Powergaming

[Moirear Sian]

Well, we all know this is a problematic subject.
I've lately been dealing with some thoughts concerning it.

How about we just "allow" Powergaming, a.k.a. PG?

Yes, you read it right: how about we eliminate the term completely, and incorporate "PG" as part of the RP?—virtually making it possible to label unPGed characters to "lazy/unmotivated", and PGing characters to "ambitious/determined".


Reasons that speak for it:

• • A player actually spends physical time clicking and performing whatever is needed to execute what is commonly understood under PG,
  • We end discussions, snide remarks from people, and talking behind eachother's backs; as well as "pointing fingers" at "PGers",*
  • Players who have alot of online time have an advantage over those with schedules that don't allow them to play oftenly,
  • We enable the possibility that a 3-month-old character can surpass a one-year-old character.

Reasons against it:

• • People who indulge in heavy role-playing are left behind quickly by "jacked up" characters and could feel cheated—however by generally allowing it, they would have nothing left to complain about,
  • Players with tight time schedules (who, hence, can't play often), are put into disadvantage,
  • Players are somewhat discouraged from realistic role-play into indulging in a stereotypical fantasy style scenario, where people chug down potions by the hundreds and can hack their way through hordes of enemies, as well as tradespeople who are able to perform 12 different crafts,
  • New players might be taking in on giving up role-play altogether in favor of not falling sub-par to other characters.

Bring in your thoughts, everybody.

Edit: * The sad thing is that there are people who are accused to be PGers... by other PGers.

[Kasume]

I admit it! I PGed my combat to be OK. Though I can't make a single crafted item!

And I sometimes get bashed.

[Moirear Sian]

Thanks Kasume, you underline my point.

My point is that most people normally define PGing as:
"Carrying out the same action repeatedly over a length of time."

However, they'll also argue:
"Without a certain amount of ability, nobody will take you seriously."

Example:
Does my Blunt Weapons skill go up if I use 12 #me's to show that my character is practicing a weapon-form? Nope.
Does my Blunt Weapons skill go up if I fight 12 enemies with a blunt weapon? Yep.

This very fact, imo, causes the term "PGing" to be underlying a huge contradiction, or even downstraight hypocrisy.

[Nilo]

Well....

Heres a couple thoughts:

When someone comes to the Island, they arent going to be weaker than a fly

However, I dont like the thought of newbies who havent exactly proven themselves as good role players to be more powerful than those who have been around for a very long time.

Now, to a certain extent, everyone powergames... But it is currently rather impossible to powergame... Once you use up all your 'skill points' you have to rest and be idle for them to come back.... at least that is my understanding of it.

Anyway, To an extent, powergaming, if you want to call it that, has been a bit more leanient than previously...

[Moskher Heszche]

*Everyone* does not powergame.

There is, for example, one character I know that happens to have little of any skill at all. I wonder who that is.

[Moirear Sian]

Or the fighters that lose 99% of all fights. Ehrm.

However, I dont like the thought of newbies who havent exactly proven themselves as good role players to be more powerful than those who have been around for a very long time.

David vs. Goliath.

I, for example, find it downright stupid how many RP their deaths and let their characters return. Must have something to do with that. I may stand very alone here on this point, but I don't see why a young/"inexperienced" character should not be able to be more powerful than an old/"experienced" one. Illarion has no "level-system", like let's say, Diablo, or D&D. So why should we follow the silly logic of "My LVL17 character pwns ur LVL6 char, har har!" ?

[Grant Herion]

Powergaming should be allowed unless the GMs actually tell us what powergaming is. How long exactly is powergaming a skill? 30 minutes consecutively? more? less?
Until they give us an exact time how can anyone really say "your powergaming!"

[Moskher Heszche]

They do give us an exact time now. I'm not sure how often you are in the client now, Grant, but there *is* a skill cap.

[Grant Herion]

As in, you can only gain so much skill in a certain amount of time?

[Moirear Sian]

I think so, yes; but I have no clue.

Also, if you don't role-play (i.e. interacting with other player characters/using #me's) along with your skill-gaining, I personally look at it as PGing. However I've also come to learn that people consider this opinion of mine "overrated", or "taking role-playing too seriously" (which I disagree with, as it's the essence of role-playing and this game is still called RPG).

[Konstantin K]

there is a skill cap, but it's bugged.

[Gro'bul]

Take into account, elves have forever to learn however much they want to, unless of some unnatural cause of death. Characters before the 10x system could master anything rather quickly, except for the skills that were not around. I think that there will be alot of changes in the new client that will make illarion fun once again. I am just guessing they will char wipe everyone too. Yes its probobly far too complicated (and not even done yet) for anyone to explain. Patience is a virtue, don't donate all your organs, your not dead yet(or something like that meaning don't give up). Watch tv or something, you don't have to play illarion, but you don't have to quit either. Just make up some lame excuse for you not playing your character for months because you didn't feal like playing.

[Adano Eles]

A sad fact is, and the staff is well aware of that, that the current game system greatly encourages and rewards powergaming. But as far as I know they are working on changing this system from the ground on so powergaming will be useless in the future.

