Cooking/Nutrition System Suggestions

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Llama
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Cooking/Nutrition System Suggestions

Post by Llama »

Suggestions for the cooking system

I was having a rethink about the cooking system, and I think I have (at last) a good idea.

Cooking should be given much more importance (see nutrition suggestion below), and shouldn't be as simple as it is currently.

Cooking should be divided (though not by skill) into three sections:

The 4 sections

"Survival Cooking", "Soups", "Gourmet Cooking","Other"

Survival Cooking is the simplest. Its basically food which you can obtain and cook in the wilderness. Tool Required: Camp Fire. The food which is avaiable to cook should be rather limited; and should be based on actually having food, rather than presenting it. It doesn't require much time, and the food isn't prepared carefully, neither is it particularly attractive. Example: Smoked Fish, Smoked Meat, Cooked Shrimps. Pretty much anything you can find outside of town. No quality rating. Stackable

Soups. These fall under gourmet cooking in a way. This is liquidy food, which requires a pot to cook, water, and of course fire. The material of which the soup is going to be made has to be prepared earlier. If its vegetable matter, then the food has to be crushed (using a tool), if its meat, then the food has to be chopped (using a cook's knife). The items are mixed, and left in the pot. After a rot cycle, wooden bowls may be used with it, in order to obtain the ready made soup. The yield is always the same amount. These foods have a quality rating (depending on the skill of the cook), and a state rating (depending on the amount of materials used). Unstackable. Example: If you use 3 tomatoes to make soup, it'll be Good Light Soup. If you use 20, it'll be Good Thick Soup. Example: Tomato soup, Broccoli Soup, Fish Soup, Meat Soup.

Gourmet Cooking. These are the most complex. These require a cooking stove (oven) in order to produce; and also require some preparation time in order to fulfill them. The ingrediants are first prepared; and each step is important. Example: Flour + Water = Dough. Dough + Honey= Sweet Dough. Sweet Dough + Cherries = Sweet Dough with Cherries. Sweet Dough with Cherries (when used) = Raw Cherry Cake [ie he shaped it to the shape of a cake] Raw Cherry Cake + Stove. [waits for rot cycle] Cherry Cake complete. These foods require a rot cycle of cooking in order to be produced. They have a quality rating depending on the cook who made them. They are .: Unstackable.

Other. Food which requires some prepare time, but not any cooking. For example a salad, or sushi; or something...

Survival Cooking should yield the least skill gain...while gourmet cooking the maximum.

It also allows choices. If you have a raw fish, what should you do? Cook it over a fire? Make fish soup? Or clean it and create a meal?

Skill Increase

This also should be changed.

Once a cook increases a level, the new recipies he gains should be RANDOMISED. This will make it more realistic, as perhaps cooks of different cultures would know different recipies for example. The randomised choices should be equal in food value (example, you learn a foodvalue X which could be broccoli soup, or fish soup, or tomato soup). There is a greater chance for a creature to learn a recipy of his own base. Example a halfling or elf: vegetable based recipies; orc, dwarf: meat; Lizard: Fish ect...
Of course cooks could teach each other their recipies, however; he must be skilled enough to learn it. (Same way as runes are passed on in a way...). Example a level 2 cook could teach a level 1 cook a level 1 recipy; however, not a level 2 one; as the latter isn't skilled enough to learn it.

Tools

A cooking spoon is, in my humble opinion, somethign rather stupid to have as a main tool. Cooking spoons should only be used for soups. Other tools may or may not be needed, depending on the food itself. If you need to mash something; use a masher. If you don't you won't need one :).

======
Eating/Nutrition system

This should also be changed:

1) A person may only eat soup with a cutlary set (yeah i know that you can drink it from the bowl, but you're not going to do that with thick soup)
2) Your food level should decrease every so often, so that after the equivalent of one IG day (spent online), it'll drain totally.
3) When you don't eat for the equivalent of 3 IG days [or depending on your constitution], you start dying. You lose temporarily one point of strength, dexterity, constitution and agility per day spent starving.
3b) How this is done: The food level continues draining, entering the equivalent. Once it reaches its negative max, it gets reset to 0 again; and one point is lost.
4) The losses are repaired with time, if your food level is repaired.
5) If one of the attributes reaches 0 with this drain, you lose one point of that permanently.
6) Survival food isn't very good. If you eat too much, it starts damaging your attributes. You need gourmet/soup/others in order to survive (note that bread doesn't count). After a limit (which is reset after IG days), you can't eat any more survival food; otherwise you take temporary damage to your constitution.
7) The food level depends on the quality multipied by the state.
8) The state level allows a person to create cheap foods [example a chicken soup for poor people wouldn't contain that much chicken; but a chicken soup for a king would be full of it]; or expensive foods at will.
9) You can't get "too full" while eating a meal (soup/gourment), since you would probably stop eating it once you started... instead it fills you up to the full and you throw away the rest. (You wont get sick eating it)
10) Unprocessed foods should have a rubbish food value now...
11) There is a limit to the amount of food you can eat. So its allright if you stock up on apples, but you can't eat 20 of them at one time...this is in terms of MEALS not in terms of food value. This would make it more worth it to eat food with high food value, then lots of rubbish.
=

Those are my ideas.. pretty much... I kind of lyke it... What about you?
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Dónal Mason
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Post by Dónal Mason »

No. It's punishes players too much. You're assuming gourmet=variety. Eating the same meal, no matter how well prepared, isn't good, while a wide variety of 'poor' foods can be much better for you.

Rethink this idea. It really shouldn't be so harsh. We don't permanently lose attributes even when struck with a huge axe, so why should starving be so much of a bigger deal?

Edit: Perhaps instead of punishing players for eating poorly, they should be rewarded for eating well. Enhanced regeneration of health and mana, for example.
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Post by Llama »

Survival foods means scavanging, and cooking them over a campfire, not the best for your health.

Currently the system is too friendly. Ever tried doing ANYTHING when you haven't eaten for a few days? The attributes fall because you're weak from lack of food... its MEANT to punish players, currently cooks are about as important as a sodium toothpick... why buy when you can kill pigs?
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Dónal Mason
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Post by Dónal Mason »

So currently cooks can badly injure your mouth?

Hadrian, if you want people to go to books for food, make it actually give an ADVANTAGE. I told you before, it's no good punishing players. If you do it all the time, it sucks away all the fun. And again, as I said, why lose attributes from starving when getting hacked up with an axe leaves you just fine?
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

I concur with Donal's points.

I dunno if this is just my impression, but if you go without food for roughly 2 or 3 in-game days as it is now, not only does your regeneration rate drop to zero (eventually), but also your skill "power" (for the lack of a better term) decreases till the character gets some nutrition. I may be wrong about this, but from the last few times I played, I had this impression.

Now, I see the point you're getting at, Hadrian, which is making cooking a valuable and significant skill. But Donal is saying something quite important, because in essence, what you're proposing will just punish the casual gamer more and make it more of a requirement to play Illarion as a full-time job.

I'd have to agree with the proposal that better food could have better effects, while common and crappy food does no less than it does now.

Also, consider his point that you could get along fine with less-than-gourmet foods. The other thing about gourmet is that it's essentially nothing better than the low grade; something for noble/aristocrats/generally anybody high-up in the civilized societies. If you wanna look like a bum, you eat from the raw fat of the land. If you wanna look prestigious, you eat gourmet.

Just my two cents.
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

What is so bad about the current system (except that there should be some rebalancing between required skill and food value)?

What are the main benefits of the things you propose?

The whole skill increase section violates some main principles of Illarion's gameplay. In another game, all this might be nice, though.

The tools section has a valid point. Make this a complete concept (listing all required tools and all food items) and maybe somebody has a look at it.

Quality levels for food items seem reasonable. Something for the future.

Using rot cycles to cook food seems to be a clever thing. However, this needs new items. Maybe expand this idea a little.

