Good Guys Vrs. Bad Guys.. The Uphill walk during a Landslide

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Ziel Oden
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Good Guys Vrs. Bad Guys.. The Uphill walk during a Landslide

Post by Ziel Oden »

PO Faladron and I discussed this via MSN. I think it is a good topic to bring up.

Has anyone noticed the vast ammount of hero-wannebes there are? And how little the ammount of Villains there are? There is about a 40:1 ratio in a guess. It truly is insane how little the scum on the shower curtains of Gobaith is. This is my observation:

Everyone is a hero Nowa days. No one wants to fight the vast majority, thus leaving uninteresting RP to simple Chit-Chat. The only bad-guys now are GM controlled super-villains, and not to mention how strong the entire game is.

"Ahh! Help us *cough* me! The city is under attack by demons!"
"Not to worry citizens.. *cough* Citizen! Let the 500 other heroes in this town fight it!"
"Hurrah! I will watch, pat the people on the back, then go back to my camp fire!"

Let me bring up some interesting quotes from a post Kasume made..
Kasume wrote:For one thing, I've never even heard of this [guard]. And he's more powerful than three ogres put together. As that's just about what my character can handle, yet I was barely able to hold out for 10 seconds on this guy.
It is true. Warriors now are stronger then any monster fightable, and there are so many warriors even 50 demons couldn't take them all on. Even a GM trying to ban the people for being power gamers couldn't ban them all before he dies.
Kasume wrote:This community is dull. And when someone tries spicing it up in the least bit, they're completely shot down.
No wonder 70% of people don't stick with this game.
I take this to say one thing: People don't even let villains do anything, their first action is "FUX DEM UP!" You cant even LOOK like your bad.
#me wears a small cloak covering his body. Two daggers strapped firmly to his leather belt.
*dead*
Tell me, in real life you meet people truly who are ass holes. But tell me, isn't fighting with them.. Entertaining? Let me get another quote...
Illaron General Info wrote:Find other players and tell them something about your fictive character. Conflicts and Friendships will arise from these contacts. Both is intended
When the gods of Illarion made this blessed game, they intended evil Character. So why is this basically not happening at all? I will give you my theory:
Ziel's Theory of Villainy wrote:The reason why villains, thieves, muggers, murderers, and so on are leaving Illarion faster then a mouse in a commonly used shoe is a simple cause and effect...
1. Villains and Heroes have tough fights in trolls bane.
2. heroes work together and form a guard
3. New villains and Old Villains are too weak to take on this chain of defiance
4. Villains die out.
5. People do not work hard enough on their villains so they die and just stop trying

Cant really say more. This is just some observations and comments, feel free to leave feedback - as always. I do hope to see some neutral characters, and more villains (that aren't "Oh! He has 19 strength so he will pwnzor and I don't need to train him cuz he can kill anything).

- Joshua

(note: I realize this goes against most of my RP for a looong time.. Times have changed, I've realized my mistakes.)
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Gro'bul
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Post by Gro'bul »

I don't think an npc demon has even ever been killed IG. A crit from these things = death for anyone.
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Post by Ziel Oden »

Demon killed in Orc Cave. Demon killed after the portal opened after the Andron Goblet quest.

Those are the only demons I know of, and Wasnt there a picture of Muten Roshi killing like 10 demons at a time in the Muten Shrine?
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Galim
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Post by Galim »

That was before the wipe. now you need a whole group to kill a demon, and many will die while doing that.

and the demon in the cave was just killed because the gm helped a bit and lead its hit on him.
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Post by Fooser »

Ziel Oden wrote: Those are the only demons I know of, and Wasnt there a picture of Muten Roshi killing like 10 demons at a time in the Muten Shrine?
Yes :wink: But Muten Roshi was a legend.


