Character Names

[Galim]

Just to proof something, 90 % of times i recognize the known names.

[Cliu Beothach]

I recognize many "known" names as well. It doesn't bother me much, if any at all.

[Galim]

thats your problem than, not mine. if you have such low roleplay demands

[Llama]

RP demands... whats that supposed to mean at all?

The names make no difference, just dont ask them to #i...

[Devrah Liioness]

[sarcasm] You are right, O Wise Galim. How could we let our standards fall so low? How dare we enjoy the game when a character named Lillith, an ordinary name given in many countries and cultures, walks around? Let's all bow to Galim, King of Roleplay, forevermore. [/sarcasm]

[Cliu Beothach]

Yes, because Lillith has "bad" name it means she cannot roleplay.

[Galim]

you misunderstood me. but it is low rp demands whn it is okay for you that the other one isn't able enough to make his own name for his character and when you have no problem palying with Lilliths, vincent Valentins or Myke Meyers, or whatever his name was

[Cliu Beothach]

No, we understand you.

[Lennier]

Wow Lillith is back? I am surprised and can not believe...


2001 and some years later, we had a char in our community with this name. She was a elven lady, knight of the Grey Rose, wife of Aragon ben Galwan. She was the most important part of a very famous quest called "The Ice Crown", which can be read in the libary of silverbrand. In the first conflict with Darlok she left the Grey Rose...

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... t=eiskrone

http://illarion.org/community/forums/pr ... file&u=861
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 16&start=0

This char is the old one? If yes, i am very happy, that one of our oldest player is back (she is back?). If not i hope there will be no missunderstanding with this name.

[Irania]

I think it might be the fact that you aren't following your own rules that could be making everyone so upset. Just because you make them it doesn't seem right that you can break them because then everyone else in game will feel they can.

[Estralis Seborian]

Hehe, good joke Galim, you fool 'em all!

[;-)] Of course we have to reject all names taken from the bible. It is the most read book of the world, far beyond any LOTR or Harry Potter-pulp. No more Adams! No more Eves! No more Marias! No more Rebeccas! No more Balaks! No more Pauls! No more Lukes! No more Marcus! [/;-)]

[Adano Eles]

Everyone who names their daughter Lillith in real life shall be put to death for such evil! ... Or rather get a your respect for using tha name of a woman who had the guts to tell God and His angels that she would rather meddle with demons then play Adams little submissive wife.

@Galim:
I'm not sure what trip you're on lately, but I have the impression that you take some things way too serious. Take my advice and calm down a bit.

[Pendar]

You know what will never cease to amaze me the amount of energy people place into topics that in the end become places to detract from the game, players or staff.
"I am now wading through many pages of this post to be sure i understand it"
By the above statement I do not refer to my other usual gripe "detracting from the game". I instead speak of the long lingering attitude in this community that we would rather argue with each other. Find fault in players, gms, ideas or applications. Than collectively build a stronger game.
You know i could go through this post and pick quotes and say for shame. Weather it is because some people let there usually good ideas and articulate voice be lost to frustration and anger or grind personal axes or simply just post for the joy of watching your own words pop up on screen.

I am not being drawn into this, there were valid points that are now lost and some others I could debate for hours.
I just await the day when people realize we all share a game and community and non of us are ever going to be happy with every direction the game moves in.
As cliu said positive movement can only come from with in the game and players.
Despite some what inconsistent rules, despite loose PGing rules we mostly seem to get a long alright. The amount of energy spent here bickering could surely be channeled into constructive ideas.
This by now no doubt seems entirely off topic how ever it is a characteristic of this community to attempt to entirely devalue some ones opinion if we dont agree.
I have been accused of sucking up, I have been told I pander to GM's opinions and dont speak my mind and numerous other things.
How ever I have personally achieved more interacting with players I have had a problem with via msn and gms via some form of private correspondence than any public out burst.

What’s the end point of this message, posts like this always end up with angry parties and a complete lack of resolution. What is wrong with Illarion post is 5 times bigger than what is right.
The community attitude is saddening at best when people would rather pull apart than add on.
That is the biggest handicap this game faces, the community ethos of pulling down players, opinions or game instead of working to make better, understand or help.
With that I am done
Brian

[Dyluck]

Galim: The difference between Lilith and Vincent Valentine or Mike Meyers, is context, as you put it for the google hits of your own name. If you googled the last two names, they would most likely return 95% results that refer to the same person. Lilith on the other hand would not yield nearly such a large percentage, as Lilith is a name that is used commonly. And like all names, it has an origin which often tends to be a fairly famous person or thing, which explains it's commonality. As it so happens, the prevailance of Lilith may have derived from the goddess, such as the name Athena did, but it has grown to become a common name of its own. Of course, much less common names like Zeus would be much more likely be a reference to the god than not, and likely more subject to rejection. However, I do agree with you that it might be a lot less trouble if all players came up with completely original names for their characters, although it seems to be an infeasable and unnecessary measure.

