Concerning Newbies and Gameplay Tips

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Moirear Sian
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Concerning Newbies and Gameplay Tips

Post by Moirear Sian »

I think we finally need to agree on something, fellow players (and maybe GMs, Devs?).

If a Newbie asks for help on the Newbie section concerning the gameplay, just answer it, damnit.

"Find out in game" is a stupid answer: Obviously the player posting a question on the forum means they couldn't figure it out in game, or don't understand the controls yet (not every game has a system of "shift-click + shift-click" to use items, duh!). Furthermore, the Newbies section is generally OOC, you could also just give hints to the Newbies as to who they could turn to in game, rather than sending them on wild goose chases. To me, as someone who had to go pulling most basic information out of people's noses, I'm growing pretty sick and tired of new players being treated to this bullcrap which only gets in the way of their roleplaying.

So, rather than just feeding people off with a "find out in game",
use your heads and fill the forum space with something useful for the Newbies.

Remember, you too, were once new to Illarion.
Remember, Illarion is a roleplaying game, not an old Lucasarts 2D-adventure.

Thank you for your attention.
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Arien Edhel
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Re: Concerning Newbies and Gameplay Tips

Post by Arien Edhel »

First calm down. :wink:
We often give hints to our players but would you really like to know everything before you get in? No riddle to solve ingame? That would be boring, wouldn't it?
Facts like press F1 to F5 or the *shift-click-thingy* are named in lots of posts. But there are even lots of questions that are nicer to be answered ingame. Btw this does advance the talking with each other and the roleplay.
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Japheth
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Post by Japheth »

I'll always answer a newbies question if I know the answer. I think we're quite nice at doing it (we as in GMs), but there are a lot of older players that think that because they had to learn it the difficult way, so too do the newer people.

In future, I think the more simple questions of newbies should always be answered by everyone (GMs, players, Devs). My logic in this is:

If a newbie knows how to work something or do something in-game, then they can spend more time on roleplaying, which is what we all want, right?

There might be an exception to the rule if a player ask: "How do I make *insert best sword name here*?" You can tell them the general rules of making swords, but don't tell them the precise ingredients for super slayasword92. :P
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Q: I have a hammer, but when I use it, I get an empty menu.
A: Place your char infront of a anvil

Q: I dunno how smithing works. I have ore and coal.
A: You have to cast ingots first. You can buy the required equipment from Graubart or another character.

---

Q: Who is the king of Silverbrand?
A: Ask a dwarf! (=Find out ingame)

Q: Where the heck is Greenbriar?
A: Ask a halfling! (=Find out ingame)

In principle, I agree, be nice to newbies. Give them at least a hint. A proverb: "Give me one fish and I will not starve for a day. Give me seven fishes and I will not starve for a week. Teach me how to fish and I will not starve for my entire life"
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

I am calmer than ever. ;)
Japheth wrote:In future, I think the more simple questions of newbies should always be answered by everyone (GMs, players, Devs). My logic in this is:

If a newbie knows how to work something or do something in-game, then they can spend more time on roleplaying, which is what we all want, right?

There might be an exception to the rule if a player ask: "How do I make *insert best sword name here*?" You can tell them the general rules of making swords, but don't tell them the precise ingredients for super slayasword92.
My thoughts exactly.
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The Returner
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Post by The Returner »

I think that newbies are getting worse at using forums to GET these answers.

I wish a GM or Admin would make the "Search" link HUGE and PURPLE with YELLOW polkadots.
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Dravish
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Post by Dravish »

The search function will be no use. How will a new player know if the thread he finds regards the new or old server...
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Post by Quinasa »

I think green and yellow would stand out better against the background, Returner.

I can see both points of view here, but let me explain why I say to find out in game...

Sure, I was once new to Illarion. When I first started playing I didn't even know the forum existed. Not for at least 2 months. So I don't wanna hear anyone complain that everyone who is new comes on and asks stupid questions. There are certain things that could be found out on the forums. I'm willing to bet that 99% of those things are ALREADY on the forums. Yay for people who know how to use the search function. The controls of the game and movement and how to use things and what things are... a lot of that is explained in the manual and the Illarion.org website.