Also, I think the best way to go is gather people in secret (although stuff gets out eventually, its inevitable), see what you come up with to "test the waters". Organization is the villains worst trait in this game (not all, in general I mean).
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Pendar
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Post by Pendar »

Again i come back to i cannot help it if villans are mentall challenged.
I have a villan who has done some rather awful things and will again, you have propably had a nice chat with him in game. How ever he is not a thug so he doesnt get chased by the guard :P
People seem to think villans are super violent killers and rp them as such then moan when they get PVPed and lose.
Villans are also often lazy i refer to specifically those who moan about skills. Many villans take there whippings and i thank them for playing the role.
How ever my character has taken nearly constant playing for 5 months+ to build Pendars skill. If a villan skills up for that long they will be truly feared i am certain.

Demons come in many sizes, some are far harder than others. As some one said a crit from that bugger and your dead. Even a weak demon takes a group.
"Ahh! Help us *cough* me! The city is under attack by demons!"
"Not to worry citizens.. *cough* Citizen! Let the 500 other heroes in this town fight it!"
"Hurrah! I will watch, pat the people on the back, then go back to my camp fire!"
I will watch ? my unskilled warrior jumps in anyway.My non warrior hides or takes the women to safety.

as you will note i am agreeing with many of your points. What it really comes down to though is a very narrow view of what a villan is.
People killing,Petty crimes,kidnappings war mongering is all ammuseing but really ends up in shallow rp and eventual people turning to clouds.
Some awesome "villans" i know...
Moskher hertzche.
Moirear Sian
Aokan Folkbjorn
Athian
Kaja wolfagen
More I am sure if i thought long enough.
They all have one thing in common they are not villans to there core they all simply play roles that placed them in oppostion with others. They will live in my memory for ever and they have not killed that many people. They rped in such a way that i have had meaningful rp with all of them to and fought some of them. Just by adopting a stance in opposition to popularity.

Murderous villans..."this role i so seldom played well"
Kylan se'dorn
Rashmantel
Each have killed with a plot and reason non excessivly they dont come into town and disrupt the rp with killing some one for little reason, you can do this but you will be hunted by heros. We know who you are, you have been stupid we are now really angry :roll:

I do not see a villan online and logg on to hunt them all over the map instead they come to town get pked and moan about how hard it is to play a villan. I find a wanted man entering a fortress of a town like trollsbane often questionable rp any way.
Villans can be very rewarding to play its all about how you do it.
Brian
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Delakaniam
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Post by Delakaniam »

I dunno. I've seen plenty of little villain characters going about under the shadows here and there occasionally. They're certainly there, it's just that Dravish is one of, if not the only one who might be getting a bit more attention for some reasons or others.

[personification]"Oh, they're there alright... *evil cackle*"[/per]

As far as hero-characters go, well.... not all of us non-villains are heroes though, you know :wink: .

--#me sits leisurely on a stocky tree branch in Tol Vanima in delightful non-Fate-of-the-World-rescue bliss, thinking about Life, the Universe, and Everything, and cradling a sizely bottle of elven booze.
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

(Note: I know I'm forgetting more.)
List of more awesome "villains" in the past, of whom I remember from my time and who Pendar didn't list:
- Aristeaus ;)
- Trystyn Gravstyn
- Misjbar
- Grunith Shuth
- Adrian Karmane
- Johann Endan
- Gu'argck
- Malvita Rynal
- Arkadia
- Delanroth
- Two halfling thieves I never learned the names of
- A lizard whose name I can't remember, and his lackeys Vey Gan and another lizard.
- Cyrus and his Blood Orc clan

Yes, I know of many, some of you may argue they are not villains. But trust me on this one thing, in their deepest cores, those characters listed were/are all true villains. They all had those ambiguous, "dual natures"; they were either tendencially chaotic or tendencially evil or even both, but they all had their shades of "neutral" in varying intensity. They worked within the boundaries of whatever possibilities were given at any time. Some were no more than rogues or simple opportunists with some shares of cunning.

