Reviving the dead horse: How can we fix the tragic-system?

[AlexRose]

I understand him.

He said:
Get the frollop out, dear chap, if you will.
Okay, thanks very much; farewell.

[NirAntae]

Would we be permitted to build a rune-teaching room like the one at the academy?

If yes, it will probably be done soon.

If no, there's no point in even discussing it.

[Damien]

No.
One reason : Imagine everyone teaching everyone the big runes.

Results :

- "hidden" flame spells in building entrances (=Sudden death for quite everyone) or teleporters
- fire field spells/teleporters around crosses and altairs
- summoned monsters everywhere you can think of
- teleporters unuseable because surrounded by : field spells/ teleport spells/
- lots of hidden teleporters spreadf all over the place, leading to one place filled with monsters / field spells

That's only one example of what nonsense you can do with magic.
A teaching room not controlled by academy OOC rules would lead to exactly that.

The academy has very few IC rules, practically the only mages not allowed are those who would use the runes for mass-killing-sprees or who's RP is so bad that you cannot imagine them as actual "mages".
The main rules are OOC, every teacher who uses the room is bound to them, every student who is teached with the use of the room must be OOC-registered.

A few "rogue" mages, like Avalyon, learn runes without the teaching room from mages who want to stay unnamed.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

And who says that VMA can't have OOC rules for teaching? Who the hell would be crazy enough to give runes to those that do not deserve it?

We thought at it this way: open an academy where people come and take theory classes. At the end of the lessons, the mages of the academy will pick their students from the most eminent of them. So where's the problem here? The only difference in having a teaching room in a possible VMA would be that we don't have to take the long walk all the way to the academy.

As I said, it still can be controlled by IC and OOC rules.

[Aegohl]

I once volunteered to make a new magic-learning system for Illarion and I was kindly given access to parts of the internal board to do the work. I was then blown out of the water on the boards by Damien and Patric.

I no longer have the motivation to do any work for Illarion, let alone this.

However, if there is anyone who wants to carry the torch, I will do a brainstorming session or two with them.

Personally, I'm of the belief that magic should only be so *special* in a fantasy setting, and it should be a privelidge of all players who havent' gotten in trouble with magic to choose wether or not their character is magically active. Even then, I've offered to make a system that is more restrictive than I personally feel it should be, since I seem to be of a minority.

[Talaena Landessi]

Okay. Since ig is what matters, I wouldnt ask what those rules are as they are meant for ig. But what in the world are these ooc rules?

[Athian]

No.
One reason : Imagine everyone teaching everyone the big runes.

Results :

- "hidden" flame spells in building entrances (=Sudden death for quite everyone) or teleporters
- fire field spells/teleporters around crosses and altairs
- summoned monsters everywhere you can think of
- teleporters unuseable because surrounded by : field spells/ teleport spells/
- lots of hidden teleporters spreadf all over the place, leading to one place filled with monsters / field spells

That's only one example of what nonsense you can do with magic.
A teaching room not controlled by academy OOC rules would lead to exactly that.

The academy has very few IC rules, practically the only mages not allowed are those who would use the runes for mass-killing-sprees or who's RP is so bad that you cannot imagine them as actual "mages".
The main rules are OOC, every teacher who uses the room is bound to them, every student who is teached with the use of the room must be OOC-registered.

A few "rogue" mages, like Avalyon, learn runes without the teaching room from mages who want to stay unnamed.

Who's this everyone your talking about Damien? The VMA would have it's own set of teachers and those would be the teachers that would make use of the teaching room the same as with the current magic academy. We in no way were planning on handing out the teaching rune to every single mage through our doors along with the password or key to a teaching room. And that should be fairly obvious.

The same thing you describe can happen with JUST the one teaching room on the isle. So what makes a big difference about having another one in another academy. If you need a GM moderator to watch the log files to make sure none of us are giving all the runes in one shot without RP i'm sure someone could be assigned to do that. We have seers who pretty much police Illar anyway, i don't think it'd be to hard for them to check in on us.

Also IF our academy did decide to move at a faster pace then the traditional magic academy lets say 3 runes per week (I doubt we'd do that many or ever any more then that) Again i don't see the major problem. Role play lessons would still take place, the substance would still be added to the system. In honesty you must consider the fact that we can't even regulate the mages in the academy anyway. IF there players act fine until they have all there runes and then go on a killing spree, it's pretty much doesn't matter what room in what building they used.

