Orcs...

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Turonga Mudwater
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Post by Turonga Mudwater »

Grant are you kidding? Some orcs wont do anything but I know I try, i usually dont end in fighting because thats rather pointless but I do try to make people fear orcs, and did you know who Morrt was? He should have made the town fear orcs to some degree (but I think he got banned) also I'm sure you knew Ashburg, He should have made people fear orcs, e declared war on the entire dwarven city for god's sake! not to say he wasn't RPing well, IMO he was one of the best orcs ever played.
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Dyluck
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Post by Dyluck »

The "huge clanking armor and broadsword" argument aside, Troll's Bane is still a multi-race populated and guarded town, so you get used to seeing orcs anyways. If you ran into one in the wilderness, then MAYBE things would be different.

If an orc were to fall into a full "bash smash kill stuff" stereotype mode, then I wouldn't expect to see him walking the main streets of town, doing his laundry, shopping and rubbing elbows with his favourite chums either. So your common townsfolk would probably expect most people they see around town to be fairly civilized, and not infer a particular race to be significantly more innately dangerous than any others enough to be "feared". However, you might be slightly more cautious around particular kinds of people.
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The Returner
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Post by The Returner »

Grant Herion wrote:Why should anyone be afraid of the orcs. They have never really done anything to make anyone afraid of their race as a whole. If say, the Bloodskull Clan waged a long war against the other races then people should roleplay fearing orcs. But in this game, orcs haven't really done anything to earn fear in character hearts.
Your a little to young to remember the orc wars arent you?
Malvita Rynal
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Post by Malvita Rynal »

I'm a bit torn on this. Because I don't like flower-orks (as someone called them the other day) but then again, I DO remember the old orks. I was one of them (bit lesser known, I was a bloodskull for a little bit) and we could just run into town, blow our horrible death horns, and take what we want. Demand food, if the halfer doesn't give it, kill him. It was like that for a while. It was fun doing it, because I guess it was instant gratification, but looking back now, it was moronic. Orks WOULD act like that in my opinion, but it ruins the fun of the other players. It was solved over time... but I think it's the total opposite now. I guess orks (and any bad-alignment character for that matter) will never be able to please EVERYONE. They just play it to the best of their ability. Though... for God's sake... I've seen better RP come out of a coffee cup than from some of the orks of yesteryear.
Pilzbaizza
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Post by Pilzbaizza »

Grant Herion wrote:Why should anyone be afraid of the orcs. They have never really done anything to make anyone afraid of their race as a whole.
...you forgot the Horde.... hey why the hell we have so often attack the town when nobody hate us *g*....
Autor Nachricht Malvita Rynal wrote: Because I don't like flower-orks (as someone called them the other day) but then again, I DO remember the old orks.
I'm fully agree with you!
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Ezor Edwickton
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Post by Ezor Edwickton »

The problem here is that the creators of illarion have created a new type of orc. Every fantasy world has a different type of orc in it, but wether they are big and monster like or human size, they all usually have several similar triats. Orcs are dull miserable creatures, who thrive on distruction. They are not necesarily dim-witted, but are always evil.
What we have with the illarion orc is just bassically a green, ugly, stinky, slightly smaller, human.
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Moskher Heszche
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Post by Moskher Heszche »

Orcs are not evil or even stupid in every fantasy. In the strict, Tolkienesque style, it is so. Sure, but that only covers a certain percentage of the whole.

If we were looking at, for example, various roleplaying games, we would find that those in which orcs are a playable race are more likely to fall away from the Tolkienesque stereotype.

A good example would be Earthdawn, which is loosely based on Shadowrun only set thousands of years before the dystopic Sixth World. Although it is made quite clear that orcs average a lower intelligence, the balance of emphasis on orc characters relies on their tribal outlook, subterranean lifestyle, and their simplicity.

It just so happens that I know one of our developers play said game, and as such, perhaps the orcs were inspired by that source and not by Tolkien.
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The Returner
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Post by The Returner »

I just want to say,

Illarion isen't LOTR, so dont treat it as LOTR.



