Potions

[martin]

I have a proposal to make:

There has been some discussion about whether or not it is fair to drink potions while fighting or running.

My opinion is: IRL, I could stop doing what I just did (run, fight, ...) and have a drink.
As soon as I am finished, I can do what I have done before.

Technically, this would need about 2 minutes to be implemented in Illarion: As soon as you drink a potion, you stand still for some seconds, you cannot run, you cannot fight.

My question is: Should we do that?

Martin

[Estralis Seborian]

IMHO, yes.

But I´d say, two to four seconds are enough so you can still flee from a monster and recover in a safe distance.

[Lysu Davanum]

I think yes, would make it fair, so you cannot gulp down potion after potion in fights to stay ahead with health.

[Dónal Mason]

Yes. Currently, it's too easy to just drink a potion while fighting/running. Then, people would have to make a choice. Hit a few more times, or increase health recovery.

[Sam]

As long as "some seconds" is not too long (4 seconds or less?) then yes, I think this would be alright.

I don't have a magic character but I take it it's the same for casting spells?

[Aryllis]

You cant heal yourself.....

[John Irenicus]

Two seconds would be ok in my mind, but it still makes fighting against "bigger" creatures impossible if you are alone.

[Kasume]

Even so, it could be almost impossible with a group.

[Sam]

Good point John and Kasume I didn't think of that. It would make advancement of fighter characters very hard if not impossible.
Perhaps it would be better to leave to the players discretion rather than code it into the game.

[Gruroka]

I don't like the idea of not being able to move when drinking something.

On the one hand it might be more realistic if someone is not able to drink and move but on the other hand there might be special interactions where that is possible if you rp it good.

Now it may sound good, but maybe later people are annoyed by not being able to do anything when drinking a potion. This doesn't sound like any fun. Illarion works fine without the drink-stop thing, doesn't it?

I'm against this and prefer the way of just rp-ing it.

[John Irenicus]

Good point. One point of the recent "conflicts" was that too much reality can destroy parts of fun when playing.

It works well, and people can do a e.g. #me drinks a potion aktion when fighting and running, it is hard to run and type in the same place.

[Fooser]

Drinking while running= Possible, although it is harder to drink obviously, so maybe it's possible to have potions effect lessened while running? Like: Potions have full effect when standing still, but when moving, it's weaker.

And as for drinking when fighting, nearly impossible if you want to fight effectively

[Estralis Seborian]

How about a delay that lasts as long as the "gluck gluck gluck" sound?

[Brendan Mason]

I'm in favour of this. There seem to be a lot of "chug 'n' smash" fighters around, who abuse (strong term...perhaps I should reword it...meh) the loophole of indefinite chugging etc.

Perhaps if there's en masse uproar with people up in arms about a delay, then the system could be tweaked and changed. We'll never know whether it will work or not if we don't test it.

[Moirear Sian]

IMHO, bad idea:

• + • "Deceptive Realism"
  — • You can drink something IRL when you're running. Try it out.
  — • Heavier imbalance in combat*

* To explain, it's simple: combat as it is in illarion is imbalanced. The people with 20Str/20Con already have unnecessary benefits (while their minimum-stats don't dog them enough), and the "potion timer proposal" here would favor them even more.
I don't know about you people, but try bringing #me's with people and monsters that kill you in two to three hits. I'd be amazed over your results. Now, try picturing such characters in such situations with this potion proposal.

Instead, I'd like to propose alternatives:

• • Potion consumption cap — you can only drink a single potion every 15-60 seconds. When you drink something, a timer is initiated, and while the timer is running, the character cannot drink anything else.
  • Reduced potion effect while running — as I said above, try drinking and running. You can do it, but most people spill half the contents over their face. Instead of disabling any action while drinking a potion, reducing potion effects while doing other actions (while running or fighting: minus 25%-75% effectivity) would be much more wise, and level things out more for newbies and weaker characters.
  • Make it impossible to drink potions with helmets on.

Edit: I see some people were faster.

[Estralis Seborian]

• Potion consumption cap — you can only drink a single potion every 15-60 seconds. When you drink something, a timer is initiated, and while the timer is running, the character cannot drink anything else.

Don´t we have this already with healing potions? I mean, the effect of a healing potion is delayed. So, the next potion you drink will only have effect after the effect of the first one did end.

Is this the case?

