Orcs bloody well go flowery.

[Moirear Sian]

Word, Dyluck.

a) Last time I checked, alot of "styles" of roleplaying were totally overrated
b) Last time I checked, the individual "styles" of roleplaying were as numerous as sand at the beach
c) Last time I checked, an mmorpg was not played alone
d) Last time I checked, the meat was still pretty rare...

/Edit: Wait... I had a more obvious point to this post. Uh, yeah. I find it horribly excruciating in Illarion how many people whine, day in day out, about other people's roleplaying because it doesn't fit their individual concept of the setting or some other odd thing. Look at it this way, if you would not be able to "measure" the roleplaying somehow, it would all be equally good or bad and you wouldn't notice. Be happy it's where it is and if you want exceptionally "good" roleplaying from somebody else, try to be a standing example for them. Done./

[Talaena Landessi]

i swear...sian always sums everything up easily he always makes me feel stupid

[Dyluck]

Since I'm not quite sure whether your post was in agreement or disagreement with mine, I'll just clarify myself a little that personally I commented not on any style of roleplay, but rather the over-tendency towards evaluating the quality of character concepts by only their individual merits rather than its contribution to the sum of presently existing concepts.

My opinon on differing or conflicting roleplaying styles and how to deal with them? Well as my golden phrase goes, another story for another day.

[Moirear Sian]

but rather the over-tendency towards evaluating the quality of character concepts by only their individual merits rather than its contribution to the sum of presently existing concepts.

I didn't only agree, I see it so far as to the point where I can firmly stand behind replacing the spots underlined above with "roleplaying style."

[Konstantin K]

All I can say is this: Orcs probably strayed away from the brutal path of violence, because they are probably afraid of being banned for powergaming, killing, and inapropriate behavior.

Hahahaha.

The only choice is to go flowery and tamed.

Kinda hard to become a violent orc, when your skills aren't allowed to go high (er than others').

[Cliu Beothach]

Kinda hard to become a violent orc, when your skills aren't allowed to go high (er than others').

Violent orcs don't always have to win.

[Gabon Corad]

but they do sometimes to be violent orcs

[Cliu Beothach]

Yes, but they dont have to be skilled to be violent.

[Gabon Corad]

*is very confussed*

[Hermie]

You dont need skills to act violent (ie to punch someone), you only need skills (and tactics) to win.

Thats' (probably) what he means.

[Karri]

If you want violent orcs, play one. Simple. I would, but I just started playing, and I don't want to start off playing an evil orc as my second character not a week into playing Illarion. Or I would. So take it into your own hands. Create a way to make the 'flower happy orcs' become 'brutally violent orcs'.

Or try. Couldn't say it would work for certian, but it would certianly be worth a try, wouldn't it?

[Gro'bul]

Orcs are NOT inherently bloodthirsty, therefore, there needs to be some kind of event to influence this sort of behavior like an insult to one's honor or evil magic. Just making a murderer is stupid and has no point, but if accual events like some people murdered your wife and child this would push your char off the deep end and possibly make him insane. I think this sort of thing is what made Darlok evil and uncaring.

[Erart Ridoc]

It would be awesome if Darlok actually posted the background story for Darlok turning into the evil dictator, if there is one show me the url

[Moirear Sian]

It would be awesome if Darlok actually posted the background story for Darlok turning into the evil dictator, if there is one show me the url

A grand mystery which newer players like you and me will perhaps never know for sure...

Aside from the point of discussion here that Gro'bul brought in, concerning that a credibly played villain is created in reaction to circumstances, it seems to me alot of people presumably do not give a hoot about someone's work invested in background stories that took place before the player began playing the character in the game.

Which returns me to the point where people should become more tolerant towards others' roleplaying, character concepts, or heck, just generally become more tolerant.

[Gro'bul]

Background is of the upmost unimportance to me. What has accually happend and happens is how I "make" my char's background. Sure where he came from, parents, basic things you need to define how your character would act/speak/manners ect. But you don't need to go in depth as to how many mm your toenails grew every day. I'm not sure how to say it uhm... Having an elaborate background, I feel, limits your character's developement into the real existing game. Now tossing out an average joe with a basic background out into the stream you don't know what bumps and turns he will take, completely circumstantial on who he meets and what happens to him and his decisions made. Example: Uber Palandin from Spudland encounters a necromancer, he turns him into a ghost. Average Joe from whatnot encounters a necromancer, based what he has done so far he might aid the necromancer, simply ignore him, join him, infinate possibilities simply because he does not have a pre-determined path.