To the eating system:

1) Well, why? What's the benefit of this?
2, 3, 3b, 4, 5, 6) Yeah, starving n00bs everywhere, blaming this crappy game. Illarion is no life-simulator.
7, 8) I don't really get this "state" thingy but make food value depend on the skill of the creator of a food item seems reasonable.
9) I think it works like this currently. Sort of.
10) I agree, an update of the food values might come soon.
11) I'd rather encourage eating "better" food by increasing its food level alone instead of restricting what somebody can eat; always think about n00bs.
Currently the system is too friendly.
No. Illarion has to become even more player friendly. Think about methods to encourage cooking instead of making it more difficult.
its MEANT to punish players
If I want punishment, I do not play Illarion but go to my local domina. Or argue with martin ;-).
currently cooks are about as important as a sodium toothpick...
Well, people do what promises fun. Add more fun to cooking and eating and people will do it.
why buy when you can kill pigs?
Good question. Maybe because a dish grants much more food level than a ham (this would be an option)?
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Post by Korm Kormsen »

hadrian,

i love that idea of yours!

using something of this sort of nutrition system, not only cooks, but farmers as well would beginn to make sense.
as it is now, who needs food? nobody! the fighters and other adventuerers just pick an apple off the next tree, and thats it.
if they really needed the peacefull people for their own well being, they would be more motivated to protect them.

Donal,

just because the fighting system is unrealistic, should it be mandatory, that all other systems have to be unrealistic too?

gretings,korm
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Korm Kormsen wrote:Donal,

just because the fighting system is unrealistic, should it be mandatory, that all other systems have to be unrealistic too?
I'm only speaking for myself on this, but; I give you three tries to guess why I mainly only play fighters, rogues, fighter-rogues, and the occasional oddball bard or scribe.
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Post by Korm Kormsen »

well, moirear,

try one - it's frustrating to produce something, without finding a customer.
try two - it's boring to do something, nobody apreciates.
try three - it's unnerving to learn, which tool with which other tool on which material is needed. (sword on head is easyly remembered)

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Post by Moirear Sian »

All three guesses are correct, but there's another point in which it's just that I play a game for fun. And the more hassle a game is to play, the less fun it is for me. If you implement parts of a system that punish the casual gamer, it's less attractive for people who don't have alot of time to invest in playing Illarion.
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Llama
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Post by Llama »

Methinks you misunderstood the time bit.

I meant for total time spent logged on... when you log off, the timer stops...and restarts again.

And I used "Gourmet" because I couldn't think of any other word.. sorry :)
What is so bad about the current system (except that there should be some rebalancing between required skill and food value)?
Feeding in Illarion:

Work Work Work... (*shift+click apples*)X20. Work Work Work.

Also food is limited in type, making it seem unimportant. No-one looks for cooks, because food is so easily obtained otherwise.
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Yeah, but what is so bad about basic food being easily obtained otherwise? As I said above, food from cooks should be considered a luxury commodity (and be treated as such - in game terms, giving them a special edge for reward - I find that a great idea), but that's just my opinion.

There were times in Illarion when you couldn't just find strawberries astray in the wilderness of this game, y'know, or when you couldn't just nab flowers for the heck of it.

I think maintaining some simplicity is key to a solid and entertaining roleplaying game. The more it gets boggled down into micro-management, the more realistic it gets, sure, but is that going to make it more entertaining for everybody? Or just for a few select people?
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Post by Korm Kormsen »

yeah....

i suppose, you are right. the hack 'n slayers are majority...

korm
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Dónal Mason
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Post by Dónal Mason »

Excuse me? Wanting simplicity does NOT mean hack n' slash. It actually means that we don't WANT overly complicated systems that punishes players constantly. I don't find such systems very rewarding or fun.
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Post by Korm Kormsen »

for simplicity one could join any of two score UO-freeshards.
i think.

i, personally am here, because i was looking for something special.

(and because a friend of mine, who played illarion years ago, told me, illarion to be something special)


korm
Last edited by Korm Kormsen on Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dónal Mason
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Post by Dónal Mason »

'Special' does not have to mean 'ridiculously complicated and pisses players off'.
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Post by Poots »

Moirear Sian wrote:
Korm Kormsen wrote:Donal,

just because the fighting system is unrealistic, should it be mandatory, that all other systems have to be unrealistic too?
I'm only speaking for myself on this, but; I give you three tries to guess why I mainly only play fighters, rogues, fighter-rogues, and the occasional oddball bard or scribe.

*cough hero-wanna-be cough*
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Post by Moirear Sian »

In no way does a villain-wannabe player like me qualify to represent a majority of players, and that isn't really the point I was getting at. To clarify, what I meant with simplicity is that this game has gotten a whole deal more easy to play than it used to be when I started out. And seriously, that's a good thing. Because the way some things used to be was complete shit. I vaguely remember this one time in an older client where I asked a smith to repair my armor, in a client where there was no durability or breaking items. He was like, "wtf?" That's my general impression of the roleplaying here on Illarion, despite how much some people claim it to stand above the RP of certain UO freeshards or other games with enforced RP environments.