The biggest ability a villain has... and which too few players tap into... is becoming "friendly venom" among the in-game communities and spinning intrigues. The villainous character doesn't even have to be particularly bright (they're all nut-cases anyway from the psychological point of view), but spinning intrigues and plots against groups of people, or even against concepts themselves was their daily bread and butter. Many of the listed "villains" also had occasional times when they were met with pure peace. However even in these times, they would not rest to pit their enemies against eachother or turn enemies into temporary allies to rid themselves of other challenges.

Of the ones I listed, only one was the pure murderer type; Cyrus. Many will disagree with me on his RP qualities, but he played the classical villain, this which Ziel deems impossible. Cyrus was actually very successful at his metier, he was banding together yet other ruthless orcs like himself, but the player abandoned the character shortly after his rise. A shame, I was confident that he would bring up a new breed of cold-blooded manhunter orcs who could terrorize the outlands and keep the simple townsfolk of Troll's Bane fearfully huddling in their confinements, practically begging to hire yet other villains to fight the villains.
*hint hint*

All in all, I can only say, the "classical villain" is very difficult, and yes, with your "classical villain" I mean the type who can openly voice violent threats at innocents and heroes alike and actually back up the threats - this type has to be able to kick alot of ass, skill-wise, but for things like intrigue-spinning, you just need some tact, timing, and wit.

Of the villains I listed, only one was thoroughly and openly evil, Trystyn. All other characters hunted and feared the necromancer like a plague. Even those he organized to work for him - loyalty was not something he could buy because his plots were executed with terror. However, he was good at poisoning minds, corrupting people, and weaving conspiracies against certain factions of the "good" folk, while remaining in the shadows more than 90% of the time. The reality is, this character was highly unskilled; he worked almost purely over good villain-RP by meetings with "lesser" villains in game, "sending doves", and forming plots that others carried out for him in occult chains of command, to achieve the goals on his dark agenda. His downfall was that his own henchmen had a tendency to betray him, as well.

So ideally would be, you choose the "sneaky devious villain type" first to build up from; the kind that is not the "open villain" off the start and conceals his/her true nature. Or even better, you don't create a villain from scratch, but have them be a more hero-inclined character first, and then eventually, gradually, let the RPing with other people develop the character further, finally leading to their deep dark fall from the light.

Fooser also mentions a worthwhile point, organization of villains is very oftenly poor, this is another factor in the "alignment imbalance". Look at it this way though, if someone manages to seesaw the effect of balance, this could be thrown back at the faces of those who oppose the "open villains now" with ease. It can be possible if many people make it possible. But yet another problem is then also the amount of players online in-game; because if 12 people sit in town interacting peacefully like normal townsfolk, and the 13th player is sitting out alone in wilderness, there's not going to be much fruitful RP between the alignment factions of "good" and "evil" anyway.

I prefer to not really look at the subject in black and white alone, either; I am a big fan of grey zones and mystery.

"The brighter light shines, the deeper are the shadows cast"

I truly believe that if you let a positively-oriented character "fall from light" by roleplaying, you will generate better storylines and more interesting RP, and most of all, you will have a villain who will have powerful potential - not only by being a villain, but by striking emotional accords within the hearts of their opponents. The most terrifying villain is the one within whom you can see parts of yourself and similarities, as if you were looking into a distorted mirror.

On a final note of conclusion, who of the following two men would seem more horrible to you?
a) The man who kills your lover, your family and burns down your farm, because you happened to be there by coincidence, and defenseless,
b) or the man who's your brother and kills your lover, the rest of your family, then burning down your farm, because you cheated on him with his wife and gypped him in dealings?

They are both horrible, but the bondage of emotional and historical chains makes one appear more horrible than the other, but also more credible because he has motivation for his villainous deeds.

Memento mori. Remember, you will die.
This is especially true for a villain character. ;)
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Djironnyma
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Post by Djironnyma »

good old times....

Image

That was where we burnt down the worhkshop with our orc-clan the horde ...

but to come to topic, it is ever harder to play a bad guy, if it is to hard for you, play a good guy ;) . To speak from my own experience, i think the GMs ever support "bad" guys like good guys, if you have a good idea of curse. And with GM help there isn't a problem with raitos from 40:1.

