Potions

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:20 am

I never thought about the changing armor thing. I too like the untarget to drink potions, and unability to change your inventory. This way you could not pick up anything while fighting like if multiple persons are fighting one, the one cannot steal a killed person's things while still fighting the other.

Fooser, a little too realistic, perhaps a druid would have to administer the potions? Druids have to heal them, I think it is a great idea accually, but for the future. This way people would have to interact with a healer instead of just buying 5000 potions from them.

martin · Post by **martin** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:10 am

Aristeaus wrote:Maybe you should make it you can only drink potions when you dont have a target selected.
In this case you wont be able to drink whilst fighting, which would be the situation. But you can still chug away to your hearts content.

This one is easy, but requires a server update. My first proposal woudln't need that, we would just need to change one line in one script.

You could make it that while you have a target selected, you cant alter or use your inventory.

Possible, but again requires a new server version.

Martin

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:55 am

I hate to sound like a naysayer, but how about the solution of not being able to drink potions when the character is wearing a helmet? I just think that would be more reasonable, as the "drinking delay" would then be given by having to take the helmet off before being able to drink a potion. I am almost sure that an action delay is going to make the newbie characters suffer.

Caranthir the great · Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:33 am

I think, that (unless there is some technical thingy) this should only go for "full helmets". Another reason for people not to always pick the most "efficent" equipment available.

martin · Post by **martin** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:37 am

Caranthir the great wrote:Another reason for people not to always pick the most "efficent" equipment available.

You should not mix up things.
Then, full helmets will not be the "most efficient" equipment anymore, at least in some situations.

Martin

Belegi · Post by **Belegi** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:44 am

I second a very short delay (around 1 second).

About the helmets, I think this would mean too much work with no positive effect. In how far would the fun in the game benefite from this? Realism sucks.

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:43 pm

If realism sucks, why implement any delay then?

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:45 pm

thats not just for realism, but for fairness too. there are players who play fair and don't drink dozens of potions in fight, and others who are drinking 20 of them. if there is no change it will mean that the fair and good palyers have a disadvantage, or that they have to change their roleplay to the unfair sort.

Jeremy Gems Willowbrook · Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:19 pm

I think a delay would be acceptable. If it makes combal more dangerous then is that such a bad thing? Forcing fighters to team up to fight big monsters or pick their fights carefully. If you are badly hurt you should withdraw from combat....heal then return. Not stand toe to toe with an enemy drinking potions. Besides...which hand do you use to hold the potion? The one wildly swinging and parrying or the one holding your shield? Or does everyone have bottle holders and straws on their helmets?
(if so where can I get one?)......

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:21 pm

hey, good idea. right and left a healing potion on the helmet, and from them a drinking straw to the mouth

like that american beer-hats ^^

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:32 pm

Galim wrote:thats not just for realism, but for fairness too. there are players who play fair and don't drink dozens of potions in fight, and others who are drinking 20 of them.

First off, I haven't noticed anybody drinking 20 potions on me in the past few weeks of playing. Second, I'd like to repeat that this delay is going to favor the people who have 20 Str & 20 Con & 1 Int & 1 Ess, if you know what I mean. I don't see how it should correct disadvantages other than during the immediate melee.
Do the math of what's been said here in this thread: Let's assume your 20/20-character drinks 3 potions before it enters combat. That's 30 hp regenerating per interval. Now, the people with excessive and overtly high Constitution are healing while they bash down monsters and other players who "play fair"? I don't understand the balance in that. There are people who neither abuse the possibility to drink potions on the fly, nor have their stats min/maxed; thus this delay double-dogs those player characters.

Jeremy Gems Willowbrook wrote:Forcing fighters to team up to fight big monsters or pick their fights carefully. If you are badly hurt you should withdraw from combat....heal then return. Not stand toe to toe with an enemy drinking potions.

I agree there, but again I think this delay will not encourage people to fight in larger groups (which is hard to achieve with the number of average players online, anyway), rather than it would encourage some to always wear full platemail, use double-axes, and aim for min/maxed stats at character creation.

But anyway, if it's implemented, and you see tons of newbies "clouded" regularly, don't blame me...