[Moirear Sian]

I don't know, but if it is, IMHO it is way too short, and having the effects overlap so that one kicks in when the other ends, defeats the purpose of this proposal as well (kick in three, sit off your 2-4 seconds, and fight on forever with your character's 20Str/20Con? Sounds silly to me, and like leaving "loopholes" open in the logic behind it).
I see above I proposed a cap of 15-60 seconds, this cap time limit could be a multiple of time (360, 720, 1200, even higher—they all sound reasonable to me). This would have various benefits for role-playing:

• • Characters who are "sent to the cross" will really think twice about potioning up and running back into combat;
  • Characters who are seriously injured in combat will retreat more, run more, surrender — things that are completely underrated in role-playing, but we should encourage more, rather than senseless PKing/MKing;
  • Players are encouraged more to retreat, cease battle, and role-play the effects of wounds and injury imparted to their characters.

[martin]

Potion consumption cap — you can only drink a single potion every 15-60 seconds. When you drink something, a timer is initiated, and while the timer is running, the character cannot drink anything else.

Very difficult to realize.

Reduced potion effect while running — as I said above, try drinking and running. You can do it, but most people spill half the contents over their face. Instead of disabling any action while drinking a potion, reducing potion effects while doing other actions (while running or fighting: minus 25%-75% effectivity) would be much more wise, and level things out more for newbies and weaker characters.

Very difficult to realize.

Make it impossible to drink potions with helmets on.

Easy to realize.

Martin

[martin]

I mean, the effect of a healing potion is delayed. So, the next potion you drink will only have effect after the effect of the first one did end.

Is this the case?

No.

If you drink a potion that gives you 10 HP every second and drink another one of the same kind, you get 20 HP every second etc.

Martin

[Galim]

Thats a difficult desicion. Of course it would be more realistic, and fair against other players, but it something different against monsters. Yet it is hard to fight against monsters, and as long as some gm's like it to bring 12 trolls in a row in one attack (don't want to pint to some special person ) such a change in potions would be, well, deadly.

when a potion would stop you, wouldn't it stop the process of healing too? What is with poison on others? This would make it, well, as good as impossible to roleplay this, even when you roleplay it good and fair.

And what is with mkanapotions? I mean, yet a mage is stunned after he casted a paralize spell, succesfull or not. And now he should be stunned too after he drunk a mana potion? I mean, a mage don't use magic infight, because it is useless when you got hurt. So he wouldn't drink a manapotion in a melee fight.
But when a manapotion would stun him while he stoods 5 feet away from a fight and trys to use magic which isn't really powerful as long as you are no ubermage would mean to make a mage, well, really helpless.

for example: to kill a skeleton a mage need 5 fireballs, he can cast 3 in a row, than he need a manapotion. the skeletons walks to him, the mage walks away and casts, than he need new mana, so he will drink a potion. But because of the stun effect he will stand still. and 2 Seconds are sometimes enough time for a skeleton to reach you. and once he hit you you are, well, in problems as a mage.
And even when the skeleton don't hit him, he has to run away again, cast again, drink again. Not many mages are fast runners.

What I want to say is, against players it would be a good improvement. But against monsters, it would make it really, well, annoying and deadly. Perhaps it would be enough to stop hitting the enemy when you use a potion. You drink a potion and immediately you stop fighting and have to start the fight again. And perhaps you can't parry for some time.

or if it is easy to realize that you can't drink potions while wearing a helm, why not changing this to helmet AND no free hand. You can't drink a potion as long as you have no free hand and a helmet on.
You have to put the fullhelmet (it should be just for full helmets) and your weapon, shield or whatever off to drink a potion. this means "time" and less attack or defend options. as a fighter you still can hold a sword and use it while you try to drink a potion, it isn't easy, but possible. You can hold a shield too, and try to protect you, as long as you hase a free hand for the potion. Or you can try to dodge a hit. Of course it would be difficult, but it is possible.
To make it impossible to do that while drinking potion is not the right way. But to force the players to put full helmet off and one hand free would be a good idea, in my eyes.
You are not stunned and you can still walk or whatever.