But something else, Illarion is a RPG. You never can win or lose a RPG. You only can have fun or not and to have fun, you doesnt need to have a hero-slayer-killer-orc ;) e.g. Pilzbaizza was a very bad fighter, but nobody know that, fear is a mighty weappon *g*.

my2cents....
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Djironnyma wrote:e.g. Pilzbaizza was a very bad fighter, but nobody know that, fear is a mighty weappon *g*.
Even when I was playing and Pilzbaizza and the original horde were long gone, they still had a reputation that kept many characters in a state of fear of the thought of Pilzbaizza and others of the elder orcs returning and assembling a new Horde.

Just a little side-note.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

The biggest problem is see is that everyone is far to busy drawing the line in the sand over good and evil, thusly those characters who are either side of the line can be instantly labeled. The point is not to end up on any side of the line but to blur it and draw opinions to each side. since i know my character best i'll use him as an Example.
Athian is one character who works well in differing situations, sometimes he plays the hero, other times he plays the villian, the point is everyone has a dual Nature, thats part of being alive, the major problem in this is that people are so worried about becoming outcasted from trollsbane that they throw themselves into dozens upon dozens of good deems and titles and what not to form that opinion of there character to others. now i'm sure if you went around asking if Athian was evil or not, there are more then a few characters that would outrightly label him so, then there's another group that would disagree, and the final percentage (Devrah) that just think he's an asshole. The point being is that Athian like many labeled Vaillian, isn't evil, there have been plenty of times that the general public doesn't know about that Ath has saved many an ass in Trolls bane. the true point to ihs character is his dedications. He serves three things, his goddess his family and his friends and can on a whim say to hell with everything else. the best played characters are those that aren't concerned with the greater good. i mean for gods sake i stood outside town in full veiw of everyone and brutally immolated Misjbar then walked back into town and got pats on the back for it, now tell me who's really screwed up ya damned townies :wink:
Those kind of qualties are best for making a contriversal character, not quite good not quite evil, and true to him or herself first instead of being a reckless hero. all characters are entitled to there own way of doing things, but by branchng out, and not just going for shock value or violence. hell do what i do, Adopt orphans. i mean Ath loves kids and would never hurt a child but give me a chance to kill Pendar and i'm there with bells on. :twisted: . frankly this is the problem i see is lack of development on the part of players, characters are so one sided especially alot of the new characters that it's hard not to get caught up in the intial good or bad of things. everywhere you look it's all the same. women are coy and flirty and attempting to get married in a day of coming to the island, but when was the last time one got you drunk and picked you pocket, men come in either dumbfounded, womanizers, or brutes, and immediatly seek to make that there only representable side.
so as to all the people in Pendar and Morears list, good bad or self serving, they are all highly interesting characters with more then one side and aren't afraid to show it, including Pendar himself, don't trust your guard captain kids he's as bad as me :wink: . once people begin to get more comfortable with this concept i'm sure the game will liven up plenty. good luck everyone, go inbetween team, indecison is the wave of the future!
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Yes indeed, I second that statement there. ;)

Also perhaps some words of advice to those aspiring to play villains; keep at it. Don't give up. Remember and understand the meaning of the phrase "Just a minor setback!"

An "evil" character of the magnitude of Saruman from Lord of the Rings or Darth Vader from Star Wars will - logically - not develop overnight on Illarion.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Moirear Sian wrote:Yes indeed, I second that statement there. ;)
about Pendar being a dirty cop, hell yes! :wink:
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Gro'bul
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Post by Gro'bul »

Ziel Oden wrote:Demon killed after the portal opened after the Andron Goblet quest.
If it was killed it was by a gm, lots of people clouded and ran their behinds off. It was nowhere to be found some time after, at least noone I know of. We thought it escaped and ran to hide, tried to track it but nothing was found. I never heard anything about it again.
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Post by Ziel Oden »

Athian wrote: the major problem in this is that people are so worried about becoming outcasted from trollsbane that they throw themselves into dozens upon dozens of good deems and titles and what not to form that opinion of there character to others

*yayyyy* someone is smart! This is the EXACT reason why Ko even bothered to help fight the orcs - He wanted to get back into trollsbane. The game is near pointless without it. No one ever goes into the other citys, besides tol vanima to craft and greenbriar to farm and varshikar to sell daggers. And unless RP is spread onto the isle evenly, it will ALWAYS be like this.