[Moirear Sian]

I see your point, but there's the golden "but" around today.

What you're saying is that the less background put into a character before play, the better. You also superimpose that a character with a more elaborately pre-determined background has less different possibilities for action in certain situations.

That is incorrect, it is thoroughly a false statement.

In short, you are actually proving my point about tolerance, exactly, Gro'bul.

[Konstantin K]

What the hell are you guys talking about? This topic is about flowery orcs.

Stop this pretending, this fake discussion, trying to pull out problems and analysis out of your own finger. There is nothing less and nothing more to it: orcs go flowery not because of some character indetermination or inability to precisely define their character's history.

The are freaking peaceful because of ingame matters. Because they don't want to be gangbanged in PVP in this game. They don't want to lose fights, because then they are forced into roles of losers.

And it's better to be a flowery orc than an aggressive loser orc.

And without fighting skills being high, you will never win any conflicts.
This is the entire idea of skills being high. People who skill up - tend to go aggressive. This is why everyone fears powergamers in the first place. Because they are free to choose at any moment - to become aggressive.

Weak characters will never go aggressive in a game. It's absurd. They will get killed once, and that's it. They will lose motivation.

And that's all there is to it.
Illarion has become an anti-aggression game.

The only serious violence that exists - is that which is supervised by gamemasters.

[Bloodhearte]

I mostly agree with you there K, but disagree on one thing.

I'd rather be a losing baddy orc than a prissy, social orc. I think if you choose an orc, you should commit yourself to acting aggressively (instead of using this dumb 'u r an oomie, yub yub' bologna). Think of the orcs from Warcraft III...they got the right stuff. They're not plain retarded in vocabulary, but have the fortitude to lock n' load on other races they don't like.

Think of them as the dark side of humans, in nastier bundles.

[Moirear Sian]

What I'm talking about is this:

First:
Aggressive orc roleplaying, as so many other aggressive character archetypes, not tolerated by a broad mass. Some loser, using your term, decides that someone else's RP is not good enough and starts another pointless topic to complain about somebody's RP, although they could have solved it directly by having a chat with the player they seem to be bugged by. This all boils back down orcs gone flowery. What do you mean, what the hell am I talking about? I'm attacking the root of the problem, not the problem itself, because it's neither a problem, nor can it be solved, because it is recurring. You think a thread like this is a single case, or a result from current behaviour and the wipe? That's complete nonsense. I could dig out at least 4 threads with complaints addressing how to play which race, although in the end effect, only the GMs have the say, and they are rather tolerant in this respect.

Second:
While I agree on the point of yours that certain patterns of behaviour coursing throughout management and players of the game have a detrimental impact to the RP, where, e.g., "orcs go flowery", as so many say, the game is not about skills and winning PvP combats. In the contrary, read between my lines; read out that what I'm saying is that "good" characters should be played as good and not some half-baked fake of which the player goes to the forums later on and whines about roleplaying that didn't fit into their personal enjoyment, after they lost in PvP against the oh-so-evil ones!

[Gabon Corad]

as much as i hate to say it... i do agree with most of Konstantin's post...Gabon would have gone bad but Kaja was killed, so there goes his teacher in combat...and i really dont want to RP that Gabon just knows how to fight because hes a very young orc...so Stephen comes along and takes him in...flowery?...not really just because hes with humans doesnt mean his lost his brutality in battle, a Knights job is to defend the people and elimate the threats...eleminating the threats means killing or jailing...maby Gabon wont kill everything he sees, but neather did Grutok his fother before his (which i also RPed) Grutok was a bloodskull blinded by their greed and bloodshead...he fought for his "brothers" of the clan not for the reason that the chief told him...he was a murder in a way but to him thats what was right...well for Gabon the Knighthood is whats right in his head, so he follows it just like Grutok...it all depends and personally i think this topic is bull because its not only orcs not fighting...no human, elf, lizard, or halfling has tryed being evil since this new client...so what about them being flowery? i know for a fact that there are stronger human chars then many orcs maby one of them would like to try going crazy.

[Pendar]

Problem is currently,
Orc characters want it both ways some wish to be evil and still be apart of the main stream role play with in game or at least say an evil role cant be played due to acess being denied to main stream rp of the game.
For once we have a game were in a strange sembelence of reality means you cannot walk into town as a knowen criminal, or even a social reject.
The latter being an orc with abrasive attitude and poor communication skill.

