Regarding: Martial Arts

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Bloodhearte
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Regarding: Martial Arts

Post by Bloodhearte »

There has been discussion about this before, implementing martial arts into Illarion. But the arguement that seemed to prevent this idea was that "Illarion is a game based on medievil Europe, and there is little to no Asian influence."

Martial arts aren't strictly Asian. As a matter of fact, martial arts come from nearly every culture that exists.

European Martial Arts:

-Pankration

The goal of this martial art is to bulk up as much as possible, and use as much power as one can muster to hurt the opponent. Fairly simple, yet brutal stuff.

-Savate

French kickboxing, probably influenced from Muay Thai. The style here was also influenced by traditional fencing, only with hands and feet. This is obvious, as the kicks and punches are shot with thrusts rather than swings, and parrying is a skill that can only be gained by a rather hefty amount of experience in the ring, as is feinting. Rather than "belts" for fight ranking, a certain color of gloves are awarded. Golden gloves are the highest. Unfortunately, like fencing, there exist rules of engagement that can hinder a possible victor.

-Boxing

One of the worlds earliest sports. Even in ancient Greece, the sport of boxing would consist of bareknuckle fighting. They eventually added leather straps to the hands, and mounted metal studs or spikes on the knuckles when they wanted fights to end quicker. For a while, it was too brutal and was outlawed by the Romans, but it made a heavy comeback in London. During the 1800's, bareknuckle bouts were often fought and lasted for an ungodly amount of rounds. Eventually, the Queensbury rules were implemented, requiring fighters to wear gloves and take short breaks after some amount of time. Boxing became very popular in the 30's, in America, but eventually made a decline. This is not to say, however, that boxing is not a popular sport here. Boxers are very physically apt, and study a careful science of slipping, bobbing, weaving, feinting, etc. Unfortunately, rules restrict use of low blows and kicking, and clinching happens very often. A boxer could fall victim to an experienced martial artist or wrestler in this fashion. But often, fist fighting is the instinctive way to fight for a human, as is grappling.

-Wrestling

Also a fairly ancient sport, dating back to Greece. Back then, as sport, there were no weight divisions to speak of. There were points for countergrappling and throwing, also, reverses were encouraged. Groundwork is heavily emphasized, and is a very effective sport considering humans most instictively would want to grapple to subdue an opponent rather than pound his head in. Physical fitness is a must. Striking isn't emphasized in this sport, but strikers can be taken down if close enough.

-Vale Tudo

"Vale Tudo" - Portugese for "anything goes." This isn't a style of combat, really, but more of a concept. There aren't really techniques, but rather, it involves getting two fighters in a ring with minimal protection, and seeing how they fare against one another in a street oriented battle. A very good thing here, for learning actual self defense (and offense). In Vale Tudo matches, there are many cases of grappling and groundwork.

And I'm sure that there are arts I haven't listed.

But, all fighting styles, Western or Eastern, have one thing in common; you're moving the human body in some way, in order to overcome another human.

Surely, there are fighters in Illarion intelligent enough to take into consideration the science of unarmed combat. :?
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Caranthir the great
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Post by Caranthir the great »

Are we talking about the same game here? The one where barfights often involve a set of platemail and twohander? ;)
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Bloodhearte
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Post by Bloodhearte »

Yes, the one where everybody is a knight trained in swordsmanship, and can carry extremely heavy armor 24/7. They probably sleep in the armor as the rust in ingrained into their flesh. :roll:

I'd like to have a character that can break some ribs with a flying kick. :wink:

But hey, we have guns nowadays. Guns, the weapons where you can literally kill something by pulling a trigger and aiming at it. And yet, today, crimes still occur with unarmed mugging. And martial arts still exist today too, simply because arms can't be carried all the time.

Jebus, even Marines are taught Brazilian Ju-jitsu and some kickboxing! :shock:
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Konstantin K
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Post by Konstantin K »

How would you implement a fight where two differently skilled different styled fighters are involved?

