Sam and Eliza

[Kamik Windslasher ~]

I think this is a known bug and probably a minor to be fixed in the line. However, I see many people complaining about it (as well as me), so I decided to ask, if possible, to Sam and Eliza be fixed.
First of all:why Sam is inside the castle?
Second: Sam only buy red shirts and green trousers. I don't know if this is right, but when you ask what he buys he doesn't especific a color, he just say the substantive. He also doesn't buy hats.
For Eliza, I think she is one of the main sources of gold in Troll's Bane, since she buy smithed weapons. But, she doens't buy wooden shields AND pays 0 copper for a cheap dagger.
I remember that that other man inside the shop (I forgot his name) also doesn't buy conifer wood or small handles, last time I checked.

There are probably other major bugs to be fixed now that makes these ones unnecessary to fix, however, I'd like to point that not just me, but many people would like it working properly. So I hope that the script fot the npcs isn't hard to handle with.

Feel free to add any other bug about npcs you have found.

[Aegohl]

Sam is in the Grey Rose Castle because someone decided to place him there.

Sam doesn't really buy shirts at all, as things are seen from this standpoint--he buys item id's.

None of the above are actually bugs, and the rest especially are not. Yes. We don't have a complete economy, yet. Nonetheless, Sam and Eliza will not buy all of your goods, ever, and they won't sell you everything ever, either.

Truth be told, none of that really matters, though. I'm overhauling the merchant NPC's as we speak.

Aegohl

[Konstantin K]

Sicne it's being overhauled, could you please throw the talking stuff out and return to shift-click interface? Talking to NPCs is really... useless. It doesn't contribute to RP in my opinion. I mean, come on. Who really cares? But the interface is a pain in the ass.

If people are chatting, the list of wares scrolls too high up, and you have to re-ask before you can study the wares.

The old panel was really... a lot better.

[Bloodhearte]

Mm, I liked the old method too...having a three questioned conversation with the merchants was kind of interesting at first, but then it became a chore to always type "I would like to see a list of your wares," or "I would like to buy ****." (And I'm not being stingy here...I type at least 77 words per-minute)

[Aegohl]

The difference for me was that dealing with Sam before was a chore of going through a menu while, sometimes, also trying to rp with other people. Today I was able to check the price and buy arrows as a matter of reflex. However, I've had more time and more of a reason to do this enough to understand the system on an instinctive level.

Give it some more time, and you'll find that once you already know what wares an NPC will have and what things all NPC's react to, it will be much faster.

It's just: "Could you list the price of <this item>?" "I would like to buy 12 of <this item> then." and done.

If you want menus again, well, it's back to two NPC's again, in no time. If you want dozens of NPC's spread throughout the map, selling and buying dynamically, editeable at a moment's notice, and creating a full economy, you have the current option.

At the end of the day, the difference is you know the price before you buy now, whereas before you had to go to your depot and place all your money in it and then try to buy and wait for the error to tell you how much money an item costs. That's just a bit ridiculous, no?

We haven't done it in this fashion so that you can have memorable rp with the NPC's. We have done this in this fashion so you can have memorable rp with eachother that involves a real ingame economy where the merchants fit into it seemlessly.

[Rugosch]

The system at the moment is great. I like it much more than the old system. But maybe there is a phrase that isnt there or I havent found the right words at the moment (And I speak often with the NPCs. Sometimes they are so funny .

"What would you pay for <item>?" Would be nice. But there are more important things to do at the moment...

[martin]

This phrase exists since the very beginning.
"How much would you pay for an apple" or "What would you pay for an apple".
Both works and worked.

Martin

[Rugosch]

This phrase exists since the very beginning.
"How much would you pay for an apple" or "What would you pay for an apple".
Both works and worked.

Martin

Than I should try to speak more clear. It seems the merchants doesnt understand me

[Aegohl]

The NPC's are actually quite sophisticated little animals, suprisingly. When you consider what can be done with so few lines with the scripting language and then consider how many lines even the most basic NPC has it's quite amazing.

[Moathia]

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with K here, I hate the new npc's, infact whenever I need to buy or sell something, I think, "God damnit I have to use the npcs again" With the old system usind the npc's were easier to use and faster, especially if you make one typo in the whole sentance and you have to type it all again.