Theres so much RP's involving LOTR countries and what not, its starting to annoy me.

Theres some people with LOTR names too! But alot of them don't RP like its a damned movie :evil:
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Bloodhearte
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Post by Bloodhearte »

Kasume wrote:I personally, dislike the idea of orcs completely within the game. Personal opinion though. :D
I agree with you here. They're better suited to just be NPC's. All that would be different is that they don't say something giberish-esque, THEN attack you. They just attack right away.
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Avaloner
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Post by Avaloner »

Moonsilver ( http://moonsilver.de/english/races/orks.htm ) wrote: they tend to raid small villages or farms sometimes, if they don't have enough food for the next winter. Normally, orcs are not bloodthirsty, but when they fight with other races, their primary war tactics is to cause fear in their enemies
So the fight with creating fear..that means they casuing fear wherever they can to have to fgith less or?
When do some of us start to read the real source of everything in Illarion?
Kah'rack
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Post by Kah'rack »

I play my orc as orc. If I would play elf, I choose elf. Orc is not cute sweety friendly good hero, it's brutal warrior who don't restrain oneself. He always think only about self, love war. Hate peace and all other weakly characters. So... War and Hate!
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Talaena Landessi
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Post by Talaena Landessi »

I wonder what you all would think about Balcmeg sheesh :oops:
Hermie
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Post by Hermie »

I don't think there is any reason to fear an orc, since if they were going to kill you they'd probably be banished from town, in fact I think some orcs are far too quick to grab their axe for nothing. However, also I doubt a halfling would try threaten an orc.

Orc's aren't particularly barbaric, they still have a culture and society. Fighting is their passion, their way of showing who has more power over another.

Humans and Dwarves would probably show this with wealth or how much beer they can take (or both). Elves would more than likely look up to the knowledgeable where as halflings wouldn't really bother who was more important as long as they had a belly full of food. Lizards ... probably whoever is least sane (estimate based on Fooser) :wink:

Anyway, back to the topic. If an orc wanted to kill something they'd probably make sure it was something they can boast about, like a well known warrior, or some kind of powerful(ish) beast, rather than just a 'stumpy' - never-the-less, if you insulted their strength they'd probably demonstrate it for you :wink:
Sam
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Post by Sam »

If your character is afraid of Orcs then the location only sets the level of fear it does not banish it. Yes the town has a guard but they are not always about. After all, in real life there is a police force but it doesn't mean there are no thefts or murders. Knowing that the Orc responsible for turning my character into lizard pate has been banished from town is not going to make him feel better, or anything for that matter.

Not all characters are big brave warriors, and thank goodness for that, so they will see threats in things a warrior would laugh at. Orcs may have a culture and society but it's one where orcs come first.
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Sskakzk'krr
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Post by Sskakzk'krr »

Kah'rack wrote:Orc is not cute sweety friendly good hero, it's brutal warrior who don't restrain oneself. He always think only about self, love war. Hate peace and all other weakly characters. So... War and Hate!
I don't think there's anything wrong with role-playing like a sweet orc, as long as it makes since to the character's story, history, etc. If there were a reason to act like that (say the orc fell and hit his head a little too hard) then it would make perfect sense to me.

I personally think that orcs should've been NPCs. In my opinion, it's like making demons or skeletons a playable race. :?

I'm sure most would disagree, but that's the way I always see it.
Sam
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Post by Sam »

Well thanks for the smile Sskakzk'krr. I just had this mental image of a group of demons sat around a campfire chatting about the weather and the poor harvest this season :lol: .

I think Orcs are fine as a playable race. They have enough society to make them playable and enough difference from all other races to make them interesting. I think they are the hardest race to play well though. Demons do have the intelligence to be a playable character but they are too rare and too different to make it worth it. Skeletons and all others do not have the intelligence or society to be playable.
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Kaja Wolfagen
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Post by Kaja Wolfagen »

Orcs can be played as the player wishes, if the player wants a peacefull orc you have a peacefull orc, if you wish an aggresive orc, you have an aggresive orc.