It's one thing when your Vale Tudo is 200 and mine is 150. But what if your Savate is 200, and my Sambo is 204, what then? Which style dominates?

A bunch of new parameteres would have to go in.
Wieght, height, age, head defense, groind defense, arm, leg defense and speed, and strength. You'd have to have a parameter for each group of muscles. We'd have our kickers, our punchers, our wrestlers...

Sure is fun for a fighting game, but a bloody hell to program. :D
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Post by Hermie »

I don't think we need to complicate things this much, unarmed fighting should be one skill and you can roleplay whatever moves into it you like. Otherwise you'll probably piss off the programmers :P
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Post by Aristeaus »

There should be a skill for bar fighting which implements the characters indepth knowledge of how to weild a bar stool :p
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Moirear Sian
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Why not just one skill for all that?

"Unarmed combat".

It only comes into use when
• the char's wearing light or no armor,
• the char has no items equipped on the hand fields.

Whether it's some martial arts à la Eastern Style, or slamming someday in the tavern with a barstool, is up to your RP (#me-commands) then.

Also, this could be the way to implement knocking people out instead of killing them:
Unarmed attack reduces target to 0 HP or below :arrow: K.O. target
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Bloodhearte
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Post by Bloodhearte »

Thanks K - I forgot about Sambo and Systema. :wink:

I didn't mean that there should be multiple "skills" per style; just one, called "Unarmed" or "Martial Arts." Style and such can be roleplayed.

The reason why I mentioned those western styles, was to point out that martial arts aren't strictly from Asia, making the "this isn't an Asian game" a poor excuse for leaving out such an implementation (which seemed to be the only excuse I came across).

Also, martial arts would have to be a difficult thing to train. Even today, with our modern technology and further knowledge of human anatomy, becoming a 'good fighter' is something of an experiment because you have to take into account both opponents attributes. When to exercise, how to drill particular moves, when to take breaks, etc. Training unarmed is tougher than training armed.
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Post by Kasume »

Completely unpracticle.
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Post by Hermie »

Fighting with weapons does not differ from fighting without that much, considering (of course) that we are playing a game.

In both you must block attacks, yet try to attack your opponent's weakness. Also, you need to consider what weapon to use against which armour etc.

I could go on, but my point is just this: I don't see why Unarmed fighting would be so much harder than fighting with weapons since both are hard, but in differing ways.
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Post by Moirear Sian »

@Bloodhearte: Then please do make a proposal as in what way it should be harder to train them in illarion. ;)
The only thing that comes to my mind is to make the "skill-gain" for this virtual Unarmed Combat slower than the rest.

Unarmed attacks, in its most basic form, obviously deal blunt damage.

While everybody still pounds on the fact that this game has no Asian influences:
Drop the throwing stars and replace them with throwing knives.
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Post by The Returner »

I've suggested this before.

However, not only was *I* knocked for wanting asian influences, everyone decided to explain how armor would be resiliant to such attacks.

In my oppinion, An attack even done bare handed does do dammage. Also, incorperating martial arts with weapons may indeed be an option here.

Another thing, Not all ancient warriors wore armor, or thick armor. And in many case, those who did were beaten by those without. Think fuedal japan, when the farmers took up the Sai and the art of Ninjitsu. They had little more then robes (Yes, ninja's did sometimes wear bodysuits, but don't forget that this is mostly a stereotype.) And deafeated samurai warriors.

More fighting styles, or at least options would be nice. But some eloboration on your ideas, would also be nice too.
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Post by Dónal Mason »

If roleplayed correctly, martial arts could be effective. That is if the other person doesn't type something along the lines of....

#me doesn't get hurt from a beating because I wear plate armour 24/7.

Or #me isn't hurt because I, the player, think martial arts are weak because they don't involve a big weapon.


Think of it. Martial arts would be fairly effective for mage characters. They could train in unarmed combat for an emergency, such as being unable to use magic for whatever reason.
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Post by Caranthir the great »

And on the other side..