[Avaloner]

You know they seem to react on Kewords. So you don't need to use "I would like to buy xyz" its enough to say "buy xyz", but it sounds pretty dump so the best is to whisper it to them.

[Konstantin K]

Right now, I hate even the phrase itself.

"list your wares", "what do you buy", "what do you sell"...

I mean, this is a hatred reflex. In case of a typo, I am screwed. In case of many people on the market chatting - screwed.

Okay, hold on. Aegohl's idea of dynamic trade and multiple NPCs is GREAT!! Just do it with the old menus. Create menus with different items, dynamic ones - on different NPCs.

New economy, old methods.


Thing is, Grey Rose guy is bugged, docks sailor is bugged, he just answers:
I sell.
I buy.

Eliza buys cheap daggers for 0 coins, but they DO vanish from your inventory.

Some NPCs react to "list your wares", some don't.
Silverbrand Entrance guy - does NOT react to "list your wares" he only reacts to "what do you sell".

It's like, you have to guess GM's minds. Looks like all NPCs were worked on by different people.

The dude at the graveyard - reacts to keywords
"job", "graveyard", "dead". But it takes forever to guess what to say to him. Hence, it results in an idiotic conversation, where you try to repeat possible keywords.

Job. Do. What. Labor. Hire. Work. Money. Whatever...

Sounds just awfully.... TIBIA.

And Tibia - sucks.



Have the old shift-click-panels back, but keep the dynamic inventory, and all the trade rules - as they are in the new system. Prices, limited inventory, limited buying ability. Everything is good, just the interaction part.

[Keikan Hiru]

The problem with going back to the old way is we would lose the ability to create "Small Talk" NPCs (just like Ramond at the Graveyard), that would give you quest hints, spread rumors or give general hints about locations.
I wouldnt be willing to sacrefice that huge advantage just because of your inability to type small, basic, repeating phrases without typos and general lazyness, Konstantin.

Edit:
Ramond has 19 triggers (at least the version I created), so he has a bit more to say as you might think.
But sometimes you need to say a bit more then just a single "Keyword", because Tibia-style sucks.
Full sentances are your friends.

[Moirear Sian]

Sorry, but I agree that this NPC speech system is pretty much bull.

1. On the frontpage it says "graphical RPG", not "text adventure", sorry.
2. Trial and error is detrimentive to RP; RPers already did smalltalk with NPCs before the new client. In other words if anybody spammed up log files it was a player and mandatory. Now it's the NPCs doing the spamming and there's no way getting around it either than avoiding the NPCs like a plague.
3. Why are the devs/staff/GMs being so allergic against comments that are speaking against it? We all know you put your hearts and lifeblood into it. But we don't care. This speech system tends to suck. It takes some heart and lifeblood from our playing. But you don't care either, do you. Nor will you give out lists of the speech commands so people stop complaining.
4. With #3, I don't see why you don't combine the speech and the graphical interface so both is existant. Shift-click NPC -- opens an inventory window with several options: "Buy", "Sell", "Talk", etc. Eliza and the others already had the "don't touch me!", so why this is not considered a possibility-- beats me.
5. Trying out for 10-20 minutes with an NPC just to buy 1 (!!!) single, simple item, is asking for too much. That has nothing to do with RP. A character with 18 Int and 18 Wil and 18 Ess would get what he/she wants, pronto. The NPC speech system however is dialogue between player and NPC, the character is only a medium in between. This is stupid for RP.
6. Just like #4 suggesting to combine speech and graphical interface, if you insist like maniacs on the speech interface, then make it so every option has around 50 keywords and key sentences for the same option. I don't care what YOU think is great. But the last thing that it is, is intuitive. Trust a tester's opinion on this: IT IS NOT INTUITIVE.
7. I'm with Moathia on this. When I think of NPC, I think of hate.