Anywho, yeah, the less entertaining Illarion is to play, the more attractive abovementioned UO freeshards are. Some of them are quite capable of passing for "special" as well, although many here on these forums are slow to admit it.

And what I'm saying - on topic - in a nutshell, is:
- The problem of how cooks/their products are being respected is a roleplaying problem, less a technical one - gourmet goods are a luxury commodity, and the wealthier characters should be buying them, thus giving cooks significance (which is not the case.) Sure! You could foster the game parameters to make an environment where cook(s) is substantial for a perfect character, but that wouldn't fix the issue, only create new ones, i.e. making gameplay ridiculous.
- Instead you could make an improvement out of giving the cook/products a special edge, thus rewarding players, and not having to wait till kingdom come, or rather, until some people just start doing stuff out of roleplaying reasons alone.
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Post by Bloodhearte »

Moirear Sian wrote:All three guesses are correct, but there's another point in which it's just that I play a game for fun. And the more hassle a game is to play, the less fun it is for me. If you implement parts of a system that punish the casual gamer, it's less attractive for people who don't have alot of time to invest in playing Illarion.
I only play killers and fighters for the exact same reason. My only motivation for previously taking up a craft with an older character of mine (Delanroth) is to make enough copper to replace broken weapons and/or buy better ones. Likewise with armor.

But now that I'm playing much more with Mortanius these days, I'm back to the good-ol' fight and don't work routine. Besides, stick-figure noblemen are for p*ssies. :wink:

But anyway,

Why not revamp the nutrition system? We could discuss the health benefits on the boards and come to an agreement on what is reasonable...gourmet foods produced by cooks could offer half or whole hunger revival, while more natural foods...like pork, could replenish 1/4, and lighter foods...like apples, could replenish 1/9 or less.

On a slightly unrelated note, I don't think food-skill should produce better foods that can replenish more health. Why should a cook strive to be a "master cook" with bright yellow for cooking? Cake is cake, and that would discourage working like a bee to get super high cooking skills.

Somebody being a "master chef" is better role played than skill based. I'm a big fan of relying more on imagination and creativity than skills for identifying your character.
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Post by Korm Kormsen »

Somebody being a "master chef" is better role played than skill based. I'm a big fan of relying more on imagination and creativity than skills for identifying your character.
yes, but...

to roleplay a cook, this cook first needs a "economic" base, so he might exsist in the game.
Why not revamp the nutrition system? We could discuss the health benefits on the boards and come to an agreement on what is reasonable...gourmet foods produced by cooks could offer half or whole hunger revival, while more natural foods...like pork, could replenish 1/4, and lighter foods...like apples, could replenish 1/9 or less.
that sounds perfect to me. it gives cooks a reason to be, without letting starve people who dont know a cook.

(but make it 1/8 for apples. that should be easyer, for writing a program, if the values are double for each step)

korm
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Post by Juniper Onyx »

As a craftsman, I have a few things to say.

The food system already allows for differences in stamina based on what you eat. You eat nothing but apples, and you need more of them. However, eat some bread, you only need a loaf or two. Besides, what kind of Roleplayer would one be if their character ate nothing but Ham (unless they are Orc) all the time? I wouldn't force them to however.

The problem is, I think that food is too attainable. After all, who ever heard of picking apples or cherries year-round? Starwberries too. There is a reason there is a Harvest, and if food just coincided with seasons, we could solve a lot of problems.

Also, I think pigs and other animals should have longer 're-spawn' times so they are not abused as they are now. The supply of food should be proportional to the average number of players IG.

I think if these simple changes were implemented, many more people would rely on craftsmen, cooks and farmers to gather and sell food to them. The supply of 'easy' food simply would be more limited, creating a market for it. I believe simple supply and demand will fix this problem.
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Post by Hu'greu »

If GM had to tool to see how much stuff is sold to what NPC and what kind of stuff they could better plan for mines to dry up and droughts to happen. I think Dusty is on to a good idea with the seasons as well maily because why am I going to pay a farmer when I can pick stuff off of the tree all the time. But in response to the Season make the trees hold more than one apple and stuff like that.
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