#me isn't hurt because I, the player, think martial arts are super-duper cool and I am really in love with Ninjas and Et cetera because they are Japanese and am unable to see why I couldn't evade all attacks made by my advesary, because the Ninjas in the movies are able to. Not to mention how I can magically find unprotected points from the tin-can opponent or hit him in the eyes (!) or simply punch through his breastplate, like any true ninja.

I haven't got anything against unarmed combat in general, as long as we stay within some general level of sanity with it.
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Post by The Returner »

Using "I the player" in an #me is like asking for a ban anyway ;)
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Bloodhearte
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Post by Bloodhearte »

The Returner wrote:I've suggested this before.

However, not only was *I* knocked for wanting asian influences, everyone decided to explain how armor would be resiliant to such attacks.

In my oppinion, An attack even done bare handed does do dammage. Also, incorperating martial arts with weapons may indeed be an option here.

Another thing, Not all ancient warriors wore armor, or thick armor. And in many case, those who did were beaten by those without. Think fuedal japan, when the farmers took up the Sai and the art of Ninjitsu. They had little more then robes (Yes, ninja's did sometimes wear bodysuits, but don't forget that this is mostly a stereotype.) And deafeated samurai warriors.

More fighting styles, or at least options would be nice. But some eloboration on your ideas, would also be nice too.
Ninja were the equivalent to todays Navy SEALS. I think the most famous regions for backstabbing and diplomacy were the Iga and Kogha mountain areas. They were good assassins, poison makers and spies, but I don't recall any historical record of them kicking the bijesus out of samurai. :wink:

Thanks for that insight though.

In ancient Okinawa, weapons were outlawed from those who were not samurai. However, because outlaws carried weapons anyway, Karate was created for the citizens to protect themselves.

Of course, martial arts back then worked a whole lot better because practitioners were forced to try and survive a hostile world around them. They lived this stuff, so of course they'd be good.

But anyway...

@Kasume

Tell that to Steve Richards or Dave Turton. John F. Springer, a member of the Tong Brotherhood, fought many a time in his life, unarmed (assuming this is both an Illarion and RL statement coming from you).

No, it isn't impractical. If particular people in this game would roleplay right, they would realize that being clad in metal all the time is not only paranoid, but unrealistic and ridiculous.

Who knows? Maybe Lyrenzia will try and outlaw weapons, and citizens will rely on fists for protection? :lol:

@Caranthir

Hopefully, it wouldn't turn out like that. :wink:

Did anybody read my first post? I put up a good list or WESTERN (not Asian) martial arts too.

@Moirear

Unarmed combat would be about the same rate in raising in; but finding the methods for raising it effectively would be more difficult.
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Post by Moirear Sian »

Bloodhearte wrote:No, it isn't impractical. If particular people in this game would roleplay right, they would realize that being clad in metal all the time is not only paranoid, but unrealistic and ridiculous.
Yes, I find it interesting to have - only recently, after a long, long break of having my char only wearing leather armor, simple clothing, and no helmet - have let him worn full plate again in a long time. For the char Sian, freedom of movement is a necessity. A suit of full armor - I think it should be made that attack speed is just so much slower when dressed in full plate, depending on your strength. Something to balance it out. Just makes no sense to me that people in leather should be only mages/archers, sorry. I thought, after all, this is not D&D, and there is not one armor that's superior to the other.
But that's apparently just me, judging on how many people wear chain- or platemail, constantly. In fact, leading to people who tell you of different equipment in their #me-command, while when they drop dead, they drop full-plate gear. Ehrm. To be quite frank, I just find it boring. Especially how people never describe it via the #me-command, and at the same time act like they're some kind of ninja.
Enough said from my side on this issue, I think it's only ranting by now.

