Anti-PG methods

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Bloodhearte
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Post by Bloodhearte »

John Irenicus wrote: Their own fault, maybe? It is truely possible to play a good skilled character AND rp with other players. Or do you go ig only to work and log out if your amount of learning points is over? How about waiting when sitting next to a campfire, talking about anything in the ig situation, and work on after 2-3 hours of nice and joyfull roleplay? Illarion is NOT a skill and working-based game, so people who behave like you said should consider playing other games.


From my witnessing, K has both awesome skills and awesome roleplay ability. The ends always justify the means in his situations.
Also possible, you just have to play for more than 3 days to be able to kill the whole npc monsters on the island. Play half a year, allow your char to gain his abilities in a realistic time and start to plot the big wars and such.
Three days? I don't think he did it that quickly. If you want to use realism, here's my counterargument... :wink:

Illarion time is several times faster than real life days, 4 I hear. And in real life, it doesn't take any more than one year to become an above average fighter if you practice and fight efficiently (military combat training in real life is only done for a few months in some branches, because they train so intensely).

There. 91.25 RL days would make up a year in RL...it is a reasonable time frame to be a damn good fighter.

In any case, I don't care how fast somebody gains skill...the quicker somebody gets the skill they want, the quicker they can play their desired role.
Maybe because you found the tinies loophole in that system and used it?Just because any technical system allows it, does that mean your character is able to face whatever he has done? Are you playing this game always with a manual in the left hand, checking what action you are allowed to do and which not?
How about using your brain, roleplay experience and think? All this discussion wouldn't be needed if all players would do it, anyway.
He didn't take advantage of loopholes, he found an efficient method of training and used it. He had no more advantages over the average player, anybody could've done what he did.

Why anybody would want to intentionally gain skills inefficiently is beyond me.

I think skilling up is only wrong if it puts the role playing atmosphere in danger or prevents another player's fun. No other reason to limit other people.
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Konstantin K
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Post by Konstantin K »

John Irenicus wrote: and work on after 2-3 hours of nice and joyfull roleplay?
Define "nice joyful roleplay"? Sitting and talking, for a rogue - is BAD roleplay. Mercenaries and rogues - spend their time training alone under cover of night.

I define good roleplay as this:

1. Listening to others instead of ignoring people's presence, and throwing tons of pre-written poetic monologues at them. (On the contrary to popular belief, your character's history may seem genius to you, but be total crap to others' eyes).

2. Respecting another character's strengths and weaknesses, and giving your own character - weaknesses.

3. Reacting to other peoples' actions. Sometimes it's a better RP to just shrug, say "Hmpf, if you say so." and leave the building, if someone acts skeptical towards you, instead of continuing the monologue about slaying some mighty dragon in some faraway land.

Most people here are under assumption that because I "powergamed" and used various client techniques, I was a bad roleplayer.

Cliu, for instance. You think I never roleplayed with you. You're wrong. I roleplayed with you. It's just that my character never actually CARED about you.

One time, for example, you were hurt, or perhaps nauseous, leaning against a rock, Sian hurried to you, I didn't. That does not mean I refused to play along with your RP. I noted your character's condition very well, I just did not respond. Who said I had to rush to you and ask what's wrong? I played a careless cruel person, who didn't care of a cleric dying on his eyes.

Because I portrayed an emotionally senseless character, you guys assumed I can't RP.

Hiding in shadows is a whole different story. It started when people kept spotting me from miles away and tracking me by ID number.

I roleplayed dangerous people. I made Illarion a dangerous place. I am still here, because the system is not perfect, because I bring some imbalance, and because if I leave, you will be left to your campfires and cybersex, and pre-written quests, where GMs give out special items to carefully selected players, while the average joe can never get his hands upon an artifact, because he is not "trusted" enough.

I am the element of chaos, the unpredictable cell. And until Martin and the Dev. Team perfects the client so that the game is ready to be called a commercial product (not just a graphical chat) - I will stick around.