I'm NOT saying that everyone has to find out the hard way, but often times its easier to find out in game because the controls are right there and you don't have to log in and then log out to check things. Someone is RIGHT NEXT TO YOU telling you how to do something. I'm never cruel to someone who needs to know how to do something. If someone walks up to one of my chars and says "Excuse me ma'am, I was wondering if you could tell me what """" is" or "Do you know how to """?" and I've YET to see someone outright tell someone to go check the forums. Learning how to do things IN GAME and asking IN GAME in character helps your char to meet other people in the game and establish a social connection.

@Sian - You're right. It's not a Lucasarts 2D adventure. Lucasarts games are mostly single player read the manual and die 30 times before you learn how to move games. Illarion IS a roleplaying game. There are people around to help you out through trial and error so that you don't HAVE to die 30 times. I hate being redundant but: If I know how to chop trees IRL that doesn't mean Quin knows how to do it. Just because I know how to read doesn't mean Maj knows how to read. Just because I know PO Kaja and PO Aristeaus are the same person doesn't mean I have to treat them that way in game. Mixing of OOC and IC in frowned upon and it's better for you to go in game and have your "character" learn how to do something that way than to just go on the forums and then go in game and *snap* know like that.
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Adano Eles
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Post by Adano Eles »

I guess once the manual is updated to the new game mechanics then we can point everyone there who asks. :wink:
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Quinasa wrote:If I know how to chop trees IRL that doesn't mean Quin knows how to do it.
Correct, but if you the player don't know how to do something simple and existential, but your character would, what exactly would you do? On the same note, imho, chopping wood is a void point to me because I deem it existential; chopping wood means taking something sharp and cutting at something wooden. If you're talking about special techniques of crafting Ultra-Elven-Bow-X that's obviously something essential to be learned in game.

What I'm saying is that alot of people tend to forget that Illarion is unique in many ways, some of these things being for the better or worse of roleplaying.

The more I think of it though, the more I come to disagree with this:
Arien Edhel wrote:We often give hints to our players but would you really like to know everything before you get in? No riddle to solve ingame? That would be boring, wouldn't it?
Is it a riddle game or a roleplaying game?
Why would it be boring if people would know how to do things OOC but would still have to learn IC?

You are hopefully aware that CTRL-clicking something is by far the easiest thing to do in this game, aren't you?
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Post by Quinasa »

Moirear Sian wrote:You are hopefully aware that CTRL-clicking something is by far the easiest thing to do in this game, aren't you?
You just gave away the secret! Now you have to be flogged! ;]
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

I give away many secrets. In PMs, mostly. One of those that I give away contains the one secret that should go along with being told to find out in-game — the one "secret" that has hardly been adressed in this topic so far. The one that I'd think should go without saying, but needs to be said anyway just to make it clear.

After being so evasive, it would make my heart make leaps to read someone else write it.
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Pendar
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Post by Pendar »

Is that the secret that once you are actually part of the community all such information is passed around OOC. Is that the one were by finding out in game often means
#w ((shift click hammer, shift click item )) ???

There is a fine line and I really think all players should be aware of the game mechanics. That is for example holding an axe and shift clicking a tree will get you loggs.
Carpentary will require variouse tools and specific woods you willl need to find a carpentar and ask him how it works exactly.
Smithing uses iron ore and variouse tools to cast ingots, once you have a steel ingot clicking your hammer "held in your hand" faceing an anvil will open a smithing menu.
All of these are fair answers but there is an unfortunate trate in Illarion at time were people feel a need to conserve there keyboards.

Find out in game!!!!! of course spares your keyboard a lot of ware and tare.

Basically we all need to be aware there is nothing worse than trying to figure out how to tailor when you have found thread,needle,cured leather and simply dont know you need to hold scissors in your hand.
There is no fun in being stuck on a monkey puzzle, it really is not going to harm your RP if X knows how to tailor. In closeing we can all do our bit to help new players in game many new players questions could be avoided if we took a moment to interact with them or saw them struggeling and just #w(()). New players are the games future, be kind to newbs :D
I dont know if there is more to say
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Thank you.
Pendar wrote:Is that the secret that once you are actually part of the community all such information is passed around OOC. Is that the one were by finding out in game often means
#w ((shift click hammer, shift click item )) ???
That would be 50% of the secret I meant.

The other 50% are:
The concept of having younger/newer characters become apprentices of older ones.

Which oftenly comes into conflict with character concept.

Illarion promotes other things than slashing people and critters up with sharp objects. But this "find out in-game"-mentality, defeats the entire purpose, because sadly, CTRL-clicking something is much easier to find out without going ((ooc)). If someone is trying to play a tailor, their character will know the most basic concepts of their trade. (Which in Illarion, would mean: having scissors in your left hand when tailoring. *cough*) So please refrain from making newbies look like idiots when they are probably just trying to find out how you, who correspond with them, would like this game to be played.