Edit: I think the general consensus here on illa concerning metal armor is completely overrated, and still kinda reminiscent of D&D. Think back to medieval times. Armor was not superior. One straight jab from a short sword under and into the armpit of the heavily armored opponent could be deadly. Ram a longsword, provided you have enought strength or dexterity, straight and full-frontal into someone's breastplate, and they have a longsword sticking into or even through their chest.
But I'll stop now. I sense this will only receive a plethora of "critique", which I simply do not agree with. How many of you people have ever ever ever had a platemail on IRL, and tried walking around in it?
I've been inside one, and if you're not some sort of hulk who's already half-way bursting out of the armor, it's not that great to move, truly. And even then, it's not that great either to repel direct attacks. Someone playfully punched me a few times while I was in the ol' rusty knight's armor. Didn't really hurt, but I felt a mixture of fear and surprise when seriously thinking of how simple weapons would penetrate this thing's metal plates like butter, and considering it was hard to move in it, there were alot of seams and cracks in the armor; well, I'm finished.
Alright, so it's fantasy!
So then, let's never talk about realism again. Ever. Thank you.
Bloodhearte wrote:Who knows? Maybe Lyrenzia will try and outlaw weapons, and citizens will rely on fists for protection?
Interesting...
Bloodhearte wrote:Did anybody read my first post? I put up a good list or WESTERN (not Asian) martial arts too.
Well, I did, but I only just now came up with an idea how it could be implemented to have different martial arts styles. Jump to the next paragraph I wrote.
Bloodhearte wrote:Unarmed combat would be about the same rate in raising in; but finding the methods for raising it effectively would be more difficult.
Hah, ironically, it could work like a third "category of special abilities", expanding the choice of "Druidry VS. Magic" to "Druidry VS. Magic VS. Martial Arts". You'd probably need teachers, and it could be "learned" via special books that instruct the methods and techniques.
Either than that, it could also bar your ability to pick up Druidry or Magic, rendering a character into a "Full-combat-character". When you hold down ALT - you can select and execute "special moves". Yeah, sounds a bit like Diablo. But only distantly, if you ask me. However it would undoubtedly reward the "purists" of the fighters, and perhaps the "Mr.I-wear-next-to-no-armor-and-fight-in-melee-anyway", I think everybody might agree with me on this.

Edit: More ideas on this ALT-menu for special moves.
You could combine them like Runes or Herbs in that menu, and they come into effect when the red targeting reticle is active around a target. Also, when in melee, these "combos" could function in a method of that "Rock-Scissors-Stone"-game. What I mean with that is that combination 324 is good against combo 197, while 263 is good against 324, 197 is good against 263, etc.
Might just make melee a bit more interesting than it is now. And more lethal for those who aren't able to execute the martial arts combos.
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Post by Bloodhearte »

Creative ideas you have there Moirear.

I agree that not every combatant wore armor. They couldn't afford the great knight equippment when they were children, and they had no knight as a master. Therefore, they didn't train in heavy conditions due to lack of heavy equippment, and years later, didn't gain the muscle necessary to carry it. Humans adapt to their environments. If you've been picking up heavy things since you were a lad, and if your parent(s) were physically apt, you'll be a strong guy.

Or, you'll be the peasant improvising ways to kill. Like the Okinawans, who made weapons out of kamas and nunchaku, originally farming tools. :wink:

Scythe anybody? Or should you beat the agressor to death with your flail?

I think speed in plate mail should depend on the strength attribute, and/or skill gained. One CAN be fast in the stuff, depending on how many years they've trained in it.

Human anatomy in these time periods in which Illarion takes place, is also something of a mystery. So maybe if the practioner learned from a natural healer, herbalist, nutritionist or doctor, he would expand his knowledge. And if the practitioner has previous weapon experience, he can try and adapt the same principles to bare fists.

Heck, pressure points do exist people. A finger thrust to the throat can be some deadly stuff if trained well. However, a martial artist (a good one) should be VERY precise in his targeting, or it can easily mean defeat. Perception is good for this.

I ran out of thoughts. I really should get my math homework finished within the hour it's due. :wink:
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