Unless of course you ban my IP, in which case I will not return.
--------

@Adano:

Sometimes balance is good, but...
Balance is boring. Let there be unbalanced situations in economy and fighting. Let sharp weapons be better than concussion weapons. Let newbies catch up with veterans. And forget PowerGaming. Let it go.
Recruit strong fighters to protect the towns from Strong Killers. Don't call GMs on them.
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Post by Keikan Hiru »

Commercial Product !?
You are playing Illarion, not World of Warcraft.
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Cliu Beothach
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Post by Cliu Beothach »

You think I never roleplayed with you. You're wrong. I roleplayed with you. It's just that my character never actually CARED about you.
I never said you DIDN'T Roleplay with me, I just didn't like it. I think that you persona play.
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Post by Terook Telcove »

I have rped with one of K's character, perhaps more because I dont know.

When nobody else is around and he is playing a teacher *coughs* he is a good rper. And when you get him pissed off he gets even better at rping to :), we had plenty of fights that were good rp, even though I was a poor rper myself
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Misjbar
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Post by Misjbar »

To most people that posted above here, please, for the forum's sake, stick to the subject. Though I must say it is an..interesting fact that immediately Konstantin comes up when we are talking about PG, it is not the point here. So could people please discuss the proposal, instead of Konstantin? :)
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

K's RP is not up for debate here, there was already a thread locked where people had the need to do such although it was uncalled for. Please stay on topic or I'll just request myself that the topic is locked. You fellows can gladly start an individual thread to dissect, analyze, and discuss his RP, but on this thread, I don't give a damn about it and I don't want to read it. I'll repeat it one more time, stay on topic.

Thank you for your attention.
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Gro'bul
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Post by Gro'bul »

A hard skill cap seems unfair to people who have given intelligence to their character. How much you can learn per over time should be dynamic. Intelligence should be a small determining factor, and obviously the base amount should be the largest. Like 1 int point = 1/2% extra, so 20 int would only give you +10%. Casters generically have higher intelligence than most classes, but have many skills instead of one or two.
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Aegohl
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Post by Aegohl »

Several pages ago I said the same. However, I believe it was K and not those who question him that lead both those conversations down that path.

In any case, here is my opinion on the real topic:

The path to superiority in any field should be specialization. The problem isn't that there are those with higher skills--it's that those with higher skills aren't the result of better thinking, better planning, or smarter playing; they're the result of less thinking, more clicking, more time on their hands. There should be a strategy to being superior at something to other people.

That being said, the way to enforce specialization would be to have an overall cap rather than a cap on individual skills, as towards the short-term cap(that which is based on time). Perhaps even with higher level skills being capped faster on top of that. Afterall, eventually someone plateaus and can't get better so easily.

On top of this, there could be an overall cap on amount of skill points, like, well, Ultima Online, where as your skills get beyond a certain point other skills go down.

If done properly, this would allow jacks of all trades, powerful specialists, and everything inbetween while not allowing masters of all trades.

On the downside, it would unfairly limit fighters and mages, who can only specialize so much. However, it will increase the amount of fighters who are just fighters and the amount of mages who are just mages. The fighter/mage, warlock, battle wizard, tank mage, or whatever you'd like to call it will be most limited in this sense, but I think, for the sake of stereotype reinforcing (which is commonly a part of other fantasy games) this works fine. Someone who is good at both *should* be limited.

I think the above does better to kill the whole issue of powergaming while still allowing a range of skills all over the board. I'd rather have people thinking their way to the top than shift-clicking their way to the top.

Aegohl
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Aegohl wrote:Several pages ago I said the same. However, I believe it was K and not those who question him that lead both those conversations down that path.
Then go back and note that he had a full post on topic and only two very brief lines actually adressing his skill cut, and the entire page that followed it centered on him. To say it straight, this goes for you too Aegohl, and for K as well. Please do me a favor and go butt your heads somewhere else, you horny rams. If I waste my time reading one more line about it, or having to spend time writing another on it, I will request this thread to be locked. This is my last warning. Thank you in advance.