But now, I have an urge to follow the post of Aithian, and burn down the shop. :twisted:
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Pendar
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Post by Pendar »

A slight hint very simple, if you play a character in danger of becoming band or no1 wanted make sure you have some simple,fun or merely likeable characters on your account. I play various characters and pendar as a main one.
Result being when i dont feel like dealing with pendars problems i have variety to fall back on.
Much as if banned one can plug in to the crafter or womanizer and have some good old fashion rp. This certainly makes being banned less painful to your evenings play.
Brian

Edit:
Pendar is a perfect angel 8). How ever as athian stated by creating a character with strong and not always saintly beliefs I attempt to get away from being uber hero. Pendar has his own agendas his own morals and is capable of being grossly unfair or enraged or bitter. This breeds conflicts and some people may indeed come to see or already view Pendar as a villan.
He is what he is and i dont play or plan him white or black.
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Thalodos Artemetus
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Post by Thalodos Artemetus »

I think the main unbalance with the heroes vs. villians thing, are the heroes.
Numerous i have walked into trolls' bane only to find a demon (which let's face, you would shit yourself if you'd see it in real life) surrounded by ten or so 'heroes' who seem to have no fear whatsoever. In effect this gives no feeling of fear or sense of occasion to these attacks because the demons are often dispatch by the thirty or so heroes. Perhaps heroes you could rp fear for a change and give some excitement to the rest of us eh?
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Post by Gwynnether »

Lets have a look at Bailey. I think Bailey can't be considered as a real hero. She is not totally 'good'.
She killed several people yet, also in situation where it wouldn't have been necessary.
In her view she is just doing her job. She doesn't see that she is overzealouse and also quite extreme. That's what makes her dangerous.


I also want to mention Hagen. Hagen was just great. Everyone who didn't please him has been called a heretic and burned on a pile.
sheez. I miss the time of Hagen and people burning at the stake.
*g*
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Kylan Se'adorn
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Post by Kylan Se'adorn »

Ziel Oden wrote:It is true. Warriors now are stronger then any monster fightable, and there are so many warriors even 50 demons couldn't take them all on. Even a GM trying to ban the people for being power gamers couldn't ban them all before he dies.

Let’s not exaggerate.


Ziel Oden wrote:I take this to say one thing: People don't even let villains do anything, their first action is "FUX DEM UP!" You cant even LOOK like your bad.
#me wears a small cloak covering his body. Two daggers strapped firmly to his leather belt.
*dead*
Mostly those #me’s describe how they wear a black cloak, which cape is covering their face and they mostly sneak around somewhere and don’t tell their name.
Even our heroes with INT 3 would easily recognize that something is wrong with this person and keep an eye on them and of course suspect them first.
I see nothing wrong with that. I would rather change the side of the street when I across a guy, clothed all in black, than a bank employee.
Apart from that the heros in Illarion made already the experience that they were mostly right with their suspects.
Playing a villain, sneaking along the town wall and just wearing black became a faux pas.




There are good and bad played heroes, as there are good and bad played villains.
I admire the roleplay of PO Pendar, who knows exactly that it was my Char who attacked his wife, killed Paidraig and Colden and is the weilder of Darloks sword.
Pendar, the char, has admissible evidence. More than enough to have good reasons for just hunting my char down. Yet he does not, because his char still has doubts.

Anyway, he will have to admit that Kylan doesn’t make it easy for him.



