How to train combat - the right way

[Alyssa]

Back in Medieval times woman mostly weren't warriors there are a few exceptions here and there true but i wouldn't chastize a person that plays a female character for having combats skills. illarion may simulate Medieval times but it doesn't have to follow everything to the letter, this is rp not reenactment(how do you spell that anyway). so things like these can be expected.

[Sevious Helios]

Actually, this may be totally off topic but, originally, at the beginning of the midieval times, women were supposed to have a big role in society. In some portraits and paintings of the early midieval ages, women were depicted as strong and justified as men and would have been high on the throne, etc. One such picture showed women defending a castle from an army of knights with stones. But somehow over those hundreds of years, they fell down to nothing more than a wife or house maiden, etc, for males of the era. Women have only began to climb up in today's modern society to reach that of the male's roles. Even in songs, women like to make it known they can be independent. (I support them to if they want that ^^) anyway that is what I would like to add here. Forgive me for the off topic insertion.

[Bloodhearte]

-The armor shouldn't be very cumbersome; for example, probably nothing beyond leather, gloves, pants and shoes.

What about strength training? Runners weigh down themselves to make their legs stronger and to make them used to running heavily so that in a real race, they feel light and can run quickly. I believe that boxers might do something similar. If you're strength training, wouldn't you want to use very heavy armour?

As I said, strength training would only be trained by resistance; i.e, lifting heavy things.

As far as I know, we only wear light shoes, trunks, and fist protecting gloves for boxing. Using weights when running won't make you pack on muscle mass; it will simply tone and define the muscles. You'll get a little bit of strength from it, but what you're mostly doing is cutting off any excessive fat the muscles may be surrounded by.

[Kasume]

to you maybe, but it is interesting.

Intresting to us, yes.
Intresting to them, no.

[Val De Gausse]

Also Sevious Women were more educated then men to our standards...reading writing sewing. While men were taught hunting and such. Women could have their own land, but they usually weren't to powerful in politics with the exceptions of queens and such, but still men had much power in politics

[Sevious Helios]

And people seem to ignore that fact that women were more educated as the men ruled and dominated the area through politics. I.E. kings and conquerers. But then there were those women too like Joan of Arc, and Queen Victora...(Well that's a little later in the renassaince but close enough ) I think though, within years or a few decades, the united states will end up with a woman president. Well. I won't say much more on this as I'm going off topic so sorry once again.

And I think these basic standards for training are excellent. I have nothing more to add to them to make them any better. Perhaps someone else does? They all make sense. Good job Vahkos

[Bloodhearte]

Thanks Sevious.

And for those who didn't understand what I said about the nervous system; The Synapse theory. It explains how the baby, uncoordinated with the ball at first, eventually became a Michael Jordan.

In other words? Practice makes perfect. You must learn to parry-thrust-parry normally before you do it with armor, if you wear armor.

[paul laffing]

When I am practicing running, I bring weights with me so that I feel heavier. That way, when I'm in a real race and I don't have weights, I feel lighter and can move faster and freer.

When I am practicing boxing, I will hold weights and practice punching or whatever. My hand feels heavier. As soon as I put the weights down, I can punch so much quicker and more accurately.

Maybe there should be a training sword that is much heavier. That way, when you fight with your regular sword, it will feel light and you can move it quickly in comparison. Do you see where I am going?

[John Malandro]

that will work if u want to strike fast. But what about if you want to focus on parrying, or maybe disarming.
The only way is to train with an experienced swordmaster, and you don't want to wear your armor, those are expensive, and hard to find.

Remember that in medieval times, only the nobles had the coin to own armor.

[paul laffing]

So it all comes down to this: Everyone has a different training style depending on how they want to fight. You can't tell someone how to train, just like you can't tell someone how to play an instrument or paint a picture. Sure, you can set them in the right direction.

[John Malandro]

Maybe there can be some trainers, that for an amount of gold they teach you the kind of style that you want, also controling powergaming

[Grant Herion]

That is what Konstantin did.

[John Malandro]

Konstantin?

[Bloodhearte]

When I am practicing running, I bring weights with me so that I feel heavier. That way, when I'm in a real race and I don't have weights, I feel lighter and can move faster and freer.

When I am practicing boxing, I will hold weights and practice punching or whatever. My hand feels heavier. As soon as I put the weights down, I can punch so much quicker and more accurately.

Maybe there should be a training sword that is much heavier. That way, when you fight with your regular sword, it will feel light and you can move it quickly in comparison. Do you see where I am going?

Of course I see where you are going. But trust me, all weights do is tone muscles for resistance training. It's not a bad idea, but there is practically no way to train for actual SKILL that way; just fitness.

Skill = Experience gained by practicing movements based on the training of your nervous system. The only way to train your nervous system is to be totally unencumbered, and make the exercise as meticulous, loose, and energy efficient as possible.

Again, the synapse theory. One gains ease, skill, and speed in a particular motion or action by practicing it over and over again.