Now that that is settled, thank you for your input concerning a total skill cap as some might know from UO. I refrained from suggesting it myself as my #5 Method, because the community here is known to me as allergic whenever I even only mention the abbreviation. However, pardon the pun, but I think that Illarion could "gain" from such a method. That all being said, I agree to 100% with the part of your post that is on topic.
Gro'bul wrote:A hard skill cap seems unfair to people who have given intelligence to their character. How much you can learn per over time should be dynamic. Intelligence should be a small determining factor, and obviously the base amount should be the largest. Like 1 int point = 1/2% extra, so 20 int would only give you +10%. Casters generically have higher intelligence than most classes, but have many skills instead of one or two.
I like this proposal and agree with it.
Just food for thought, Willpower could have its play in these matters too (you need patience to learn something, not just intellect; and willpower would reflect patience). As I've noticed that lot of people still don't give a damn about assigning low mental attribute ratings and roleplaying them appropriately.
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Talaena Landessi
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Post by Talaena Landessi »

*is glad all her stats are balanced out nicely*
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Adano Eles
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Post by Adano Eles »

I don't understand your understanding of balance, Konstantin.
So do you like it when a grandmaster smith spills out a dozen platemails a day, completely ruining the worth of such an item. In reality a platemail was worth enough to buy a small village but in Illarion they were given away because you could make as many as you wish each day. In the result newbie smithes had to catch up in their skills because they could not spill out items at will at no cost, and as such had no chance to compete with master smithes. A completely imbalanced shitty economic system.

Sorry, I prefer the idea of every smith only being able to craft a single platemail a day. This way master smiths will think twice if they sell their good stuff for nothing while newbies have the same chance to sell theirs, just for lower prices reflecting the lower quality.

Newbies must have the ability to find their place in the system without extensive skill raising. Illarion is not just a game of skills and many people like to play it as such. And as such, people must also be able to find their place in the system without constantly training their skills.
This is not possible with a skill oriented system but a carefully balanced system offering many niches to fill in for chars of different experience levels.
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

That's a good point you've got there. That also somewhat reflects what I was referring to about the "too reminiscent of D&D where a level 3 fighter is condemned to lose against the level 16 fighter." That example of mine is exaggerated, but it should be realistically possible that two low-skilled fighters have the possibility to overpower a single higher-skilled one if they are clever about it. I've witnessed quite absurd scenes in the game before the wipe, now and then. And if I take a look at the double-axe and its effective role in the game, that is one of the most unbalancing elements in the fighting system. Everybody complains about the double-axe. But for some reason we can't agree on just all being cool and refraining from using it and using more stylish weapons instead? I suppose rebalancing it would be advised.

So bottom line, arguing that these proposals would not work based on how the client works now is somewhat moot, because these things are all subject to change. Furthermore, I would welcome additional "methods" to add into the initial post. I will be updating it sometime soon with some of the material that has transpired in followup to the initial post.
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Gro'bul
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Post by Gro'bul »

Weilders of things like double axe, war axe, war hammers, and staves should be limited to leather armor. This way you can balance out knights with berserkers, and because the knight does less damage but servives longer, with the berserker doing more damage but taking more damage per strike, they are balanced. This also prevents knights from getting their heavy armor, and heavy weaponry, thus preventing massive killing of harder monsters.
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Adano Eles
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Post by Adano Eles »

Wielders of two-handed weapons already have the disadvantage of not being able to hold a shield. Maybe if the ratio additional damage/ additional protection is balanced out better this would be enough.
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Post by Keikan Hiru »

Just two short comments from my side:

If you link intelligence to skillcap / skillgain the base of this calcualtion should be 9,5 int points.
Everything below this value is considered as having a disadvantage.
1 int is practicly brain dead (undead monster use 1 point).


Level 3 Fighter beating up Level 16 Fighter is already possible and happens everyday.
Mummies for example have attributes in the range of 1 to 3, so a player character that has not distributed his attribute points is equal to them (in case we do not compare equipment).