[martin]

Powergaming should be allowed unless the GMs actually tell us what powergaming is.

This is a huge problem. There is no clear definition of what PG is and what it is not. It all depends on the one judging the action.
Standing 5 RL-days in the woods kicking eachothers ass and being afk clearly IS PG.
Training for 10 minutes is not, I'd say, as that is something that could happen realistically.

There is no clear line that distinguishes between PG and non PG.

Martin

[martin]

A sad fact is, and the staff is well aware of that, that the current game system greatly encourages and rewards powergaming.

This is something like a missinterpretation of almost everything.

OF COURSE PG is rewarded. The way someone goes having the fastest skillgain, earning money the fastest way etc. always brings a reward. Whatever the strategy is to get better the fast way, it is PG. And getting better is always a reward. So, no matter what system we possibly implement, there will always be a fastest way to earn money (unless everyone earns money at the same rate) and you will always have advantages of having a lot of money and probably there will always be people following that strategy.

If a strategy you call "PG" does NOT lead to any reward, it is no PG anymore. PG is always the strategy which gives you the greatest technical advantage. Per definition. Therefore it is clear that PG is rewarded. That is simply the definition. We can't break the rules of nature.

Martin

[Djironnyma]

in my eyes PG is training(or working or waht ever) without a real rp reason.....

[martin]

in my eyes PG is training(or working or waht ever) without a real rp reason.....

Getting strong and rich are RP-reasons.
Using that definition, there is no PG at all.

Martin

[Djironnyma]

Sombody how wands to getting strong and rich because of his RP doesnt stand hours by the orgers an figth with them..... "hi guy why do you kill 123 orgers?" "i wand to get strong and rich!" that is absurd

Ich formulier es mal deutsch. Stundenlanges Monsterschlachten mit dem Charwunsch reich und stark zu werden zu begründen ist bullshit. Selbst sehr ehrgeizige Menschen in RL setzen sich nicht hin und rechnen Stundenlang vor sich hin um ihr mathematiches Verständnis zu verbessern. Dem ehrgeizigen Illarion Char bleibt auch weit mehr als sinnleeres PG. Mein Elf zB. den würde ich als sehr ehrgeizig bezeichen (was sein Streben nach Wissen und einer gewissen arkanen Macht angeht), trotzdem gehe ich nicht stundenlang auf Monsterjagt mit ihn. Er macht viele Experimente und Rituale, diskutiert auch viel über Magie, was sich aber alles so gut wie gar nicht auf seine Skills ausübt. Trotzdem ist er IG halt sehr ehrgeizig/strebsam. Powergaming also mit Strebsamkeit (sei es nun nach Geld, Wissen, Macht oder was auch immer) zu begründen halte ich für nichts weiter als an den Haaren herbei gezogen.

[Quain]

Thanks Kasume, you underline my point.

My point is that most people normally define PGing as:
"Carrying out the same action repeatedly over a length of time."

However, they'll also argue:
"Without a certain amount of ability, nobody will take you seriously."

I have met very few people who chose to portrait them selves as "Apprentice" at their chosen skill set, for most cases people would like to be an "Amazing warrior" or "Quickest Shot". Since it is a game everyone starts with few skills, and their claims to those sorts of skills might seem foolish, but if they want to play that character they need to raise their skills... since your character creation isn't considered birth, you have history and should in theory already have some skills practiced, but this isn't really in effect (with the exception of language).

Edit add: By nobody portraiting themselves as apprentice I mean that most don't intend that to be their character, they say they are when they realize there skills don't match up with a master, but their intention is not to roleplay a apprentice.

Practicing something non-stop is not totally unreasonable. If you find someone extreemly passionate about something then they will (likely) want to train and practice at it as much as possible to be as good as they can. If people are disinterested they will probably not train (ingame or out). Think of it as your favourite hobby or interest. Do you spend a great deal of time on it? Probably. All night/day sometimes? Also probably, not always, but sometimes. If anything the complaint should not be that people "powergame" but rather that they stop after their skills have amassed, if they don't stop then they're still following that passion towards whatever they have chosen to devote their time to.

It is also important to remember that this is a game. It's RPG not just RP-Chat. Roleplay is of course necessary, but the end purpose is to have fun and enjoy yourself. As long as someone else is not infringing on your roleplay you shouldn't really try to infringe on theirs by saying what they can't do.

I understand it might be annoying that someone much younger game-wise is much more powerful, but if you're proclaiming yourself ingame to be an "amazing warrior" and then not training much and assuming you should be able to beat everyone, that's not exactly realistic either.

As Martin says, there will always be ways to maxamize skill gain, and it will be annoying to those who don't, but don't let it wreck your game! Online strategy games remind me most of this argument. Most of the number based web-browser games have strategies to "powergame" or maximize the gains and increases by following a set strategy. This does not mean you have to follow it, and may be annoying if you see most others, but it is within their rights to play like that.

As far as the powergaming subject goes... I am surprised to many people like to complain about powergaming while I see nowhere near as many complaining about "stat stacking". Stacking your stats all towards strength and such if you plan to be a warrior is a much worse thing than training constantly I think. How many people are actually born with subhuman intelligence, how many with no common sense (wisdom) and so forth... most people have some of each to varying degrees, and are not super strong and quick and nothing else.