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:48 pm

I don't understand the balance in that. There are people who neither abuse the possibility to drink potions on the fly, nor have their stats min/maxed; thus this delay double-dogs those player characters.

no, this delay helps them. it is not about the "drinking before you entering a fight" it is about the "drinking while you are in a fight". See, weak characters shouldn'T be able to defeat strong characters, not alone. But a group of weak ones can do that. But not when the strong character is able to drink dozens of potions while he is sourrounded. And a weak one can't defeat anymore a strong fair player because the weak one drinks dozens of potions against the fair, strong character. you understand? Now, when a weak character meets a strong one and they start to fight, not the fact that one of them is not playing fair and is drinking dozens of potions says who wins, but just the realism, and their skill and attributes (and luck ^^)

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:02 pm

Galim wrote:it is not about the "drinking before you entering a fight"

I was simply saying: that's what it's probably going to be about, with such a delay. Which would again favor the unfair player.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:04 pm

is it possible to change the potionsystem so that the healing effect stops once when the character who got the potion has full energy again?

Lysu Davanum · Post by **Lysu Davanum** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:12 pm

That is already the case I believe (tested it)

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:39 pm

A delay is borderline forced RP, because it is basically saying, "You HAVE to stop in order to drink", when that isn't the case. Secondly, if someone is chasing you, it's generally not a good idea to stop for 4-6 seconds and drink something. If someone was chasing you with a gun and baseball bat, would you stop to drink a pepsi? For those who are thinking about it, I highly recommend you don't do it

Thirdly, fairness has gotten a lot better, people use to always chug when fighting another person, but this dosen't happen that much anymore, it's gotten a lot better, why not give the players the benefit of the doubt if a majority do not do it?

Jeremy Gems Willowbrook · Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:01 pm

How about making potions addictive? (Not something easily implemented)
That way those who use loads of potions run the risk of addiction and the debillitating effects of this.
Introduce a First Aid skill....something to heal wounds quicker than merely eating and resting. Obviously you would have to have a first aid kit to "use" which would prevent you doing anything else at the same time.
Have potions only work if the character is resting....i.e. not using any skills.
Have potions only work if they are placed in the hand. No drinking potions straight from your belt/bag.
Yes this will make combat more dangerous....but only the foolish will stay in a fight they are losing. People would have to fight tactically....pick their fights carefully. And be prepared to run away if it goes badly. If they are too encumbered to get away....hard luck. Should have thought of that before going into the fight.
This would make fighting more dangerous and harder to learn. But Illarion is not supposed to be a fighting game. The emphasis is supposed to be on interraction....therefore fighters should cooperate and work together to fight enemies. Not everyone should be a trollslayer.
Why is there such a need to be the best fighter? Why not be content to be the best fighter you can be...rather than having to be better than everyone else? Isnt that where Powergaming starts?

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:58 pm

I actually greatly agree with the things that are being written all over this thread. It's just that I'd rather wait for a truly sensible balancing change (like the inability to equip/use items when the red targeting reticle is active), rather than take a short-term solution that will widen the gap between fair and unfair players (side-note: refer to "skill-gain" and "powergaming" issues).
And I have to second what Fooser wrote up there:

Fooser wrote:Thirdly, fairness has gotten a lot better, people use to always chug when fighting another person, but this dosen't happen that much anymore, it's gotten a lot better, why not give the players the benefit of the doubt if a majority do not do it?

Kaja Wolfagen · Post by **Kaja Wolfagen** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:40 am

I like the beer hat idea..

And as for helmets and potions the idea could not work im afraid.
It would be complicated to discern the different types of helmets,, as most of th e types apart from the full helm would allow a charatcer to use a potion.

Beer hat all the way!!

martin · Post by **martin** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:06 am

This is some general statement of mine:

Some month ago, when we noticed how the development (or non-development, to this time) was proceeding, we decided that we should never ever think in great leaps. Instead we noticed that we should follow a policy of "small steps" in development, because they are much more likely to be implemented.

Hindering characters to move or use items when they attack someone is relatively simply, I just have to add two if's at certain places. No big deal, however, the thing is:
People may not like it. Some will like it, others won't. Based on our players reactions we will leave it as it is or take back that change. This is a not so easy process, as it is hard coded, that means that we would have to change the whole server code, which is currently NOT possible for several reasons (the serverversion we work on currently has some unfinished parts, especially concerning the new scripting language).
Giving a short delay after drinking a potions just requires one line in a script, that is something that could be done and taken back within some hours.
The other change is something that could be done and taken back within weeks or even month.

You can propose wonderful things, but as long as they do not follow our small-steps-philosophy, they are not very likely to be implemented anytime soon (meaning: next month or even years). They might be elegant, but the problem is: balancing is difficult. Development needs much time.
It will need much time to do it and to undo it again when it fails, and it may fail, as balancing is so difficult. Effects may arise which none of us ever thought of before. And taking it back then.... well.