I think everybody of us has ran more then one time from two monsters attacking him.
Last edited by Keikan Hiru on Thu May 12, 2005 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Konstantin K
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Post by Konstantin K »

I'm sorry but it does not make sense. Why does it have to be balanced? That's why people invented shields in the first place. To have an advantage.
A person with a light sword and a shield should be at advantage against a person wielding a huge two handed sword and choosing to have no protection.
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Adano Eles
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Post by Adano Eles »

Why would anyone choose to carry around a huge sword? Because he can split damn everything into halves with it!
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Konstantin K
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Post by Konstantin K »

If he has strength and agility to handle it and fened with it correctly, and constitution enough to compensate for it, and armor to protect shoulders from attacks.

While a lesser armored and swifter person will use a shield to block the attacks of the two handed sword and use a smaller sword to deal precise attacks.

If the two people are equal, and are both clad in light leather, there is no reason for one of them to choose a bihander. it's a losing weapon in this case. Person with a lighter sword and a shield would own it no problem.



Another nonsense I cannot understand is why Illarion tried to equal concussion weapons to slashing weapons? Why does it have to compensate for sharpness in some way?

This is why early humans invented sharp objects, because it deals more damage. A war hammer of a heavy weight will surely smash somethnig up pretty good. But a sharp war axe with a blade of the SAME weight, but sharp as hell - will do even more damage, and a more deeper cut.

War axe is a weapon a whole class higher than war hammer.
A sword is better than a mace of the same weight. It must have a sharpness bonus.
Most maces are heavier than swords, that's what makes the thrust impact larger.

Current formulas are crap, if what I saw is correct.

A weapon in real life does not have things like attack, defense, accuracy. What the crap? Martin, you're a physicist, but the game is not using physics laws.

A weapon has 4 attributes: weight, size, material, and sharpness.
Use those to calculate damage done, based on strength, agility, and other stats of the character.

Calculate speed besed on strength, agility, and weight of weapon.
Calculate inertia (in English - momentum) based on weight and speed of the weapon.
Calculate damage potential based on momentum * material + sharpness.
Calculate damage done by the material versus material resistance of the enemy's armor, considering weight, size of armor or shield, and character's attributes.

Sharpness parameter must ass a bonus to weapon's damage.

The current fighting system is simply stupid. It's primitive. And unrealistic.
Try to put some deep thought into it. Design a realistic system.
Stuff like Attk., Def., Accuracy., Speed - preset in weapon, is just kindergarten.

When you buy a knife in a hunter store, it does not have a speed label, neither has it a label telling you how much damage the knife will do in right hand or in left hand. This must be coded into character, not into weapon. There are no attributes like attack or defense.
A knife, a sword, or a gun - doesnt have that.

A distance weapon may have accuracy. That is a matter of the weapon's allignment. A gun or a crossbow - may be misconfigured. Then they lsoe accuracy.

Distance weapons must be calculated TOTALLY differently.
Thats why they were made and brought into utilization. So that people dont have to use their physical qualities in melee.

Distance weapon damage must be calculated upon bolt/arrow speed * bolt/arrow's weight.
Speed must be calculated based on crossbow spring quality or bow spring quality.
Speed of bolt/Arrow - has nothing to do with character's agility. Because character is not throwing a bolt and is not running together with it.
Reload speed only must depend on character agility.

I have it all in my notebook. I wrote down the entire fighting system how it should be in Illarion, if it's ever going to become anything more than a school project. Just ask me, and I will hand my ideas to you.

And don't tell me it's too hard and impossible to code.
I'm graduating with a degree in programming. I know this: anything is possible.
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Post by Galdriel »

Konstantin,

please show me, how to deflect a strike with a heavy bihaender or a massive warhammer with a small shield.
in most cases the try will not only smash the shield but also the holding arm.
also a single real hit with a bihaender should be fatal to anybody not heavily armored.

There is also a reason, that in medieval times many knights preferred maces to swords or axes.

one reason is, that a mace is easier to handle and will do damage against chainmails like no cutting weapon could.
with an axe you have to hit with the edge and a sword i much mor prone to breaking.

so things are never as easy as you may think.
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Konstantin K
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Post by Konstantin K »

Take a mace, and reshape its tip to have a sharp long spike facing perpendicularly to the handle - swing it - you will make a bloody flipping hole in a chain armor. Sharp weapons of SAME WEIGHT will always do more damage.