By the way, I was under the impression that "Lucifer" was a normal name too, at least before it was used to denote Satan, but I am not sure of this.

On another note, I do know a Satan in real life and it's Miroslav Satan (Sha-tan) of the Buffalo Sabres! What's that? Oh right.. right... NHL lockout... grrmml...

[Konstantin K]

why dont you just leave people alone and let them pick any names they want, as long as they dont contain shit like mastaLordMegaKilla56837

If they want to be called Gandalf - let them be freaking Gandalf.

[Aegohl]

Finally, this leads me to Aegohl. The person behind Aegohl -- used to know me off the game. I will not go into detail, but Aegohl has given me, on several occasions, more than enough reasons to assume that he does not like me, and that I should not bother him. Whenever I told him something that also contained questions, I would never receive reply from him. I could practically always sense how the person behind "Aegohl" is rolling his eyes when he reads anything I write, regardless of what I write. He already did this with a previous forum personality of his before he even became GM, and he obviously has some grudge against me, because ever since I returned to Illarion, the person behind this elusive "Aegohl" has done everything in his power to block me out of his life. It is in truth Aegohl, why I am quitting Illarion again for an indefinite amount of time.

Here is the final nail to the coffin, in which Aegohl shamefully tries to get the last word, and make me look like an idiot, yet again:

No. No, it hasn't drawn attention to the improper name and led to it being eliminated. The name was eliminated hours before this argument began, as I had already said.

And, yes, I feel that arguing for (how many pages now?) about a mistake that a player has already dealt with, not to even mention in a language that he has trouble with, on a board he doesn't have an account on, while he is just being introduced to the community, *is* alienating him.

Dyluck may have brought the subject up again, but also Dyluck, Conscience, other people, and myself included, were clearly shifting the subject in a direction of its own. This has absolutely no relation to the "Vincent Valentine", "Musashi", "Raistlin", or whatever name that has been accepted in the past and clearly violated the naming rules. With these words, you are again directing a thread in the direction it was not intended for, nor are you at all considering the content thereof. I deduce something from this.
You are either:
a) xenophobic of the possible results such a discussion could entail,
b) or you are too ignorant to read anything properly without losing your temper with people whom you do not like in the first place,
c) or have some reason I cannot comprehend.

I am quite aware of the definitions of the words with which I use, Sir Grammarian.

As he goes to lengths to mock me in his typical fashion, he also places a statement which he himself might find very original and clever, which is directed toward Dyluck, and somewhat out of place, considering the niveau Dyluck put into his post. If everybody wrote on Dyluck's level of writing and understanding, I think these forums would be alot more agreeable to some people.

I go to mock you here too Aegohl. Such remarks are out of place, and unacceptable for a GM. It's funny that before you were a GM, you were no different. Truth be told, I am surprised you were even selected as a GM. I found your roleplaying capabilities decent, but not outstanding, just like my own. Your commitment towards the game is probably all that speaks for you in my eyes. Drop this offensive attitude of yours, and do yourself a favor of not repeating some mistakes that were committed by someone else in the past, because quite frankly, I see patterns repeating themself which I wish not to further elaborate on.

Guess what Aegohl. You can pat yourself on the back, and you win. You are the first person on Illarion, who has truly managed to draw my dislike. I don't mean a temporary whim. I mean loathing, hate. Now, I really do not like you either, and the feeling is finally mutual. You should work on your short fused temper, lower your profile on the forums, and act more professionally, despite not being paid. I will not kiss your ass just because you work for free. I have put a good deal of my free time into the game as well, that gives you no right to denounce me or anybody else who does the same.

Finally, I am greatly disappointed in Aristeaus and Adano. They too, veteran players, do not even begin with the subject. Obviously they do not read anything either, because when it says Moirear Sian on the post, it must be offensive, without content, and therefore unimportant for Illarion.

Certainly queery a GM about a name which you disagree with, but why on earth create a public topic about a name which im sure the PO was not aware broke the rules...

Excuse me, but not even the GMs had a unified front of who is responsible for this. Apparently, the entire staff is. And there is e-mail address like gm_abuse@illarion.org, only violations@illarion.org. I did not consider this a severe offense, as stated one million times (blunt exaggeration), as that, I thought I'd make it a public topic to discuss the subject, as well. Why you put up a play of surprise why I bring up the subject? A mystery to me, as you should know me by now, Darren.