[Djironnyma]

Mein bekanntlich schlechtes Englich reicht nicht aus um die gesammte Diskusion zu überblicken. Deswegen entschuldige ich mich vorher, wenn der folgende Vorschlag schon Eingebracht wurde.
Ich finde es auch nicht besonders berauschend wenn jemand Mitten im Kampf ersteinmal eine Flasche leertrinken kann. Das ist nicht gerade realistich, aber das wären Orks, Magie und Feuerschwerter auch nicht, soviel dazu. Ich würde einen Kompromiss zwichen beiden Möglichkeiten am besten finden, der so aussieht das man kleine/schwache Tränke im Kampf trinken kann, größere/effektivere nicht. Zumindest ich kann mir recht gut vorstellen, dass man selbst in Kampf eine kleine Phiole Flüßigkeit ohne große Unaufmerksamkeit zu sich nehmen kann. Je nach Waffengattung würde ein durch eine solche Aktion nur ein bis zwei Attacken, bei Zweihändigen Waffen auch Paraden verloren gehen. Diesen kleinen Nachteil kann mann meiner Meinung nach zum Gunste des Spielspaßes ignorieren. Hinzu kommt, das im PvP die ausgleichende Gerechtigkeit herrscht, dass für jeden die selben "Trinkeinschränkungen" gelten.

[martin]

Mein bekanntlich schlechtes Englich reicht nicht aus um die gesammte Diskusion zu überblicken.

Und das mit Abitur.

http://www.spiegel.de/unispiegel/studiu ... 34,00.html

Martin, kopfschuettelnd

[Gruroka]

Potion consumption cap — you can only drink a single potion every 15-60 seconds. When you drink something, a timer is initiated, and while the timer is running, the character cannot drink anything else.

How about changing a timer with that 'eating'-system? When i ate too much in Illarion i got sick and lost health. Maybe it would be possible to make potions stuff you completely, and when you drink another one, you lose health instead of gaining some. After some time, you will be able to drink something again (as i was able to eat something again, some time later).

I still don't like the idea of not being able to move because you drink a potion. The disadvantages it gives the game sound bigger to me then the advantages it gives. Isn't the fighting in Illarion working very well?

Somehow i must think about the sentence 'Never change a running system'. Some players of course are abusing the potions, but should that be the reason, to make the very good help of using potions, go away for other players? I hope, we'll find a better solution then the 'not-move' system. I'm still against it.

[Adano Eles]

A possibility:
Instead of adding up the effects of multiple potions would it be possible just to restart the regeneration timer for each new potion?
I.e. If a potion would last 20 seconds and you drink a new one after ten seconds you just get 20 seconds of regeneration from this moment on, making it 30 seconds? That at least would lower the effect of potion chugging.

[martin]

A possibility:
Instead of adding up the effects of multiple potions would it be possible just to restart the regeneration timer for each new potion?
I.e. If a potion would last 20 seconds and you drink a new one after ten seconds you just get 20 seconds of regeneration from this moment on, making it 30 seconds? That at least would lower the effect of potion chugging.

EVERYTHING is possible, the thing is:
Again, this is very difficult to realize.

Martin

[Aristeaus]

Hmmm.

Maybe you should make it you can only drink potions when you dont have a target selected.
In this case you wont be able to drink whilst fighting, which would be the situation. But you can still chug away to your hearts content.

You could make it that while you have a target selected, you cant alter or use your inventory.

It stops people changing weapons mid combat, unless they unselect thier target.. Again th delay in time.

Two birds with one stone

[John Irenicus]

Galim's point is good in my mind.
Someone with a war axe and a full helmet won't be able to drink potions,
someone with a normal sword and e.g a chain helmet would be able.
This solution would even take the imbalance of two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons away.

[Bloodhearte]

Yes, I think this is a great idea. Healing potions will be able to heal you considerably, but it doesn't mean that you won't get turned into minced meat if you're trying to cheat.

I'm all for it. 4-6 seconds sounds good to me, especially considering the character is trying to down an ENTIRE bottle!

[Fooser]

That's exactly what we need, more realism. Currently, people recover from injury in about one day, come on guys, that's horrible roleplay. In real life it takes a year to fully recover from serious injury. Therefore, peoples health bars should only go up a decimeter per day, to simulate this realistic recovery, better yet we get rid of the stupid potions altogether and make people BEG for a healer, that would be more realistic, and obviously better and more fun.

[Moirear Sian]

Maybe you should make it you can only drink potions when you dont have a target selected.
In this case you wont be able to drink whilst fighting, which would be the situation. But you can still chug away to your hearts content.

You could make it that while you have a target selected, you cant alter or use your inventory.

It stops people changing weapons mid combat, unless they unselect thier target.. Again th delay in time.

I like this proposal the best.
How difficult would this be to implement?