[Talaena Landessi]

we need more of the stuff to be stack-able...like clothes...and other small stuff..i understand if the stuff that has durability cant stack , but like crafted items that youve JUST made like uhm..example axehandles...i have to bring each on out of my depot one at a time...i have so many that it gets kinda annoying..if mugosh ever had money id be able to sell them as i make them, but it seems when ever i get on he doesnt have any money so i end up putting more and more stuff into my already cluttered depot *cries dragging out her 1987th axe handle out of her depot*

[Estralis Seborian]

Has anybody thought about the possibility that both versions (shift click menu and talking) might be possible? Or a combination?

Currently, I am not satisfied with the NPCs, either. But with the new scripting language, many, many things are possible. It all has to be done and that takes time.

[Salathe]

yes integrate both in, you can say hello what is the price of this, and all that good stuff, but to buy you just right click whatever. So when your talking to someone near an NPC and you say "I'd like to buy a bow, but i need to save" you arent forced to pay 250 copper for one (or atleast thats how much eliza forced me to buy it for)

and we can have the npcs that give quest hints and stuff

[Moirear Sian]

I'm willing to sit out the current situation with the NPCs for a few months, but only as long as I know it's being reconsidered to combine speech & graphical interface with the NPCs.

[Garett Gwenour]

Yeah, my only complaint is, I can only get on at 5 pm pacific time, sometime in the morning but not often. At the time I can log on it seems Mugush has lost all his copper coins by buying axe handles from everyone else. This leaves me at disadvantage since I cannot log on early enough to be able to sell my axe handles. I really think you should take away the NCP running out of money feature for a while.

[Serpardum]

Or just break it up more. Instead of getting all them money at a certain time make it so they get 1/2 the money 12 hours apart, or better yet 1/4 the money every 6 hours.

[Garett Gwenour]

I like Separdum's idea..
btw
Separdum... you in long beach?
I am in Huntington beach
I am cooler then you.

[Konstantin K]

The problem with going back to the old way is we would lose the ability to create "Small Talk" NPCs (just like Ramond at the Graveyard), that would give you quest hints, spread rumors or give general hints about locations.
I wouldnt be willing to sacrefice that huge advantage just because of your inability to type small, basic, repeating phrases without typos and general lazyness, Konstantin.

Combine both, like it's been suggested. You can have quest NPCs and trader NPCs. Two different NPC types. Where is the problem?

And Keikan, stop your dominatrix crap. You're not the uber-mega-lord-tyrant-dictator. It's not my "inability" to type. I can type just fine. I just don't WANT to. I'm not trying to insult you. I'm trying to tell you what's better for the game.

If you don't want me to play, and don't like me, just say it.

[Kamik Windslasher ~]

Sam is in the Grey Rose Castle because someone decided to place him there.

Sam doesn't really buy shirts at all, as things are seen from this standpoint--he buys item id's.

None of the above are actually bugs, and the rest especially are not. Yes. We don't have a complete economy, yet. Nonetheless, Sam and Eliza will not buy all of your goods, ever, and they won't sell you everything ever, either.

Truth be told, none of that really matters, though. I'm overhauling the merchant NPC's as we speak.

Aegohl

So, ok. Eliza pays 0 copper for cheap daggers and that's not a bug? Fine. But something is not working properly and since the GMs stated that this new script is easier to handle and to add more options, then why not give it a check?
The game's objetive is to have fun, and this minor fact of the npcs, which was said to doesn't really matter, is taking part of the fun and giving some, if I can say, headaches.
I agree that the menus were much more easier. And rping with the npcs was never a problem. Once, Dominik Windslasher tried to convince Fooser that he was in love with Eliza and we needed no talking-npc for this.
I am not saying that the fact that they talk now destroys completely the RP. No. But this idea of a shift + click opening a menu with "talk", "buy" and "sell" option is much more interesting than the actual system of guessing what to say to a npc.

ps: Now Sam doesn't sell me his bags.

[Ziel Oden]

Whatever. It is annoying to talk to NPCs. Infact i dislike it, not hate it. It is kinda fun to talk to something, atleast get to read something when no one is on.

BUT
Eliza needs to die. I think in a quest she needs to die and a happy merchant halfling comes in and buys whatever you want to sell.. make life better for us.. please..

And what makes me sick is that you people complain about the NPCs. There are 1,000s of bugs out there and you people complain about the decent shop system.