What's driving players away is rather the way such issues are treated here.
For the sake of goodness, can this never be put to rest or at least be discussed in a civilised way?

If I were the player complained about like this in absence, I would feel pretty pushed back by the community.

You too, state that what I did is downright false and stupid.
You do not consider for a split-second that what you write there is an offense to me. It is an over-generalization, and I do not believe that you got the comment from the player in question that they felt pushed back at all. Aegohl even states above that his/her forum account as well, was yet to become a novelty for the new player -- the chances, that he/she read this before the case was closed, are equal to zero, unless someone is lying above. Obviously, some people can neither read, nor combine given statements into a greater whole, and your native language is not a valid excuse in this case, because I know your grasp of English is rather good.

In reference to Aegohl's latest reply, Dyluck wrote this:

You sound rather skeptical of my advice and intentions, regrettably. However, I still contend that "alienating" does not properly describe your mentioned symptoms, and that the word's ascribed negative effects towards the player himself was not intended/imminent, nor was the player himself or his actions the real point of discussion/scrutiny.

In closing, Dyluck says it all within a single paragraph, for which I had to post this ungodly long statement to clarify things for the people who are inable to read and understand what they read.

The only one being alienated on this thread here is clearly me.

And with that I make my leave again.

I will not bother you anymore with my putrid, oozing presence, because obviously there is more than enough of that around here, making my presence redundant.

Good-bye for now, Illarion.

Eric

I went way out of my way to appease you, Eric. How many times did we discuss things in private? Many, many times. I apologized to you for things that I felt I may have done wrong, while still asserting things that I felt were right. It is becoming more apparent to me that that isn't what you want. You want me to agree with you wholeheartedly on everything you say.

My problem with this thread is unique to this thread, and has nothing to do with past arguments. Contrary to your belief, I am quite capable of finding a singular action offensive without finding the person behind it offensive. Send a PM to a GM and tell him that the name is unacceptable. You now have a solution that doesn't offend anyone and fixes the problem, which, was fixed no less than 9 hours before this thread even began.

What have I done to make you believe that I've blocked you out of my life? I didn't re-add you to my messenger, that is so. I even told mutual friends that I didn't wish you to be on my messenger. However, this was before I was a GM. Now every player has been welcomed to add me to their messenger at whim. You just never added me, if that was what you wished. Even then I wasn't saying that I wanted you as an enemy. All that said is that I wasn't looking for a buddy.

What questions have remained unanswered? We've talked often over private messages, and I've tried to, repeatedly, appease your anger at the establishment. I really have no clue what you're getting at there.

All any of this communicates to me is that you want constant access, eternal friendship, absolute agreement, and subservience from GM's. I just don't have the time to be your GM, then. Perhaps another.

And a great congratulations on trying to accuse me of being a corrupt GM, yet again. This is why we come to such great footing all the time.

Cheers,

Aegohl

P.S. The answer is C, yet again.

[Moirear Sian]

(Replies to all fragments left out for the sake of decency)

It is becoming more apparent to me that that isn't what you want. You want me to agree with you wholeheartedly on everything you say.

That's nonsense. Someone who finds discussions with someone interesting is unlikely to agree with the person they discuss with. I can imagine though that this is an alien concept to you, if all your mutual friends agree with you on everything and nod their heads to everything you say.

My problem with this thread is unique to this thread, and has nothing to do with past arguments.

Of course it doesn't. Re-read your initial post on this thread, and try to tell me that again, in all sincerity.

Send a PM to a GM and tell him that the name is unacceptable. You now have a solution that doesn't offend anyone and fixes the problem, which, was fixed no less than 9 hours before this thread even began.

Do you still not understand the intent of the thread or are you trying to insult me? Did the player tell you he or she was offended by the thread? I need to know before we can continue discussing that subject like grown-ups.

However, this was before I was a GM. Now every player has been welcomed to add me to their messenger at whim. You just never added me, if that was what you wished.

I did not want to be considered a suckup, because I have been slandered such in the past by people attending to this game, be it players or staff. Just like people go into lengths of claiming that all I do is try to tear this game apart, and that my style of discussion and posting is wrong -- after all the amount of time I've put into it.

Even then I wasn't saying that I wanted you as an enemy. All that said is that I wasn't looking for a buddy.

Are you aware of the inherent insult here, or is it deliberate?

What questions have remained unanswered?

I can't remember, and my inbox traffic is too high to check up on it. I assume yours is even higher, so let's just agree on that it was not important. I am thankful you put up the time anyway, despite however much you may loathe me.