If you and I were of the same weight category, and if I had a bihander, a light shield, and a short sword on me, IRL, I would gladly show you how to do this.

But then again, you may consider my agility to be that near maximum, my perception at maximum, my dexterity slightly above average person, and my strength a bit below average person.

If you're not wearing any armor, i can guarantee that I will cut you to death before you even make your first blow with a bihander, and your arm will not be functional.

I will first ram my shield into you, and place it against the flat side of your huge sword. Us, being of equal weight, I will then strike you through with my short sword.

It;s you who are trying to make things easier and more primitive.
I am aware of all complications.

Warriors preferred maces because they were heavier then swords. Swords were meant for quick piercing, and precise cuts to the wek points between the armors. A sharp enough sword of the same weight as a given mace - will pierce your chain armor with anough impact easily.

The reason most one handed swords do not cut through armor is that they are lighter, and not meant for bashing blows. They are made for piercing blows and skin cuts on the weak spots.

But a halberd or a war axe, with a sharpened tip, or even a sharp-spiked version of war hammer - will do more damage than a dull warhammer.


Take a person, lay him down. His him with a war hammer - it sure will leave a huge bruise, break a spine perhaps, maybe smash some bones into a bloody mush.

But take a sharp blade of same weight, on the same length handle, and strike that person. You will freaking cut him in two. That is guaranteed BETTER effect.

Cutting in two - gives no survival chance.
Breaking bones and internal bleeding - does.
Last edited by Konstantin K on Thu May 12, 2005 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Misjbar »

Konstantin K wrote:If he has strength and agility to handle it and fened with it correctly, and constitution enough to compensate for it, and armor to protect shoulders from attacks.

While a lesser armored and swifter person will use a shield to block the attacks of the two handed sword and use a smaller sword to deal precise attacks.

If the two people are equal, and are both clad in light leather, there is no reason for one of them to choose a bihander. it's a losing weapon in this case. Person with a lighter sword and a shield would own it no problem.



Another nonsense I cannot understand is why Illarion tried to equal concussion weapons to slashing weapons? Why does it have to compensate for sharpness in some way?

This is why early humans invented sharp objects, because it deals more damage. A war hammer of a heavy weight will surely smash somethnig up pretty good. But a sharp war axe with a blade of the SAME weight, but sharp as hell - will do even more damage, and a more deeper cut.

War axe is a weapon a whole class higher than war hammer.
A sword is better than a mace of the same weight. It must have a sharpness bonus.
Most maces are heavier than swords, that's what makes the thrust impact larger.

Current formulas are crap, if what I saw is correct.

A weapon in real life does not have things like attack, defense, accuracy. What the crap? Martin, you're a physicist, but the game is not using physics laws.

A weapon has 4 attributes: weight, size, material, and sharpness.
Use those to calculate damage done, based on strength, agility, and other stats of the character.

Calculate speed besed on strength, agility, and weight of weapon.
Calculate inertia (in English - momentum) based on weight and speed of the weapon.
Calculate damage potential based on momentum * material + sharpness.
Calculate damage done by the material versus material resistance of the enemy's armor, considering weight, size of armor or shield, and character's attributes.

Sharpness parameter must ass a bonus to weapon's damage.

The current fighting system is simply stupid. It's primitive. And unrealistic.
Try to put some deep thought into it. Design a realistic system.
Stuff like Attk., Def., Accuracy., Speed - preset in weapon, is just kindergarten.

When you buy a knife in a hunter store, it does not have a speed label, neither has it a label telling you how much damage the knife will do in right hand or in left hand. This must be coded into character, not into weapon. There are no attributes like attack or defense.
A knife, a sword, or a gun - doesnt have that.

A distance weapon may have accuracy. That is a matter of the weapon's allignment. A gun or a crossbow - may be misconfigured. Then they lsoe accuracy.