Some orcs have chosen to go the route of conforming as per Gabon joining the knights. It is an interesting evolution in the game is all.
If a players wants to be a bad ass robber and pker they do need to stay out of town. They could prey on miners and wood cutters, they could pay some one to trade for them in town.
The idea you will get eerr gangbaned pvp is true, if you believe you can just walk into town or attack people right in front of it.

I am still not seeing the issue,
Brian

[Turonga Mudwater]

It is difficult playing a "tough orc" but its totally possible, and not even be Turonga's "greedy enough to ignore hatred for humans" I've found that the orc cave is quite fine, If Pendar (or some other gaurd) bans me for a day, so be it, the orc cave is a fine place to be, Ive found I can almost be independant from the town, especially now that the grey rose building doesn't block off travel, all you need is to get the skill to kill mummies, then build an excess of swordss an such, and then train more until your good enough to be a challenge to the gaurd, at which point you CAN enter town for atleast a minimul amount of time.

All it needs is an NPC who BUYS things and you can be independant from the town. I'm actually kind of sad at how few people are in Vashikar and the orc cave, I basically live up there and I never see anyone up there. It was totally understandable before the wipe, but now with so many NPC's around its not that difficult.

[Gro'bul]

I see your point, but there's the golden "but" around today.

What you're saying is that the less background put into a character before play, the better. You also superimpose that a character with a more elaborately pre-determined background has less different possibilities for action in certain situations.

That is incorrect, it is thoroughly a false statement.

In short, you are actually proving my point about tolerance, exactly, Gro'bul.

No, I am not saying that, in fact this is just my preference. You can be elaborate as you want, I couldn't care less. Like I said I wasn't sure how to say it, elaborate is the wrong word. I think linear better describes what I meant. You can measure your toenail length, its not what I meant. It is statistically correct, more variables = more possibilities however you want to put it. A person with a pre-determined quest already has many of these defined, therefore not as many as one who doesn't, even if it is by 1.

All it needs is an NPC who BUYS things and you can be independant from the town.

I don't think I can give anymore hint than that, just gotta look.

[Moirear Sian]

No, I am not saying that, in fact this is just my preference. You can be elaborate as you want, I couldn't care less. Like I said I wasn't sure how to say it, elaborate is the wrong word. I think linear better describes what I meant. You can measure your toenail length, its not what I meant. It is statistically correct, more variables = more possibilities however you want to put it. A person with a pre-determined quest already has many of these defined, therefore not as many as one who doesn't, even if it is by 1.

Sorry, but I don't mean to step on your toenails with this Gro', but the statement is still thoroughly false.

• Personal Past != Personal Quest
It is not a necessity that a character's past dictates a character's personal quest. In the contrary, a past can be a stepping stone to become something completely different. So regardless of whether your preference is people thinking up detailed backgrounds, detailing the backgrounds so far as in measuring their toenail lengths, or just not giving a bloody God damn about their character's background, the point is moot to say that Darlok was the best-played villain if you cannot explain what was so great about the character. Because most likely, you don't even know all the other villains or their backgrounds (which you don't care about anyway) in order to compare fairly.

Again you prove to me that intolerance is an essential key to ill communication and misunderstandings of what is good RP and what is not. Say it so, if you like, that the perception thereof lies in the eye of the beholder, still I will disagree. The only thing I can base my perception of someone's "good" RP off of, is by seeing their RP going with the flow of events in game and their flexibility to adapt within the game. Literacy, typing speed, extensive in-depth knowledge of the game's setting, I regard all those things as secondary to flexibility.

Judging people's RP after what, a few hours or days of playing with them allows you to make assumptions about the player's full spectrum of RPing capabilities or potential?

Which brings me back to the point of the "flowery orcs". Excuse me if I ask this bluntly, to whomever it concerns (e.g., the person who lanced this thread), but upon what size of a timeframe did you call your judgment of all orcs having gone flowery? How much time did you invest to speak with the players behind those characters and find out what reasons might be lurking behind it?

I've guessed so much, regardless of the answer.

I am still not seeing the issue,

Exactly my thoughts.

[Gro'bul]

False? Its just my opinion. I say your wrong, proove it. You can't proove an opinion. I am not judging anyone, saying whats right or wrong, or how things should or shouldn't be. In my opinion, I feel (as stated in the first post) that a pre-determined role limits your options. I don't see whats false about it, proove why it is, maybe I will see the light instead of some sentences of you mocking me and being pompous. And, maybe someone else will too.