We've talked often over private messages, and I've tried to, repeatedly, appease your anger at the establishment.

My "anger", if any, at the establishment, pales in comparison to the time I've put into it. Think carefully about that.

All any of this communicates to me is that you want constant access, eternal friendship, absolute agreement, and subservience from GM's. I just don't have the time to be your GM, then. Perhaps another.

Every GM and staffer, by now, treats me with respect, even when we disagree. Why can't you?

And a great congratulations on trying to accuse me of being a corrupt GM, yet again.

Untrue. I have said that you *might* be *endangered* of *becoming* a corrupt GM, several times, and you twist my words around and slander me so as if I had stated several times that I have slandered you corrupt GM. Take that back, please.

Eric

PS: Might not be my last post, if ignorance may continue to fester like this.


--



As I've lanced the thread, I'd like everybody to actually stay on topic, thank you.

The subject is about "character naming rules". Not a specific character name or the other.

Personally, I think they should either be very strict rules, or they should simply be guidelines, just like the powergaming rules should be turned into guidelines of proper roleplaying. If someone is disruptive to the game, that can be fixed, but it can't be fixed that people go complaining on the boards about other people's roleplaying, character names, or other minor things. That is alienation. Not what I am doing.

[Lady Arynne]

All you two are doing by posting this in public forum is allowing it to become a big drama, and it's really not professional or necessary for either of you, imho. Please take all this off the public forum as it i now a debate between two people and no longer on-topic at all anyway.

Thanks,

CL

[Moirear Sian]

I have already privately asked Aegohl to do the same, which he did not.

Back on topic, please.

As I've lanced the thread, I'd like everybody to actually stay on topic, thank you.

The subject is about "character naming rules". Not a specific character name or the other.

Personally, I think they should either be very strict rules, or they should simply be guidelines, just like the powergaming rules should be turned into guidelines of proper roleplaying. If someone is disruptive to the game, that can be fixed, but it can't be fixed that people go complaining on the boards about other people's roleplaying, character names, or other minor things. That is alienation. Not what I am doing.

It is undeniable that several people who have posted on this thread are guilty of the above. I do not want post any names, but we know who they are. Hell, they hopefully know who they are. My thanks and respect to those who have done the opposite.

[Estralis Seborian]

Ah, back on topic, finally.

We currently have 13 name rules. There are some very strict ones among them, some are not strict.

1. A character must have at least one first name and can have any amount of surnames
2. First names and surnames start with an uppercase letter
3. First names may not include existing words
4. Surnames may not include any modern words
5. No names of well-known persons from real life (RL) are allowed
6. You must be able to speak the name (i.e. there must be some vowels in it)
7. There are no spaces behind a name and no double spaces between parts of the name
8. A title is not part of a name. You can add titles in the game with !prefix Title and !suffix Title
9. Every first name and surname must consist of more than one character
10. No letter is repeated more than three times in a row
11. The whole name may not include numbers (neither arabian nor roman)
12. Names have to fit a medieval/fantasy enviroment and the race of the character
13. Very well known names of characters taken from novels, games or films are not allowed

#10 is a very strict one; if aaa=true then Name=bad. #12 is not strict; it is up to us to decide if a name fits a race or not. There is no definition, no list of elf names, no nothing. Same holds for #5 and #13. What is "well known"? There is no definition for this either.

If I recognize a name that could violate #5 or #13, I ask myself two questions: Is this name really well known to a majority of the community? And is it clear that the player means just the person I have in mind? Examples: Gimli is a very well known LOTR-char. However, it is a fitting name for a dwarf. If I now see a name like "Gimli Khalmo", I hit the accept-button without thinking twice. Rejecting this name would be totally stupid, nonsense.

Anyway, I ask all of you to moan less and to play more. This is a game, not a court. If you encounter a name that might not fit the rules, well, give a damn about it except it disturbs your roleplaying. The main reason why there are name rules is not to terrorize players, but to maintain a certain level. We want fun for everybody, no "Your name sucks"-bullthingy.

[Moirear Sian]

Estralis: I am not even accusing the GMs of anything, in case you have not noticed. Alternating between guidelines or rules is merely a suggestion.

This is a game, not a court.

[Pronon Palmsuger]

I certainly haven't read this entire thing (Im so sick of reading after researching AIDS for 12 hours straight) but from what I have read....I dont even know what to say, I really could go either way on the issue, I don't play final fantasy or mayn games at all so I wouldn't know them, but if someone else does I see there could see some "confliction"

Theres a few names that always remind me of something real (I.E. Alicia Scarface) but once you get t playing with the person its very easy to ignore the real life confliction, most players are good roleplayers and when they play well its easy to ignore some name conflictions.