There are simply things that any caveman or monkey could easily perform in reality, but to which some people are told off to "find out in-game".

Shouldn't happen, imho.
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Arien Edhel
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Post by Arien Edhel »

So I'm asking the newbies:

Would you like to know everything before getting ingame or would you prefer to solve some probs by roleplaying?
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

I still consider myself a big newbie, so the answer for myself is:

Yes, I would like to know *some* things before getting in game.
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Arien Edhel
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Post by Arien Edhel »

Arien Edhel wrote:Would you like to know everything before getting ingame ?


That was my question. Some hints are given always.
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Well, in reply to your question, being the Illarion super-newb and hardcore roleplayer that I am, my answer would be: Yes. Even if I then happen to know a giant system of which I only need to know 1/20th of it to play a certain role properly, I have all the more reason to focus on that role alone when I apply that knowledge (in relevance to OOC/IC seperation). Then especially, do I know where exactly I stand in this abstract thing called "system". And with that knowledge, I can perfectly play out the roles X, Y, and most importantly, Z.

Or of course, I can just participate in some guessing absurdities.
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Post by Pendar »

This is a balance as i said earlier,
There is a fine line and I really think all players should be aware of the game mechanics. That is for example holding an axe and shift clicking a tree will get you loggs.
having look at the up and comeing hand book I think this discussion should wait until it is launched as in my eyes it adresses 90% of the information a player should be equipped with.
No there should be an A-Z how to get magic, an A-z how to create a character.
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=14602
post's like this go the job wonderfully, arming us with enough information to procede and not removeing the fun of discovery.
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

As opposed to "bashing through the shell of a giant easter egg with tiny hint-hammerpicks", I'd personally prefer a worthy, massive hammer, a giant farm which I don't need to explore fully, and some easter eggs hidden to discover.

Mind you, this is only me speaking, but it was my impression that that is how a measly 95% of all other RPGs have always been working.
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Pendar
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Post by Pendar »

What more would you like to see?
The handbook seems pretty comprehensive, the post detailing stats well you dont need to be enstein to work out which ones are most important. For me it seems most of the guess work is gone.
I think a big part of illarions charm has been learning things like what armor is best, how magic works etc.
I think we as players need to take more responsibility for mentoring new players through a guild system and more comunial attitude in game. Not seek a fast fix in more text.
But that is just me
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Pendar Fayed wrote:I think a big part of illarions charm has been learning things like what armor is best, how magic works etc.
Maybe I'm the only person who thinks backwards, but when I know which armor is the best, I purposely use different ones, because then I know them all, and I know which type would fit best to the character. Just for example.
Pendar Fayed wrote:What more would you like to see?
While I'm still riding on the backwards-wave, the question would be:
What would you like to see less of? ;)
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Post by Turonga Mudwater »

You and me both Moirear. I do it more for roleplay though because Turonga doesn't like helmets and plate armor and such. I actually was pretty mad when Axes became the best weapon because it made me seem like just another person who chose the best weapon. But I think the system is somewhat better than the last making Leather armor faster than plate yet weaker. Atleast I hope.
Last edited by Turonga Mudwater on Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Pendar »

Moirear Sian wrote
Maybe I'm the only person who thinks backwards, but when I know which armor is the best, I purposely use different ones, because then I know them all, and I know which type would fit best to the character. Just for example.
Your are then one of the few players who choose's to engage in PVP and not be competative when doing it. That is a simple fact and we can toss the pros and cons of this around all evening. Fact remains though most people PVP with winning in mind.
If there was a best armor it would be worn by most.Many ways to adress this issue how ever that is a seperate proposal.