I can name a number of halflings who are not just farmers or thiefs.

I can name elfs who cut down trees.

I can name dwarfs who have the morals of pigs.

A character is made by the player, a race does not dictate how the character should be played.
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Darlok
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Post by Darlok »

Kaja Wolfagen wrote:Orcs can be played as the player wishes, [...]
In general we have free hand to think of a characters behavior, but not totaly.
Since there are general discriptions of each race (located on Illarion site and Moonsilver) we have a common base for each character.
Players should use these discribtions as guidelines so we dont get to many "extreme" charcters.

Orcs for example tend to be more agressive in summer then in winter.
Orc tribes tend to raid smaller settlements to stock up thier supplies rather than trading them.
Deadly injured prisoners will get killed infront of other prisoners after a battle.

Doesnt sound that peaceful at all.
So Orcs could be played from neutral to moderate agressive and total agressive, but absolutly peaceful is out of question.
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Bloodhearte
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Post by Bloodhearte »

Kaja Wolfagen wrote:Orcs can be played as the player wishes, if the player wants a peacefull orc you have a peacefull orc, if you wish an aggresive orc, you have an aggresive orc.

I can name a number of halflings who are not just farmers or thiefs.

I can name elfs who cut down trees.
Elves probably should cut down trees. Arrows don't come from behind their ears you know.
I can name dwarfs who have the morals of pigs.

A character is made by the player, a race does not dictate how the character should be played.
Then what's the point of playing another race besides graphics and attributes? They should fit into their stereotype at least a little, otherwise characters can't assume anything about other characters because they can be played in any way.

If you want a "Jack n Jill of all personalities," play a human.

I'm personally discouraged when I see the bloodiest of all races wandering in town as friendly as Barney.
Zordakh
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Post by Zordakh »

"Orc tribes tend to raid smaller settlements to stock up thier supplies rather than trading them.
Deadly injured prisoners will get killed infront of other prisoners after a battle."

This one totally fits my vision of an orc tribe. But im not too sure if you can play this kind of role as actions like this would cut down the freedom of other peoples roleplay. Most players seem to have the opinion that only themselves can decide when their character has to die. Orcs who would kill of injured prisoners would not really work with that.
I think thats why lots of people suggested that orcs should be NPC's. Im pretty sure that people would act up when the orcs would suddenly start to raid trollsbane once a week only to get supplies.
But thats only my vision of things! I myself am all for a strong and ruthless orc tribe. I always thought that the bloodskulls are a tad bit too civilized.
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Darlok
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Post by Darlok »

No where I mentioned that "killing" prisoners results in a final character death.
Basicly you fight, capture some of the weaklings, "poof" some to scare the rest of your prisoners.
Moonsilver also mentiones that orcs let some of thier prisoners go to spread the news of the cruel death of thier companions.
This could be easily combined in game. Poof them, and let them spread the horroid news. :)

Raiding attacks sounds for me like a funny guild event for a orc guild, maybe the "flower orcs" of the Bloodskulls sometimes decide to do so.
Of course tensions beetween the parties Trollsbane and Bloodskulls will raise rather quickly.
But wouldnt this game become boring when every fraction of the island lives in peace with each other ? ;)

No other race then the orcs can cause so beautiful conflics on our island,
it would be a shame to waste this potential by making orcs peaceful.
Pilzbaizza
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Post by Pilzbaizza »

Amen....

