travel to the main land. as well, by that time they should be wise enough not to go doing spells everywhere and anytime. they should have been tought it's power and to respect it. when they leave they should be strong in magic and only ever use it when needed. they wouldn't come from the academy saying LOOK AT ME! I'm a mage and i can do magic and you can't. Watch me do something that actually does nothing! Blah blah blah blah blah.
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Post by Tanistian_Kanea »

Athian wrote:Its possible, Varshikar is already considering it. Though currently as it stands IG (and no offense to the map team) Varshikar seems as if its almost always last on the list for everything. I'm sure you can recall how long we waited for those pigs and those weren't even placed in the right area. The characters of Varshikar of course then will put the academy on the VERY end of the list. first and foremost expanding houses and building new housing and of course some kind of walls will all take priority over an academy.

As characters i'm sure we'd perfer actual citizens coming to join Varshikar rather then a flood of would be mages showing up at all times and bothering us constantly. :wink:
Srry for double post. Last point is a good one. We get so many noobs coming here and emiediatly go. Ooooo i want to be a mage. I can be a mage. Can you be patient. Yes yes whatever you need. Can you be tolerant of a slow paced teaching requiring total dedication? Yes yes whatever you need.Can you hold your breath for all eternity? Yes yes whatever you need. Hopefully you get my point.

@lance Want people to understand you? Use actual language. If not get off the board you waiste space.
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