I think if anything we'd follow the same if not only slightly different rules then the magic academy. We might take one or two extra students but probably only as much as our individual rp would allow. The major thing that worries you is making sure that the magic system doesn't start getting abused, But the GM's as stated, in your own words no less, you can moniter pretty much any part of Illarion at any time. So if there's still a problem i'm not seeing it.

[Djironnyma]

simply reason, MA is neutral, VMA isnt neutral, and thats it....

edit: and dont forget, the VMA location havent the IG-COnditions for a teaching room, that isnt only a roome with a artifact or so

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

What the hell is that supposed to mean? VMA not neutral.. Have you seen Varshikar attack other cities, do mass murders and sacrifices to dark gods? Stfu and don't talk about you don't know, thanks.

And by location you mean the statue that allows only mages to enter? Were you drunk when you wrote this, or you just haven't read the what was written above? It would be a magic academy not a friggin rune bazar.

[Djironnyma]

What the hell is that supposed to mean? VMA not neutral.. Have you seen Varshikar attack other cities, do mass murders and sacrifices to dark gods? Stfu and don't talk about you don't know, thanks.

And by location you mean the statue that allows only mages to enter? Were you drunk when you wrote this, or you just haven't read the what was written above? It would be a magic academy not a friggin rune bazar.

Varshikar is a city, it can be never neutral at least the VMA support Varshikar, that isnt neutral.

Like i say, the location of the VMA hasnt the ig conditions for such a room. that has nothing to do with who can enter or not. it has to do how the room ig work, what give him his power

[Athian]

Thats if you thought we still planned to use that tiny little 'library' we were given. You know not disimiliar to the tiny housing we were intially given . No i'm sure If we decide to put it where we're thinking of we could find some form of RP for that reason. This is a game of RP after all. And the Academy itself wasn't always there. There wasn't any artifact there until Someone in charge "decided" there was an artifact there. Thats completely rp based and has nothing to do with a technical limitation.

Also it'd be appreicated if people didn't instantly try to shoot the idea down. For the longest time ive had to argue with the rest of you most inactive teachers about just trying to get the teaching system to move faster. and everytime you pull this "There's so many reasons we can't" nonsense. That really doens't look like anything but elitest nonsense from the POV of other players. The system isn't meant for just Damien, Dji or myself. So we should be doing what we can to think of a way for help better the process. not just coming off and saying every stupid trivial reason why it can't be done

[Kevin Lightdot]

Thats if you thought we still planned to use that tiny little 'library' we were given. You know not disimiliar to the tiny housing we were intially given . No i'm sure If we decide to put it where we're thinking of we could find some form of RP for that reason. This is a game of RP after all. And the Academy itself wasn't always there. There wasn't any artifact there until Someone in charge "decided" there was an artifact there. Thats completely rp based and has nothing to do with a technical limitation.

Also it'd be appreicated if people didn't instantly try to shoot the idea down. For the longest time ive had to argue with the rest of you most inactive teachers about just trying to get the teaching system to move faster. and everytime you pull this "There's so many reasons we can't" nonsense. That really doens't look like anything but elitest nonsense from the POV of other players. The system isn't meant for just Damien, Dji or myself. So we should be doing what we can to think of a way for help better the process. not just coming off and saying every stupid trivial reason why it can't be done

*signs*

It's always been like this with everything though, and I'm not gonna say I've never been part of an arguement because I'd be a liar. Though one of the reasons I tend not to anymore is because of the continuous stuff going on about... well, stuff.

There may be things some people havn't thought about, but we should all work together as a community, not seperate groups/people each wanting this or that and not accepting much else. THat's the way it goes in rl very often and I personally atleast think sucks.


And in general, I'll just give my points for those who care to keep count of whom agrees thinks what. I may not be completely informed about things though, so excuse me if I miss something.

Only one magic acadamy? Well, it is kind of annoying, there should be a few places one could teach, there could be rules asto teaching globally, though not just one place for it. 'Evil' chars so to say could not learn magic unless they hid it, nor teach it, so then what drives the 'bad guy' mages? Nothing? Why? Well because oocly no such thing is allowed. I don't say "Give every town, group, god their own academy." I'm saying make a few things. Set ooc rules to magic sure, so that it does not totally go wrong, but think about those 'different' chars who would be able to learn magic, and are only halted oocly.

Personally, I think we should have something like, the MA, an alternative one(VMA? It's the only other acadamy I know that was here before the system came to my knowlage). And one wich is basicly 'free' from most things, for any teacher to use(With a few ooc limitations maybe to keep some order), giving those 'different' chars a chance to learn it. I do not think only those purely 'good' chars should be able to learn magic.