Edit In Response to Damien below:
Having the GM create the character from the description and info given from the person might be the best, although I understand this is not possible due to too many people applying and not enough GMs to do that much work.

So all in all it is a very tricky subject I suppose, but I think it’s most important to remember that it IS a game, and people are able to play differently than you, even though you may not approve, doesn’t make it wrong.

[Damien]

Powergaming starts with the attributes.

Because of these max-attributes, there were done several changes in the past, making it ineffective if someone maximizes attributes (because he needs to cut down others). All attributes are useful now, and all play together somehow.

[The Returner]

Illarion should just incorperate old fashioned dice somehow.

Not with XP and all that, however. I think skills should be hidden from the player at ALL times. This is both good, and a little bad for RP, however it works. If your good at something, you will know your good at something or you could lie.

[Fooser]

When someone comes to the Island, they arent going to be weaker than a fly

Not just that, but a 20 year old (older or a little younger, obviously depending on race and character), or even someone older comes to a new place knowing no occupation? They must have lived a very sheltered life.

[The Returner]

Games have limits.

[Rackere Diplomatre]

Illarion should just incorperate old fashioned dice somehow.

Not with XP and all that, however. I think skills should be hidden from the player at ALL times. This is both good, and a little bad for RP, however it works. If your good at something, you will know your good at something or you could lie.

In RL, you never die and lose your skills, in RL you know what you've done, and what you haven't done for a long time. In RL, you can't try to fight a monster and find out if you're strong enough to beat it - if you die in RL, you're dead, if you die in game, you lose skills again. In RL, you know when you're too weak. In RL, you can do tests and see how strong you are.

In the game, there's only one picture, the same for everybody. If you take the possibility to see through skills how good you are, it hasn't anything to do with reality. If I looked at you as a person, I could guess if you're strong or not. I calso could guess if I'm strong or not.

Try this in a game where everybody looks the same without seeing any skills. - Good luck.

Another possibility: You haven't played the game for a certain time. What were you good at - what were you bad at? You can't guess it like in RL, you need to have a look at your skills.

[The Returner]

If you forget what your good and bad at, then you shouldent be playing a game. Rather you should be testing memory skills, or keeping a journal.

Illarion has a logging function.

[Nilo]

yes we must bare in mind that this is a game..


But maybe we could go about a different approach. Maybe when you make a character you start off with a certain occupation, and fighting or whatever...

this has been proposed many times, but is quite complicated and I dont think the GM's want to be questioned about it again...

[Gro'bul]

Accually not having a skills menu and no book of "self knowing" or whatever is a good idea I think. You can easily measure your skill on how well you perform on certain tasks associated with your skill. You can easily see over time your characters increased skills, because of the failing. Making players keep track of their own skills instead of doing it for them might be an interesting anti-pg measure. With the skill system as is, you would have to play for a while to observe noticable changes with how well your character is in his profession, and how fast he is learning. MAKE the pg'er use his/her brain if they want to know their characters skills. Just an idea.

[Konstantin K]

1. Good Idea. Allow powergaming and get off the backs of people like me.

2. I have to come up for an RP reason to train my character? That's bullshit! He is a maniacal fighter, when he trains, he is so much absorbed into this meditative-transe state, that the very goal of getting better - is his objective. He is a killer and trains to kill. Every RPG is based on skilling up. Real life - also. And I dont know about all of you IRL, but I myself - train daily. In things I want to become - martial arts, volleyball, work, school. Every hour - I train. When I am not eating, not sleeping, not resting - I am training and getting better at what I do. It is realistic, because I want to be good at things in the end of my life, and if you people are not training - it is your own problem of wasting your lives.
Sorry.
I read about PC troubleshooting on Google - I am training, learning.
I do my morning run - I am training.
I take servers apart - I am training.
I read books - learning.

Even when I'm thinking:
I am skilling up, skilling up, skilling up.

When you're not training - somebody else is training... to kick your ass.

3. Monster spawns never change. When you are a new RPer in Illarion - it's fun to do what Moskher says: "Ogres roam in these mountains, let us gather arms and challenge these beasts, because they are planning a menace...". After 8 months - it kind of gets old. Monsters never roam around the map, they only attack you if you are dead-close to them. They are easy to lose from your tail. In time - all RP reasons are already thought of. Monster loot is always the same. No surprizes. You already know that an Ogre will drop this many coins, and this item...
It becomes a boring routine. A training routine.

[Grant Herion]

I play waterpolo. And I work my ass off because we are in CIFs and now every practice means so much. In real life I am absolutely powergaming because I practiced for 3 and a half hours today. I push myself beyond my limits to reach that new level. I expect my character would do the same when he is inspired like I am.

[Rackere Diplomatre]

If you forget what your good and bad at, then you shouldent be playing a game. Rather you should be testing memory skills, or keeping a journal.

Illarion has a logging function.

Think of somebody who haven't played for about 3 month to 1 year. Try it - use your brain.