Please hold that in mind when proposing things.

Martin

Talaena Landessi · Post by **Talaena Landessi** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:53 am

These are the ideas i like:

1) Make is so cant drink potions while you wear a full helm or have a two handed wepon. also have your invintory locked when they are "boxed" during a fight, you have to unbox them to acess invintory.

2) Make it so you have to have the oppenet un-boxed in order to use a potion BUT there should be a chance that the potion has been "broken" thus no regeneration (if an opponet is attacking you)

3) Make it so that there is a say ..three second time where you have to stop to drink the potion OR move and have it be "spilled" while you run thus loosing soem affect of the potion, after the three second you can move and stuff without loosing any effects of the rest of the potion. there should also be a chance of you choking then loosing effect pluse some sliver of life.

4) Lets say your drinking right, your gonna get full (not be able to drink more without feeling sick) if you drink one potion you have to wait..five seconds to use another if you dont a message will appear that says you get sick and you "throw up" the last potion pluse any effect it had left pluse you just wasted another potion if you still try to guzzle another down a bit of heath with drop and it will sybolize you getting even more sick after trying to way over feed yourself

I know someone will say this iss to realistic but i think it is the best way to go. It will make new people want to get trainers and have poeple help them "learn" or jsut be support. Remember realizim is good to a certain extent like say...drinking, walking basic things..but this is still fantasy thus the skeletons..demons...smelly lizards like fooser...

ahem back to buisness.

i would like to see more realism to this game...but thats juts me, im one of many player that have a say in this. PLEASE DONT HURT ME THESES ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS

WOW THIS IS LIKE MY LONGEST POST

p.s. i might edit this becouse im like really tired and i tried to explain as best i could as to whaty i though..its like 1AM here...school tomarro

Ezor Edwickton · Post by **Ezor Edwickton** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:36 pm

I think those idea's are way to complex and unecessary. A simple 2 second lag for drinking a potion is all that is needed.

Gruroka · Post by **Gruroka** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:40 pm

What's the sense of potions make you stop some seconds + potions heal you slowly? If you really have to wait some seconds before doing anything you should be healed instantly.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:51 am

that doesn't really solve the problem, the point is that constantly regenerating during combat is unrealistic and unfair. and with the current system in place if i per say drank a potion it healed me instantly and i had to wait two seconds. i'd still beat whatever i'm fighting.basically i could keep myself around full health and only take minimal damage in the time delay. it wouldnt' solve the problem. potions don't heal instantly because it's unfair and un realistic. that would mean everything would have to hit a whole lot harder and do alot more damage to even things out.

Talaena Landessi · Post by **Talaena Landessi** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:25 am

like i said, these thoughts came to MY mind and thats how I figured it would be agood way to go about it. I just wanted to put MT opinion so i did. i didnt expect ti to be implemented or agreed with and..i guess it wasnt but. Its just thats it all seemed realistic how i thought about it. I agree its compplicated but i just went step by step what would happen in diffrent situations if i was drinking something and trying to fight or do other actions

Sam · Post by **Sam** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:43 pm

that doesn't really solve the problem

What is the problem? People using too many healing potions in one go? Are we talking about all circumstances or just Character - character battles? If we also include not drinking when running then the people who would do this will just "lose their connection" at the critical time.

I still think it should be a rule to avoid drinking potions in a fight with another character. At other times, within reason, it should be allowed. I believe this is an RP issue and should not be hardcoded into the game.

Velin · Post by **Velin** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:09 am

In address to the problem of people "Losing their connection" in a fight. Why not just do the Tibia solution and make it so you can't log out during a fight.

Vindigan · Post by **Vindigan** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:31 am

Why not make the bag/box un-openable during a fight (When you have ctrl + clicked on someone and the music changes)? Only things on your "belt" would be available.

About potions. Why not make it so that you need a free hand in order to drink a potion? This would give 1-handed swordspeople an advantage over 2-handed/Shield users.

"Losing connection"
You could make it so that the player logs off, but the character stays in game for a few more seconds, making people choose more carefully where they fall asleep!

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:00 am

Possible fix RIGHT HERE:

Make it so you cant "stack' the effect of potions. So when you drink 2, it only heals as fast as one.

martin · Post by **martin** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:59 am

Some weeks ago I posted that a lot, if not most proposals are rather useless because auf certain reasons.
In the beginning, this thread was fine. But now... each of the proposals made in the past few postings here was made before and each of them was denied for technical reasons.

Would you please be so kind and READ the thread before you propose something that WAS already denied? I feel pissed.

Martin