sian wrote
While I'm still riding on the backwards-wave, the question would be:
What would you like to see less of?
I would like to see less focus placed on skills in a game that is supposed to not be skill orientated. How ever we share this game with many people and skills and skilling up are awfully popular, we adapt and enjoy the ride.
I would like to see less attitude in general on our message boards as has been stated before the boards are the worst advert for our game ever.
I would like to see less hatered and more tolerance between people from different cultures on a global scale..
I would also appreciate seeing less illteracy in third world countrys...
I have never taken really well to questions answered with questions though so you propably asked the wrong man.
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Pendar wrote:Your are then one of the few players who choose's to engage in PVP and not be competative when doing it. That is a simple fact and we can toss the pros and cons of this around all evening. Fact remains though most people PVP with winning in mind.
If there was a best armor it would be worn by most.Many ways to adress this issue how ever that is a seperate proposal.
I really have nothing to say to this. Everybody tells me I'm nuts.
Guess I really am.
Pendar wrote:less attitude
Sorry, wrong man to ask for that. ;)
Pendar wrote:questions answered with questions
What I meant to say was: I am not expecting more from the game (*I* know there are manuals coming), I'm expecting less of... other things. And in followup to that, I was wondering what things other people would like to see less of. Saying what I myself would like to see less of would be redundant, because I've already stated it on this topic.
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Post by Konstantin K »

there should be no best armor. every armor should protect from different things.
And winning is the entire point of going PvP in the first place.

You play a role of a character who engages in violence. The only natural instinct for that character, when he is in battle - is the instinct of a fighter who goes into violence is to win. To survive the fight. To beat the opponent.

A person who is fighting is obviously fighting to win, unless it's a form of suicide. Why else would you fight, but to win the fight you're fighting?
You do your best and try everything you can to come out with victory.

And if there is armor that is overall better than every other, and you can afford it - why would you not own it?

Why would you pick something that makes you too slow or too heavy or too vulnerable, if you can have the most optimal armor to use?

Fitting the character? Well, if your fighter character is rich, unless he is a devoted ascete, he will choose the top end items to operate with.
Duh.

There should be no ideal armor.
And I know the solution, but I won't tell. Up to the staff to figure it out.
Last edited by Konstantin K on Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pendar
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Post by Pendar »

Few points,
By attitude i was not asking for passive we love illarion, game is wonderful type things. How ever we have people who detract more than they add be it in the newbie forum or forum in general. You place a lot of heart into this game, both in critique and effort...
Dont you wrong man me :P...
Armor it is not a question of routeing out the evil or some being nuts some not. It is a simple fact if we had the stats before us for every item a lot of people would get out a calculator. I see many varied armor graphics in game, pick one that seems it would fit, Rp one custom made..etc.

Less off,
I believe we are seeing less off, I believe the upcomeing manuals are truly informative and give away many so called "IG" secrets.
We now have all the information required to deduce what statistics affect what skills. I have also had my rant on the lack of information offered from the top in the past. I am now slowly seeing my biggest gripe changeing and I am pleased...
I am seeing less secrecy,
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Pendar wrote:Armor it is not a question of routeing out the evil or some being nuts some not. It is a simple fact if we had the stats before us for every item a lot of people would get out a calculator. I see many varied armor graphics in game, pick one that seems it would fit, Rp one custom made..etc.
Say you have Sword A and Sword B. Sword B is obviously more powerful than Sword A. But Character X uses Sword A because it fits better to Character X, in spite of disadvantages.

Using Sword B in that case is crap-rp because it's mixing ooc and ic knowledge. Just because you the player know that Sword B is more powerful than Sword A, it doesn't mean your character would use Sword B because it guarantees better survival chances than Sword B. You would choose Sword A because that's what your character would choose.

Idealism aside...

It's not like this has been tried before in Illarion (lifting one large curtain and leaving a few small ones, rather than leaving a large one, and lifting a few small ones), that's why I'm writing about it. So what, if people went behind things with a calculator? At least two, obviously, wouldn't do that, because they favor stylish rp over crap-rp.

Just my two cents.
Pendar wrote:I am seeing less secrecy,
I do hope it continues down the path of this trend, and does not fall back into patterns that proved to have done it less good.
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Post by Llama »

Returning to the topic... i beleive that we should help newbies get the mechanics [no matter how much they make us want to murder them]...

I wouldn't disclose on forum items like --> "best" armour, which creature is which, How to get a *****; things that people at the time could answer.... find out ingame...

However i oppose to what had happened to me.. i had asked where i was in the forum... and nobody helped me... fidning out ingame was no option.. it was deserted... AND it was a new char
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Post by Konstantin K »

a pirate is more fitting to use a scimitar, than a katana sword, but there must be real technical advantages to it.
If all pirates found out that there are katana swords which are more balanced than scimitars - I doubt they would go back to their own blades.

That is why I'm saying that weapons should not be better than one another, they should be different. Decay speed and accessibility is one step towards that. Cheaper swords are faster to come by.
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