You know what i want to see more then Eliza/shops/etc combined? water. water! I cant make bread! That, my friends, is lame.


~Ziel~

[Aegohl]

The NPC buys those for 0 copper pieces because he has enough. He doesn't want more. If you want to give him some more, then you do so for free.

Each NPC has their own idea of where their stocks should sit and depending on where their stock is they change their mind about the worth of that object.

Sam isn't selling you bags because he has no bags. When he runs out of bags, he can't sell you any more. That seems logical, no? Besides that, you can only carry one bag at a time, anyways.

Guessing what to say? We've told you in all sorts of places what to say. I have no problem figuring out what I have to say. Why do you?

Just walk up and say "List your wares." "List price for <item>" "I want buy <number(1, 2, 3 NOT one, two, three)> <item>" Done.

And yet again I bring up that I'm working on ALL the merchant NPC's currently plus many, many more. They can be edited by someone who knows more about lua after I'm done to add a menu for those who aren't that clever, but they will *all* follow the same keywords as the next one.

Aegohl

[Moirear Sian]

We've told you in all sorts of places what to say.

Aye, and good luck to all those who now embark to seek all the single scraps all over the boards.
Not to add to the burden, but do you think you could make a post on the General Board some time (i.e., when you're done overhauling the NPCs) with a list of the common speech commands? (Also perhaps adding the hint that the quest NPCs oftenly speak certain keywords themselves.)

I have no problem figuring out what I have to say.

Hah hah, very funny to read that from someone who scripts them. Veeerrry funny.

Why do you?

For the record I finally got it in my head today that "list your wares" actually lets them say what effectively need to know—the actual names of the items in question. Until then I was working with "what do you sell?" (much easier to guess, but the given reply is effectively only fancy and at the same time useless), and blindly guessing things.

On a final note, please refrain from implying that the players are "less clever" when all they fail in is reading some people's minds.

Thank you for your attention.

[Aegohl]

Sorry. I'm a bit moody, I have a cold, and I have a whole lot of work on my hands. And no, I didn't script them. I corrected their dialogue. I didn't even script Yastahl and Tihgorac. I wrote their dialogue. Many of the NPC merchants dialogues were written by helpful players like you. The problem is, yes, they aren't easy enough. They don't do their job. They have submenus of dialogue (for example: "What do you sell?" "This sort of item, this sort of item, and this sort of item" "What kind of this sort of items do you sell?" "This item, this item, and this item") and that's just not helpful.

What I am making will make things a whole lot simpler, and, suprisingly, make it a whole lot more realistic as well. Those submenus will be gone. All NPCs will be specialized. They will be spread over the island in all villages to keep all our favorite villages active. There will be various monopolies instead of a handful.

At the end of the day, what this means is there will no longer be a Sam who sells all kinds of clothes, flour, and some tools. There will be a cobbler who sells shoes and boots, and buys supplies that a cobbler would need. Starting at that point and doing it with every NPC, we'll end up with a whole lot of logical NPC's.

You'll be able to say "Hello" and have the NPC tell you what he does, and immediately have a logical guess at what he buys and what he sells. If your guess is wrong, you'll be able to say "List your wares" and his wares will be listed in a simple list. If you want to sell him something, and you need to know what he buys you'll be able to say "What do you buy?" and again he'll list it in a conveinent way.

Then it's just a matter of saying "I want to buy <amount><item>" or "I want to sell <amount><item>." Easy, fast, effective. Afterwards we can talk about menus.

Aegohl

[Sir Giandor]

Ich will ja nicht meckern, aber es kommt auch vor, daß die Händler, egal wer, behaupten, daß sie etwas für eine Ware bezahlen und die Ware behalten, aber keinen Kupfer rausrücken. ICh nehme nicht an, das dies so vorgesehen ist.

[Aegohl]

I apologize, Giandor, but I don't speak German. From the little that I know of the language, I can guess that your post has something to do with what's being talked about. Could someone translate what he wrote?

[Konstantin K]

Scrap the "I want to" part.

Just say sell 2 axes.
buy 3 maces
list wares - opens list.
buy a sword
sell a shield


Simpler.