I should probably show up more often again. I’m just not fond of finding a victim every day, especially when a lot of other troubles keep the people busy, mind you.
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Post by Moathia »

Everyone forgets Callith :P
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Post by Sylathen »

How blind you all are, No one knows but Syla is just as bad as Pendar. He would protect his knights at every cost. I think Pendar has noticed some evil in him, and i think Athian believes Syla to be Shady. But there is more to it, you will just have to look closer to see, Syla hides his emotions and thoughts Just as Stephen did.
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Dravish
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Post by Dravish »

Dravish is a hero, just misunderstood. Not two days past he helped an elderly lady across trollsbane by destroying every obsticle in her path. The evil and villainous guard and other factions of the isle are weak at the most. So yes i do understand what you say, the villains dont stand a chance. Us hero's shall allways win the day. But is that not how it is meant to be? :?
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Post by Fooser »

We all know the guards are really a legalized assassin group made to support certain agendas and oppress the people into following the heirarchy... :wink: :shock:
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Dravish
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Post by Dravish »

Join me Fooser, us hero's should band together and grind this scum into the ground. inch by inch.....
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Post by Fooser »

Indeed, down with the authority

Go heroes


:shock:
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Post by Markous »

Markous is the perfect hero :D He is so perfect, everyone who is not shall die.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Fooser wrote:We all know the guards are really a legalized assassin group made to support certain agendas and oppress the people into following the heirarchy... :wink: :shock:
no no Fooser, the guard isn't a legalized assassin group, they just tend to look the other way, often, when something happens to someone just outside the town walls, or even inside it....thats what i call a believeable guard :wink: oh and MUHAHAHA!
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Post by Ziel Oden »

Markous wrote:Markous is the perfect hero :D He is so perfect, everyone who is not shall die.
He is so perfect he runs away from Ko at first sight.

Tho then again, atleast he has a weakness.
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Post by Faladron »

Fear, as Thalodos mentioned, is one thing nearly noone of all the heroes plays out in a reasonable way.

Their stereotype reply to any danger occuring (be it demon, thief, rampaging orcs, lich, or whatever):

#me draws his weapons.

Can't anyone for once be...scared at times?

Following situation:

Dravish (burning and with his kick-ass bow) enters the shop and demands to see Salathe.
Several other people just stay there and talk to him as if he was some petty thug who can't harm them anyway, yet they were facing an undead creature who was burning constantly and wielding a bow!

Faladron on the other hand hid behind the counter and told his daughter to do the same. The suggestion of a lizard nearby "Distract him and then we all take him on" he replied with a heartly "Are you mad?" and fearfull staring at the skeletton.

Afterwards he got told off a coward. Oh well like I care, I rp'd how I felt Faladron would react in that situation.

Yet I feel as if I'm the only one using that kind of rp in those situations.
Other people mostly run STRAIGHT INTO danger, not caring about their lifes one bit, it seems.

Other situation, different character:

A crowd of people, plus Dravish infront of the shop. As soon as my character noticed it, he turned around and ran off. Then he sneaked towards the situation from the other side using the hedges as cover.
All the time several other people stood in PERFECT line for Dravish to shot his arrows at them. Ohwell it's not my life but I'd try to hide myself if there's danger like that around.

Of all the times I saw a simmilar event, - and I think it's just if I say this now - my characters were the only ones who acted reasonable and tried to save their own lifes at first, as everyone of us would do.

Conclussion:

Most of the heroes around lack common sense and fear at times, thus being a shallow stereotype of "good guys" without any weaknesses who gladly sacrifice their lifes for everything and everyone
never backing off or thinking twice even if the situation means dead for sure (facing a demon, lich, w/e).
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Llama
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Post by Llama »

The suggestion of a lizard nearby "Distract him and then we all take him on"
That WAS my char... who had been told by Slyathen that to join the Knighthood he had to prove himself...and he took on Dravish first time he came to town [and got obliterated]

Hero's are all immagination... I mean Markous is a hero right?

According to Shan > He's a rascist
According to "Orcs"> He's a Stoopid OOMie
According to others > Extrimist
According to those who donated > Good Person

So its all which side you are looking at right?
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