I certainly Respect your opinion Moirear and I understand EXACTLY where your coming from. So really I can go either way on this whole issue.


One thing that has and allways will bother me is people insisting to see Consciences RP name (No Donal its not me as you accused me of eariler) Simply not knowing someones actual name is no reason to discredit what they say, especially in a roleplaying community where few know anyones real name.

Serisously, what does it matter? Thre are no "Roleplay Experts" so its not like someone has a proffsional opinion that should be taken over someone who does not? Some people who insist on knowing Im sure simply want to take it out on him IG. When someone says something you disagree with, many players treat that person lower IG. Just listen to what he says, take it into consideration then reply if its necessary.


Another thing I dont want to see is this "oh lets stop this, its oh so silly" that never has nor will it ever solve anything. People need to learn to conceed, Serisouly, part of the reason people leave is because things dont get settled and other people are confused because issues are never resolved. Just let them Duke it out until we solve the issue, if you dont like how "primitive" it is then don't participate, its that easy.

[Dyluck]

If I recognize a name that could violate #5 or #13, I ask myself two questions: Is this name really well known to a majority of the community? And is it clear that the player means just the person I have in mind? Examples: Gimli is a very well known LOTR-char. However, it is a fitting name for a dwarf. If I now see a name like "Gimli Khalmo", I hit the accept-button without thinking twice. Rejecting this name would be totally stupid, nonsense.

I disagree here, especially with that last sentence, and this is where the subjective nature of this task shows its difficulty. Considering all the factors inherent for analyzing that name, I'd have to say this name was on the borderline, and I can't say that either accepting or rejecting this name would be "totally stupid nonsense", as there are justifications to go either way. I must point out that in your reasoning of "It is a fitting name for dwarf", this only holds true BECAUSE it was the name of a very well known LOTR dwarf, which was the negative factor your reasoning was supposed to be saving. By this logic, all popular names will always be fitting for the race of the character with said name, and lends itself to Illarion having names like Legolas Khadien or Gandalf Khanson, which I think may not be a good thing. I'd also have to conclude, that for the answers to the first two question you ask yourself, I would answer Yes and Yes, as I highly doubt he got the name Gimli from another source besides LOTR.

Personally, and that's really just me, I would have deemed Gimli as not THAT well known, at least before the movie made LOTR that much more popular, so perhaps I would have accepted that name. However, as I said, I disagree with the logic by which you came to the clear-cut decision embodied in the last sentence.

[Pendar]

Another thing I dont want to see is this "oh lets stop this, its oh so silly" that never has nor will it ever solve anything. People need to learn to conceed, Serisouly, part of the reason people leave is because things dont get settled and other people are confused because issues are never resolved. Just let them Duke it out until we solve the issue, if you dont like how "primitive" it is then don't participate, its that easy.

I know that was in part me how ever people seem to consistantly misunderstand my meaning when I post about "detracting" and the difference between positive and negative critisim.
Here is my way of adressing above issues......
We have a problem currently.. the problem is the rules with names.
With the name rules being open to interpretation it is possible that certain players become frustrated when there name is declined and they then meet a blatently stolen name in game.
As such I can only prepose we go two ways,
1. We get perhaps a few extra people to check names and do the goggeling on that name. Perhaps supply a space were a GM/name checker can leave a brief comment as to why a name was turned down.

2. We relax it entirely only not acceptin King George and 133slayerofyourmumPWNAGE007. There by allowing most names through and we all just RP haveing never heard of VV or duncan mc'cloud.

Truly i feel that is the best way to progress and would solve a small gripe in the community.
This is not an issue to me, I get annoyed when I get a name turned down and see some more questionable ones accepted but i realise its subject to who checked it. One time it was a large issue to me I pmed a GM discussed it and got it resolved

Duke it out until we solve the issue

Please show me what we have solved here, please show me what the flame wars and outbursts and pettyness people display has ever solved on these forums. ?

Brian

[Konstantin K]

Oooooooh!
I think I KNOW who Aegohl is... hahaha, yeah, that explains a lot.
Actually, makes a lot more sense.
Another anti-K.

[Contrary to your belief, I am quite capable of finding a singular action offensive without finding the person behind it offensive.

Really? Well, that's odd, because you obviously docked my skill based on who I am, and not on my actions.

[martin]

Sometimes you sound rather paranoid.

Could this topic please be closed, I am tired of it.

Martin

[Dónal Mason]

Konstantin, drop this. You're going off topic, and frankly we've heard all of this before. All you're doing is whining.

[Estralis Seborian]

Since the attempt to get back on topic failed...

-Topic closed-

Initial message reached "us".