Or perhaps we should just make teachers able to teach without an artifact, and then make up some kind of tool that logs all these things into a seperate file, that logs all magic teaching(I assume that will not be too hard to make, as to my knowlage we have the same for gm tools.). Mages could still join an acadamy to teach together, but they could also stand alone and teach, with their own ic rules for it.(With likely a few ooc limitations, and when I say a few I mean a few, not a hundred.)

I do not see really why a teacher should only be able to teach just a few students, especially now that there are only a few teachers, and active ones even less. It should not go completely overboard with 50 students at a time, but that would not even be possivle for the teacher oocly I assume, so that solves it'self.
So if anything, atleast I would think increase the amount of teachable students a little untill you either find something else that will fix this or all teachers become active again.

This is about all of the more important stuff I have to say on this topic right now, inform me if something is unclear, or there is something I havn't thought of.

[Cliu Beothach]

Curse the MA and their neutralness!

[Aegohl]

What's silly, really, is that the VMA has existed since the old magic system (from god knows how long ago) and has been waiting for a working magic system since then very patiently...

Meanwhile the MA was made for OOC reasons by a couple of staff members who were in a rush to implement the new magic system.

I've always been of the opinion that we should invest in our players--especially when they've invested so much of their time in waiting patiently for this system to work. I can think of no organization in the game who would be more worthy of the ability to teach runes than the VMA.

[Nitram]

Its dumb to bring up this discussion again.

The VMA was not chosen as Magic Academie because we would give this way the privilege of learning magic to Varshikar.

The Academie that was created is neutral. Thats the whole reason and further discussions about this are not needed since this was done allready one year ago.

[Llama]

No.
One reason : Imagine everyone teaching everyone the big runes.

Results :

- "hidden" flame spells in building entrances (=Sudden death for quite everyone) or teleporters
- fire field spells/teleporters around crosses and altairs
- summoned monsters everywhere you can think of
- teleporters unuseable because surrounded by : field spells/ teleport spells/
- lots of hidden teleporters spreadf all over the place, leading to one place filled with monsters / field spells

That's only one example of what nonsense you can do with magic.
A teaching room not controlled by academy OOC rules would lead to exactly that.

The academy has very few IC rules, practically the only mages not allowed are those who would use the runes for mass-killing-sprees or who's RP is so bad that you cannot imagine them as actual "mages".
The main rules are OOC, every teacher who uses the room is bound to them, every student who is teached with the use of the room must be OOC-registered.

A few "rogue" mages, like Avalyon, learn runes without the teaching room from mages who want to stay unnamed.

Solution:

TONE DOWN MAGIC.

And make it more widely avalable.

Mages seem overpowered, the only thing thats stopping them from killing sprees, is OOC rules.

They;re more then capable of eating up the best fighter.

[Taeryon Silverlight]

No.
One reason : Imagine everyone teaching everyone the big runes.

Results :

- "hidden" flame spells in building entrances (=Sudden death for quite everyone) or teleporters
- fire field spells/teleporters around crosses and altairs
- summoned monsters everywhere you can think of
- teleporters unuseable because surrounded by : field spells/ teleport spells/
- lots of hidden teleporters spreadf all over the place, leading to one place filled with monsters / field spells

That's only one example of what nonsense you can do with magic.
A teaching room not controlled by academy OOC rules would lead to exactly that.

The academy has very few IC rules, practically the only mages not allowed are those who would use the runes for mass-killing-sprees or who's RP is so bad that you cannot imagine them as actual "mages".
The main rules are OOC, every teacher who uses the room is bound to them, every student who is teached with the use of the room must be OOC-registered.

A few "rogue" mages, like Avalyon, learn runes without the teaching room from mages who want to stay unnamed.

Solution:

TONE DOWN MAGIC.

And make it more widely avalable.

Mages seem overpowered, the only thing thats stopping them from killing sprees, is OOC rules.

They;re more then capable of eating up the best fighter.

ROFL! you guys are so awsome! Don't start to bitch about mages again, if you know NOTHING about being a mage. The power of magic was lowered several times, aswell as the mana you need for the spells was increased. STOP bitching about overpowered mages! You have no idea how hard it is to own as a mage, thanks to all that warrior's pos bitching, who know exactly NOTHING.

[Damien]

Mages are not "overpowered". Samantha (who had an archmage ring) and Avalyon (Who had two, looted from Samantha) don't have these anymore, those were the things making them that uber-effective (the items don't exist anymore or have been disabled/deleted).

Most other mages cannot even kill one or two mummys without running out of mana.