Distance weapons must be calculated TOTALLY differently.
Thats why they were made and brought into utilization. So that people dont have to use their physical qualities in melee.

Distance weapon damage must be calculated upon bolt/arrow speed * bolt/arrow's weight.
Speed must be calculated based on crossbow spring quality or bow spring quality.
Speed of bolt/Arrow - has nothing to do with character's agility. Because character is not throwing a bolt and is not running together with it.
Reload speed only must depend on character agility.

I have it all in my notebook. I wrote down the entire fighting system how it should be in Illarion, if it's ever going to become anything more than a school project. Just ask me, and I will hand my ideas to you.

And don't tell me it's too hard and impossible to code.
I'm graduating with a degree in programming. I know this: anything is possible.
*points to the upper part of the post* Strange thing is, almost all games have hammers and maces and such balanced in t he same way. Strange huh? Maybe it is because it is true? :roll:
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Konstantin K
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Post by Konstantin K »

It's because it's not true. And Illarion tries to model that common RPG model.

According to game designs, everything has to be "balanced".

A mace balances out against a sword, because it is heavier. And should need more strength.

Misjbar, before you post something, make it useful, other than referencing to other games. As you told me yourself, Illarion is not like other games. You were among the ones who went furious when I mentioned other games, and shouted "Well then go away and play those games".

Don't oppose my views just for the fact of opposing ME.

Give a concrete argument like Galdriel did.

Tell your experiences with weapon use and combat, reveal your qualifications.

This is what I hate. Posted like Kasume and Misj, quoting paragraphs of another person's text, and giving some one-liner attachments without further explanations. Such posts should be deleted as SPAM.
Galdriel
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Post by Galdriel »

yes,

and if after hitting him the axe or picklike thing is stuck in the bones
you are dead because someone else catches you hindered and unarmed.


the point is, it is nearly impossible to reflect such things perfectly and thus
be have to balance advantages and disadvantages in another way.
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John Irenicus
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Post by John Irenicus »

@Bloodhearte: I didn't really answer directly to K's posting, I only used the quotes to bring some general examples. This was not about judging anyones roleplay.

@K: I am sure you are able to roleplay, I never said you couldn't, but playing a char that never interacts with other chars despite killing them (if that fits to your short explanation of a rouge) with the skills gained alone is kind of absurd in a roleplayiong game.
No offense meant. :wink:

Now, back to topic.
Intelligence should be a small determining factor,
I agree with Gro'bul here. It is impossible to have a good fighter if he has to have a huge intelligence to learn how to smash someone with his axe. Mages already need intelligence for the spells, so they would have a benefit when creating their chars.

How about "rp points"? Everytime things you write are longer than 10 letters or so, you gain one rp point for every letter after it. #me's of that lengh give 2 rp points for a letter. When a certain limit of points is reached, you get the bonus. People who like to train the whole day gain skills, and people who like to talk and rp a bit more will gain skills, too. Of course those limits should be high, otherwise you gain those bonus in one long evening. With those bonus, skills can be raised slightly. A rule could be to only raise skills which fit to the character and which are at least usually trained technically, so it fits to the role, too.
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Post by Quinasa »

Moirear Sian wrote:I like this proposal and agree with it.
Just food for thought, Willpower could have its play in these matters too (you need patience to learn something, not just intellect; and willpower would reflect patience). As I've noticed that lot of people still don't give a damn about assigning low mental attribute ratings and roleplaying them appropriately.
I would like to add that Maj has an intel of 4 where as Quin has an intel of 15 and I happen to think I RP those traits VERY well. :[ To Give an example: Maj has a low intel and so she is quite simple-minded. She doesn't really learn new words but makes them up as she goes, she's got street smarts but not book smarts. She's got common sense but just because she has it doesn't mean she can realize that she has it. She can't read and she doesn't know how to count, she's in complete awe of people who do. Quin, on the other hand, is very smart. She thinks everything through and sometimes too much. She's a fast learner with both street smarts and book smarts, she went to school for a long time. She is patient and friendly and doesn't jump to conclusions. All of this is implimented by my role play but also by their stats.