...i never understand these peaceful orcs, ....one reason for the Horde was, give the orcs a eviler image....
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Jeremy Gems Willowbrook
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Post by Jeremy Gems Willowbrook »

I agree with a lot of points made. This is my opinion....
Illarion is a roleplaying game...not a combat game...based on interaction and not fighting. If Orc PC's are all bloodthirsty raiders it will not be much fun for non orcs. At the end of the day this is a game and as such has to be fun for all to play. If players want to go around killing anything that moves maybe Illarion is not the game for them. With so few players online most of the time a band of orcs who do nothing but raid the town everyday will soon become annoying and pretty pointless. People will soon stop playing anything but orcs to avoid being constantly attacked by orcs.
Besides isnt that just using "roleplaying" as an excuse to PK all the time?
I think the assumption for Illarion has to be that PC orcs are less warlike and more friendly than other orcs. If they were not they would not be tolerated by other races on the island and would be at constant war. This also would soon stop being fun to play.....especially with so few players online most of the time.
If there are 3 players IG....2 are orc raiders, the other a peaceful character it will not be much fun for anyone. What can the orcs do? Cut down the trees?....fun? kill the other character? or chase him away? Not much fun in that is there? for anyone.
The orcs in Illarion...as PC's cannot be 'Tolkien' type orcs. It just doesnt work. It doesnt fit with the whole principle of the game. If that is the type of character people want to play then other games would be more suitable for them. Anyone who disagrees with this should read the information box which pops up when you launch the client. I dont think.."because I'm an orc" is a good enough reason for killing other PC's.
Lorck
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Post by Lorck »

Jeremy, you have made a very reasonable statement, however there has been many reasons in the game for people to PK. Take all the wars over Northrot, tonz apon tonz of people were PKing each other. I think orcs should start living up to thier name (i need to get better at dat, yub) , they need to start being evil and such. Not fun for the other illa players other than orc? Well then, I believe it would be a nice change of pace (even though I dont only have an orc char but and elf as well). I mean the days have been boring, nothing is really going on so therefor orcs should start doing something. Im not talking about raiding every day, im talking about raiding mabey once a week, if that.
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Darlok
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Post by Darlok »

Dont rush into extremes that fast Jeremy.

Daily raids are out of question, I belive each orc player will agree to that.
Its also absolutly unlogical to do so, even our orc characters will understand this.
Why raiding when the tribes storage is still full and thus risking the lifes of the precious warriors.
On the other hand, orcs know that they life from the works of others, when they constantly take this work away from them these other cannot make thier own living and therefore will vanish from the land.

"PK" or "Playerkill" is a kill on a character without any roleplay reason, therefore no kill in such events can be considered as PK.
Of course exessive kills should be avoided and are forbidden, but I have some faith in the players in this point.


As a side note:
I would not call Orcs "evil", the term "barbaric" would fit them more.
Zordakh
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Post by Zordakh »

I totally agree with Darlok there. The amount of actions should be on a low level. So the fun for other races would not be decreasing.
And i like the idea with the scaring of prisoners a lot.

As i see it the orcs are a necessary roleplaying element since they make the whole politics much more interesting. They are the only race one "could" be afraid of in my eyes. Wars between orcs and other races would add a lot of RP fun i think.

I whish the horde best of luck with its undertakings :)!

And i have to agree that one cant call those kills PK.. referring to moonsilver the orcs are bloodthirsty. So they have a totally fine RP reason to kill. At least thats how i see it.
And just as Darlok i would entrust the orc players with enough sence of good playing as that they wouldnt start senseless bloodbaths.
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Kaja Wolfagen
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Post by Kaja Wolfagen »

Darlok wrote:Raiding attacks sounds for me like a funny guild event for a orc guild, maybe the "flower orcs" of the Bloodskulls sometimes decide to do so.
I did not say orcs should be peacefull, only that they could be, and as for the above comment i do beleive that the bloodskulls recently are all banned from trollsbane, have slain a number of the guard and civilians in recent events and even hunt the Grey Rose.