But you can MISUSE magic spells in a way that gets, if unfairly used, random people killed (just imagine field spells when they are hidden by things like trees or building entrances), or you can place them on vital areas like crosses and other stuff,etc. etc.

[Athian]

Its dumb to bring up this discussion again.

The VMA was not chosen as Magic Academie because we would give this way the privilege of learning magic to Varshikar.

The Academie that was created is neutral. Thats the whole reason and further discussions about this are not needed since this was done allready one year ago.

This means we have nuetral organizations for magic. Which is what we wanted for fairness. So now that we have one Why can't we branch out and make other MA's nuetral or not? It won't effect people learning magic, because as you said there's already a nuetral place they can learn magic from.

So Again i'm not seeing the problem with the idea

[AlexRose]

Its dumb to bring up this discussion again.

The VMA was not chosen as Magic Academie because we would give this way the privilege of learning magic to Varshikar.

The Academie that was created is neutral. Thats the whole reason and further discussions about this are not needed since this was done allready one year ago.

This means we have nuetral organizations for magic. Which is what we wanted for fairness. So now that we have one Why can't we branch out and make other MA's nuetral or not? It won't effect people learning magic, because as you said there's already a nuetral place they can learn magic from.

So Again i'm not seeing the problem with the idea

Agreed. I was really annoyed when we'd been an active academy for ages and then the MA had the only teachers. I don't think that it's very good that over a year later the VMA STILL cannot teach.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

/Signed

The reasons brought against the VMA are silly. I see no good reason why, like was said, an academy that existed before the MA can't teach.

[Miriam]

Was wenn es in jeder Stadt eine Art Akademie gäbe?
Das Lernen und Lehren wäre dann nicht mehr an einen einzigen Ort gebunden, aber jede Akademie könnte zu bestimmten Themengebieten etwas anbieten und sich auf etwas spezialisieren.

--------------------------------------------------
How about building an academie in every city?
There academies could teach only special subjects ...

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

This is an IG matter.. if a city has chars willing to teach and money to build an own academy, why not?

[Lianis]

As far as I can tell, the only 'problem' with the VMA is that the magic system has been set up with an intentional technical flaw... that you can't really teach the runes outside of your magic room without consequences that are prohibitively high.

You have a 'neutral' MA now (though I really, really don't see how it's neutral. To me it looks like it's "neutral as long as we like you and you are a good-aligned character".) To be honest, the VMA would probably be *more* particular about its students, not less, because anything a student of the VMA does would reflect on the town and all their citizens, whereas the MA has no past, no history, no connections, no cohesive group spirit or community RP.



I've tried to stay out of all of the magic-discussions, but I think this is becoming really, really unfair to some of the players. Strict control is being kept over the use of magic ingame, for no real reason other than 'you can'. I have never, in all my years of gaming, seen anything so intentionally geared to foster elitism.

Yes, magic should be 'special'... it should be very hard to learn enough magic to be able to be a 'problem', because most problem characters would get weeded out before that was possible. But there is no sound reason that it should only be obtainable through ONE group who has to accept you.

And if your main obection is the possibility of irresponsible players getting ahold of runes... you are delivering a HUGE insult to those players who would be a teacher at the VMA (who, incidentally, are teachers at the current MA, so where's the objection?) Also, what makes anyone think the VMA wouldn't be watched over just as closely, if not moreso, by at least part of the staff?


It is said, over and over, that the players have the power to evolve the IG-world. You are proving this to be a lie. I understand the need to have an unaffiliated MA (I still refuse to call it neutral, because it isn't in my opinion.) But now that there is one, and it is well established, I see NO reason why the player-formed academy that has been around for years can't be given the same advantages, especially since the MA was given everything and the VMA would have to gather the materials and resources to make anything they wanted (such as a teaching room).

[Taeryon Silverlight]

I think there should be some room, somewhere in the wilderness, where any mage with the rune bhona can give runes to students. Of course, they would have to follow the same rules like the ma (two runes per week, runelvls and such), but it would make the teaching of evil mages possible. I could imagine, for example, that Avalyon could raise some nice nasty apprentices.

You could put such a room into a special cave, which is only openable with a pw or a runecombination, or whatever, like the room of the MA.

[Karl]

MA = Magic Academy..
VMA = Varshikar's Magic Academy?

[Taeryon Silverlight]

MA = Magic Academy..
VMA = Varshikar's Magic Academy?

exactly

[Karl]

Piteous.

[Schule von Gobiath]

Kann mir das jemand kurz bersetzten?

[Lance Thunnigan]

I agree with Lianis and Athian.
\signed