I always thought that designing a char and distributing attributes went hand in hand.
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Misjbar
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Post by Misjbar »

How about "rp points"? Everytime things you write are longer than 10 letters or so, you gain one rp point for every letter after it. #me's of that lengh give 2 rp points for a letter. When a certain limit of points is reached, you get the bonus. People who like to train the whole day gain skills, and people who like to talk and rp a bit more will gain skills, too. Of course those limits should be high, otherwise you gain those bonus in one long evening. With those bonus, skills can be raised slightly. A rule could be to only raise skills which fit to the character and which are at least usually trained technically, so it fits to the role, too.
Wouldn't that result in people powergaming their RP points? I mean, I could just do "#me ashuhg oughasg jough hogh aohuogh hsdouh. Hgouha hodugh ouah odhgoeuh." And gain RP points. Or did you have something else in mind?
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Bloodhearte
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Post by Bloodhearte »

Sorry about the misunderstanding John, that was kind of embarrassing. :oops:

@K, in regards to concussion versus slashing, slashing can be more efficient...

But with concussion weapons, it can cause serious internal damage. The human form is designed to maintain its organs against gravity, a downward pull. Imagine what hell the body can go through when force is delivered perpendicularly. :wink:

A guy I spoke to named Jack said he had a friend who owned a metal shop...this owner made sharp objects for his finger nails as "self defense" measures. That seemed excessive in Jack's opinion. Jack practices a Chinese striking art that delivers force with a very small surface area, at around 450 ft/pounds. That's enough to give concussive damage to organs.

Anyway, the point is, while slashing damage can kill, it risks causing nothing more than superficial/flesh damage...it's bloody, but it might not stop the mechanics of a body...concussive almost guarantees internal body damage, whether it can be recovered from or not.

Yes, sorry people, I know we're talking about a game but I can't help it. :lol:

With the current fighting system, what displeases me is the difference between the "skill sets" of slashing weapons and concussion weapons...it's possible to be great at concussion but absolutely suck when you hold a sword. I think slashing/concussion should be melded. IMO, if somebody is good at swinging a mace they're also good at swinging a sword. The difference is the object you're holding, but with both movements, it's a swing.
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Post by Misjbar »

Don't you hit on different places with a sword etcetera? Then for instance with a mace? I would go directly for head with a mace, or atleast bang against their ribcage. Whereas with a sword I would slash to the lower parts of the body, with fleshy easily cutted flesh/organs. But I agree, maybe axe and mace concussion skills should be melded. It makes sense to me that you swing an axe on exactly the same places (and since they have near equal weight) the same way.

@Konstantin
Misjbar, before you post something, make it useful, other than referencing to other games. As you told me yourself, Illarion is not like other games. You were among the ones who went furious when I mentioned other games, and shouted "Well then go away and play those games".

Don't oppose my views just for the fact of opposing ME.
You are totally right. I'm sorry. :) *points above* I tried?
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Bloodhearte
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Post by Bloodhearte »

Misjbar wrote:Don't you hit on different places with a sword etcetera? Then for instance with a mace? I would go directly for head with a mace, or atleast bang against their ribcage. Whereas with a sword I would slash to the lower parts of the body, with fleshy easily cutted flesh/organs. But I agree, maybe axe and mace concussion skills should be melded. It makes sense to me that you swing an axe on exactly the same places (and since they have near equal weight) the same way.
I'm not really quite sure what you're asking in the first part of your post unfortunately...with either weapon, you can aim pretty much anywhere and cause some kind of damage.

Edit: I think balance in the system is important because as just a game, Illarion would allow people to have their own preferred style of weapons...there would be no "choice combos" to deliver maximum damage possible. A guy who likes a one handed sword can be as deadly as a guy that likes two daggers.

I think we're switching the topic from "Anti-PG methods" to the "Combat system." :wink: Maybe we should revive PO of Darlok's old topic on it, lurking somewhere on this forum.
Last edited by Bloodhearte on Thu May 12, 2005 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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