My only advice would be that if you want to play an aggresive orc, you should have the character as a second character, as your actions of slaying and pillaging wont leave you many friends apart from your fellow orcs, and this would deny you much of the fun this game has to offer.
Zordakh
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Post by Zordakh »

And im sure Darlok amd I enjoy the current happenings!
Im think Darloks saying simply originated in not knowing about the uprising conflict. But Im only guessing here.
But isnt it still understandable? The bloodskulls "flower" image doesnt just originate out of nothing id say.
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Kaja Wolfagen
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Post by Kaja Wolfagen »

They managed to backstab Darlok ;)

But yes the orcs did have a flower image upon the disapearance of the horde. But one matter of fact is that the existance of so orcs is short lived. Pilbazza (( Can never get the name right )) was wandering outside of town, his hood up and appearances hidden, as said by the player, but would you not beleive it, Rose and guard surrounded him within seconds. ;)

It would be nice to have a character such as Darloks and Bloodhearte's back to add to the oppersite end of the illarion ladder, but if wishes were granted beggers would not be beggers.
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Moskher Heszche
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Post by Moskher Heszche »

This is slightly off-topic, but Darren (Kaja for those who don't know the real life name of this dashing and gentlemanly brit) brought up a good point that has been turning in my head ever since I spoke with PO Bloodhearte.

I've had quite a bit of luck with my villain because he isn't the type to seem villainous at first glance, but this is the exception and not the rule. Very soon it's going to become the rule, because having a villain who does anything other than plot for hours on end will get your character killed. The minute your actions go from scheming to villainry, your character will be killed, and again, and again, and again.

What I am getting at is that villains are in a weak position in this game, being not only the minority but also considering that the natural reaction to villainry is to kill the villain. In the days of Darlok, it was much easier to be a cut and dry villain, because Darlok functioned as an umbrella for the whole of villainry. This was not only for those villains that worked directly under Darlok, but for all villains on the island.

Take Moskher, for example. He was not a resident of Northerot, but in the days of Darlok, he would be more likely to do some risky evil-doing because if the guards find out, there is always that chance of living in the North where he's safe from them.

All I can give as a solution to these problems are the following:

1. Villainry is decided to be the domain of the GMs and player-made villains are given roughly the same support they are given as of now; ie. none. I don't personally agree with this on the basis that I would say that although there have been a slew of terribley-played villains here and again by players, when we look at the best villains (in roleplaying, memorability, and frequency of action) they are by far played by player-characters. Who do you choose as a better villain? Darlok or Ashkatuul?Vahkos Nosral or Drahken?

This is not to say that the GMs are not good roleplayers or writers, but player-driven villains can be more intuitive, active, and are more likely to be run into by your average player. Moshran is a scary concept, but I've never met Moshran. Darlok, now Darlok, is one scary mother ****er.

2. Darlok returns. Again, this is an idea I don't like. No offense to Darlok, of course. I loved him as a villain. In fact, if you search through the forums long enough, you'll find that he inspired me to make my first villain. However, I've been there, done that, seen a dozen quests go by to return him, and it would just be irritating to go through it all again.

3. Moshran takes Darlok's place and becomes the villains' new umbrella, putting together a rogue's gallery, sending them on missions, protecting them in case of accidents, and making sure that the villains are intimidating enough that their life expectancy is only a slight bit shorter than everyone else's. I don't really like this idea, either, because as I said above, players can be more intuitive and active. Also, it shouldn't be the job of the GM-played gods to be everyone's mommy.

4. Darlok II. A new villain takes up the mantle, with a small amount of GM-intervention, ala what they seemed to be trying to do with Trystan Gravstyn. However, this villain should be, like Darlok, able to appeal to characters across the spectrum, even as their means are somewhat questionable. Also, unlike Darlok, it should be easier to defeat him, while hard enough to make people think twice about going toe-to-toe with him. Also, I think that, unlike Trystan, it should be a villain that already has a history and connections, so it doesn't seem disruptive.

It should be obvious that this last one is the one that I like the most. However, I think mine is the only villain applicable, and he's certainly not right for the job. He's not scary or powerful, certainly. Perhaps Johann, but it would be nice if the new Darlok could speak English. In any case, this shouldn't be considered a proposal, and more of something that needs to be talked about by the community as a whole.
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