[The-Puppeteer]

I'm actually kind of sad at how few people are in Vashikar and the orc cave, I basically live up there and I never see anyone up there

I haven't really worked out where all the resources are, but I don't think there is any food close by... Or I would stay there all the time
Untill I wanted food...

[Moirear Sian]

@Gro'bul: I'm not mocking you Gro', and what I'm saying is slightly off-topic. Your opinion is your opinion, and in mathematical logic, what you're saying may make sense, but I'll just give you a single example, the one of my character Sian, who was once a thief in his past (the past before the game initiated). Now, the character is always standing in a personal conflict or dilemma—should he go back to the "dark side" of the law, or should he work towards being undeservedly dubbed a hero? All choices are open for him, my friend; for he works in both directions, depending on whims. Would you, as such, compare him to villains? Probably not, because you're unlikely to even notice what strings he is always pulling from the shadows.
Starting from debating with himself whether he should aid or battle a necromancer (Trystan a name for you?), all the way to inner turmoil whether to commit acts of heroism or humility, these are actually occurences in the game. As he became a Ronagan novice after some six months of my playing time (who claims to be a Tanora novice), he decided against aiding the necromancer because he did not want to betray his friendship with certain other characters, which was put into question by the moral dilemmas Trystan presented him with.
Is Sian a dark character? I'll leave it up to you to decide, but at any rate, me having predetermined his past (which I haven't even mentioned here in any detail) does not change the character having 100% freedom of choice. Of course, some shmo wanting to play a character who plans to be a paladin all his life might be something else, I see your point, Gro', but even for the strict and noble paladin, the character virtually has all choices open. The choices are actually more watered down by social interaction within the game, not necessarily by the character's past.

Why I said what you're saying is thoroughly false is because your statement (and opinion) more or less hinged on those two words 'past' and 'quest', in fact you melded them together as one—that part is what made me write it is thoroughly false, because one is not the other, and they can easily stand apart.

As some certain saying goes, "your ticket to the future is always clean."

--

Returning on-topic, this is why I think it's pretty silly to complain about 'flowery orcs' or generally, someone else's RP, especially when the people in question are not spoken to personally and in private, and some Joe opens a new thread in these forums, that sometimes has undesired side-effects, like people wanting to quit playing, discontinuing characters, etc., etc. There is a large margin of grey space of which the players do not know about eachother's characters, either, as such it's completely moot to discuss whether someone's RP is good or not, besides the fact that alot of people seem to be challenged in openly sharing their character's backgrounds and intentions OOC (which is also an indicator to me that people a) have trouble seperating IC and OOC, b) people should communicate more OOC to ensure gameplay running smoothly).

Oh, and for those who haven't noticed yet, yes, Moonsilver (and some of the background history of Illarion's) puts 'bloodthirsty orcs' as a minority in comparison to the majority of orcs. As such, it's completely stupid for me to read that orcs have gone flowery; as for bloodthirsty orcs, how many have you seen lately? The last I saw dubbed themselves a guild called Deathscar, and Kaja was a prime example (and I miss them all already), but other than that, I'd dare say the game has been running more and more true to the actual setting than ever.

You know, Dyluck is one of those people who I somehow have grafted into my memory as someone who has always been complaining about the lack of the in-game world functioning as a community, complete with relations and adversities. And there we have it; complaints off the game and in the forums about someone else's RP is completely neglecting, or to a certain level, ruining this aspect. Why can't people just react to things as in-game developments? Why must IC material always be stressed and complained about OOC in the forums? So what if orcs turned flowery, maybe it's all the better for the RP. Maybe "true" villains can finally shine, the less bloodthirsty psychos that are running around on the loose, you know.

On a final note, it's not too funny to see how anybody who's ever played a "villain" (let's take the term very loosely) in this game never complains openly about the "good guys" RP until these kind of threads appear, where someone else came to whine because something in game was not working the way they desire, or because something does not fit their personal mental image of the game.

You want bloodthirsty orcs in the game world? Play one.

But then we get to the point which Konstantin addressed, in which a good deal of players and the management behind the game restricts their development somewhat. But that is a story for another day, isn't it.

[Konstantin K]

"your ticket to the future is always clean."

lol, that was the best sentence in there.