So, let me make a quick "chart" for combat training in the Middle Ages:

Not wearing armor, attacking with lightweight weaponry -
Parts of the body trained: Nervous system/skill
Additions in speed included due to routine, but not strength

Wearing armor, attacking with heavy weaponry -
Parts of the body trained: Muscles/resistance
Additions in strength included due to routine, but not skill

Sure, you could do that balls to the walls combat stuff and not gain very much. I think it's important to make the exercises resemble the actual thing as close as possible, but it should be done correctly.

So how is this done? By practicing finely skilled movements and training the nervous system unencumbered BEFORE heavy physical activity.

Then AFTER that, training in actual heavy stuff should be done.

There is a disadvantage to training skill and not resistance, but there is even a bigger disadvantage to training resistance and not skill.

[Bloodhearte]

So it all comes down to this: Everyone has a different training style depending on how they want to fight. You can't tell someone how to train, just like you can't tell someone how to play an instrument or paint a picture. Sure, you can set them in the right direction.

On the contrary, you can tell them how to train.

But, there is a GREAT difference between telling them how to work their body more efficiently to get better, and telling them how to fight that simply goes against their natural "feel."

For example, telling the exercise routine in an order that is efficient for all bodies due to science. That is good.

And then, telling the guy to swing left handed first when he gets MUCH better results swinging right handed first. That is bad.

I just wish some Martial Artists and Boxers weren't hippies, saying that "any way you WANT to train instead of learning how to do it efficiently is just fine." And then there are the other Martial Artists and Boxers, traditionalists, who say "Do what I say and follow this routine, because some guy centuries before did it too."

[John Malandro]

and how would you apply this to the game, to avoid power gaming

[Bloodhearte]

Sorry if it's getting pretty out of game here.

But MA/boxing is my other hobby outside of Illarion. And I like to talk about it, a lot.

To prevent powergaming? I say use common sense and/or honesty.

But that good ol' route doesn't seem to be working.

So I propose that a combat trainers group, backed up by GMs is created. Only very trustworthy, non powergaming (almost "certified") trainers are enlisted. And they can be sought out in game, and be warned not to be trained by anybody else?

Just an idea.

[John Malandro]

maybe some NPC, that will charge and amount of gc depending on the level of training.

Maybe, put a limit on the level of proficiency you can get by training alone

[Bloodhearte]

maybe some NPC, that will charge and amount of gc depending on the level of training.

Maybe, put a limit on the level of proficiency you can get by training alone

The limit to training alone should be just about no skill at all.

The only things you can do by yourself to make you better at fighting is exercise; strength, technique routine, fliexibility, and that's it. Just physical fitness (aka attributes).

The only way to get good at combat, at all, is to train with something that is alive and attacking you.

[paul laffing]

I guess you're right. I am thinking of modern excercise where the purpose is more to bulk up than to get skilled at fighting. After all, when's the last time you had to defend your home or life with a sword?

[Bloodhearte]

I guess you're right. I am thinking of modern excercise where the purpose is more to bulk up than to get skilled at fighting. After all, when's the last time you had to defend your home or life with a sword?

Hopefully, none of us will ever use a sword for such.

But there is still as much skill needed to be good at punching too. Knowing when to hit, to clinch, to interrupt an opponent's movement, counterattacking, slipping, ducking, swaying...all that kind of stuff.

The best way to train boxing skill is to have gloves that aren't too heavy, but don't do too much damage. And again, probably wearing nothing but trunks and an undershirt.

But yeah, bulking up is pretty important too.

[Moskher Heszche]

We will, of course, delete all characters with a good ranking in "puncture weapons" because of severe powergaming.

What if you play a tailor and you've only used the scizzors in defense of the village when there's suprise attacks? Four or five years later you're bound to build it up?

Also a creepy villain character who uses medieval surgical implements (represented by scizzors and a knife) wouldn't be too bad. I understand that there wasn't much in the way of surgeons, but someone has to remove arrows from the injured in battle.

[paul laffing]

What're you, a wimp? You pull them out yourself!

I'm trying to think back to when I used to spar at my old dojo. We wore protective gear. I guess if you're training with a sword, dull or otherwise, you still want to wear a helmet of sorts. Being hit with even a dull sword in the head will hurt without a helmet. Think of falling off a bike.

[paul laffing]

Right now I'm experimenting with a different kind of training program with one of my other characters. I call it the "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" method. I was thinking about Tarzan. This was a little kid who was thrown into the jungle to fend for himself. He survived harsh conditions and predators to become a very good fighter. If you go out into the middle of the wild with just a little food and some clothes, live there for a couple of weeks, and then find your way back to civilization, you'll be stronger than when you went in and better coped for fighting unconventionally, like against animals. I can't really do this in real life, but in Illarion, anything is possible.

[Grant Herion]

You can do it in real life, just battle stray dogs and cats, and the evil possums!